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Featured Supersessionism and Antisemitism

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Open Heart, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I have moved this out of the Salvation thread, as it was getting increasingly off subject. It deserves its own thread.

    Let's look at what Supersessionism is, and what it means for Israel.

    Supersessionism is the idea that physical Israel is no longer Israel; that the Church is now Israel.
    • God is done with them, they are abandoned.
    • The Jews are now cursed as a people.
    • They no longer have any promises -- all their promises are now promises of the Church.

    There is no question that there are Christians today who hold these views who are not antisemite. There are Christians today who are opposed to the Jewish State of Israel who are not antisemite. The question is not whether Supersessionism always produces antisemitism, but rather if it is nevertheless a causative agent. No one ever asks if cigarette smoking causes cancer in every smoker, yet we know that smoking causes lung cancer.

    There is absolutely no question that this sort of teaching, that God is done with Israel, that its promises no longer exist, that it is a cursed people, opened the door for horrific antisemitism in the Church.

    Let's look at some of the major Christian antisemites, and the reasons they give for their beliefs.

    ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, 4TH CENTURY
    From his seven sermons on the Jews, Chrysostom states that it is because Jews killed Christ and are therefore abandoned by God and are cursed. The term "Christ killer" originates from Chrysostom. Chrysostom is one of the most read Christians in history, infecting not only his generation with antisemitism, but all successive generations.

    “How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Indeed, an entire day would not suffice to tell of all their rapine, their avarice, their deception of the poor, their thievery, and their huckstering.

    Are they not inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil? Jews are impure and impious, and their synagogue is a house of prostitution, a lair of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion a disease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition!

    Why are the Jews degenerate? Because of their hateful assassination of Christ. This supreme crime lies at the root of their degradation and woes. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. Thus, the Jew will live under the yoke of slavery without end.

    God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: “Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!” Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion.”

    ....The Jews are always degenerate because of their odious assassination of Christ. For this, no expiation is possible, no indulgence, no pardon.

    Luther is the most notorious Christian Anti-Semite of them all. He OUTLINED what to do with the Jews, and his outline became what is known as Hitler's final solution, even to the killing of the Jews. Luther says of the non-believing Jew: "I would slap his face and, if I could, fling him to the ground and, in my anger, pierce him with my sword," and " We are at fault in not slaying them." Why? When he was younger, Luther's efforts were kind, wanting very much to convert the Jews. But because they refused to convert, his love turned to bitter hate. You see, in his mind, Jews only had the right to exist as Christians. Israel as a distinct people had no longer had reason to exist -- this is the Supersessionism at work.

    So we see from these two example the following patterns connecting Supersessionism to antisemitism:

    The idea that God is DONE with Israel makes Israel superfluous now. The only purpose a Jew can now find is in the Church, same as anyone else. For Israel to continue to exist as a distinct people outside of Christ is an "insult to God." Jews should either convert and become Gentiles, or if they persist in the unbelief, be restrained by Christian society, have their homes and synagogues razed, be sent to work camps, and killed.

    The idea that God allows Israel to exist only as a cursed and wandering nation to warn us against betraying God, is reason to further punish Israel on God's behalf.

    The idea that ALL Israel everywhere in all times is guilty of the murder of Christ, is used as the reason for cruelty towards and killing Jews aka "justice" on God's behalf, that this communal guilt of the murder of Christ means that all Jews are degenerate and odious, even demonic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
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  2. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    A covenant is a contract between God and man.

    In any contract there are conditional clauses......like so....

    There are several types of clauses that can void the contract and clauses that allows the author of the contract to make discretionary changes by giving sufficient notice or to cease the contract and reissue another contractual agreement.

    Questions...

    Has God made conditional clauses in the old Covenant contract, that would void it if the conditions were not met in full?

    Has God made statements, giving sufficient notice that he will change the contract or to render the old obsolete, by then superseding it by a newer contract?

    It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:32)

    So God in Jeremiah declares that the contract he made with Moses and the Israelites has been voided and that he gives them sufficient notice that he has the right to change the Old contract with a New contract.

    So from a contractual legal framework God has declared that the Old contract has been voided and that he is giving sufficient notice in order to supersed it with another newer one.

    Now the Bible provides a second witness which is in Hebrews. The author of Hebrews is writing on behalf of the entire 1st century apostolic Jewish church in Jerusalem and he ratifies the change in contract....


    7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant/contract, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant/contract with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
    and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant/contract I will establish with the people of Israel (Hebrews 8:7-10)

    Since the 1st century Jewish apostolic church said that the old covenant is no longer in effect and was voided and replaced with a new contract/covenant, whilst citing Jeremiah the prophet, then it is crystal clear that the Jewish church in Jerusalem ratified and acknowledged the change before all of Israel.

    There is only one contract and the apostolic Jewish church acknowledged it from way back in the 1st century.
     
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Some portions of the covenant are unconditional, made to Abraham, such as his descendants having the Promised Land. Other parts, as per what God said to Moses, are conditional, such as the right to live on the Land is connected with observance of the Torah. For example, there was a time Israel kept resorting to idolatry, and God sent her into captivity. But the Promised Land still belonged to Israel and she could return to it. IOW, The land is always Israel's, even when they live in exile due to not keeping the Law.

    No where does it say that God would violate the Covenant in general, since it does not specify conditions where that would happen. No where does it ever say that if Israel rejects the Messiah (which she only does because God places a veil over her eyes) that God would cancel her covenant. This idea is a heresy of Supersessionism.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  4. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Your statement doesn't take away the right of the sovereign God to void his contract.

    Without going into the details of conditions, I think we need to focus on what the 1st century apostolic Jewish church in Jerusalem believed, as recorded in Hebrews 8:7-10.

    A covenant is a contract, if even one condition is not complied with, God reserves the right to void the contract. The Jewish church believed that the old covenant was voided and superseeded by the new.

    I believe and agree with the 1st century apostolic Jewish church.
     
  5. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    What I said is that there is no condition under which the entire contract may be voided. This is why the Bible never states the contract is voided. The closest it comes is when God blurts out in anger 'I divorce you.' However, if you read on, he RECONCILES with Israel. The whole point of the book of Hosea is that God is faithful to Israel despite her unfaithfulness just as Hosea is faithful to his wife despite her prostitution.

    There is a condition under which a small part of the contract may be temporarily suspended: If Israel does not keep the commandments (such as when she was idolatrous) she may not live on the land. It is very clear that the consequence is exile, not the breaking of the covenant.
     
  6. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    Unfortunately, that's not really what the WHOLE of the Old Testament says, Open Heart. It says that when the Prophet to come arrives, as promised in Deuteronomy, those who refuse to listen to Him will have to account to God directly for their refusal. Jesus was that Prophet; and of course, as it turns out, Jesus was also MORE than the Prophet.

    So, in accordance with the Blessings and the Curse of the Law, Jewish people were displaced from their Land, JUST as God said they would be, and just as Jesus confirmed they would be. But, they weren't displaced merely for 'killing Christ'--for WE ALL KILLED CHRIST. No, the Jewish people got displaced (by the Romans) due to their refusal to count Jesus as the Prophet to come and as the long awaited Messiah, but not solely because they played a part in the death of Jesus.

    Actually, the Law/Old Covenant does imply conditions for receiving the Blessing of the Old Covenant which are evident to anyone who takes the time to read the entire Law, Prophets and Writings.

    And if non-Christian Jewish people have suffered during the last 2,000 years, most of that is in fulfillment of the Curse of the Law that has come since they have ignored God's Will as delineated in the very same Law of which they are the key Stewards, an ongoing stewardship of which Paul the Apostle made clear in his letter to the Romans.

    They are also the beneficiaries of God's beneficence which He also said He would deal out at the end of the ramifications of the Curse of the Law, also a part of the ongoing aspect of the First Covenant given under Moses.

    Obviously, it is much better (actually imperative) to move out from the First Covenant and into the New Covenant mediated by Jesus, who is the Jewish Messiah and Lord of all peoples.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  7. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Did the 1st century Apostolic Jewish church in Jerusalem promote what you have stated in your post?

    No matter how much I put myself to harmonise what you said with the Hebrews writer, I can't do it friend, it is not even remotely possible.

    I have to adhere to the evidence of a primary apostolic Jewish witness who states.....

    6But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

    7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people... (Hebrews 8:6-8)

    The Jewish apostle is writing on behalf of all the Jewish church in Jerusalem. He clearly states that a new high priest has been installed, who is Jesus Christ, who is made the one and only mediator of the new covenant that is superior and better than the old one, because it is established on BETTER promises.

    The word superior and better than the old covenant/contract explicitly declares the superior and better contract had from the 1st century replaced the weaker and inferior covenant/contract.

    So with the changing of the high priest from a temporal earthly one under the inferior old one to that of a permanent, heavenly and non transferable kingly Melchizedech high priest office of Jesus Christ, the Hebrews author isn't promoting the old in any way shape or form.

    According to the Hebrews author the old inferior contract was replaced by a superior and better contract under a completely different priesthood which declared the high priest Jesus Christ as the sinless mediator between man and God.

    The Hebrews author by citing Jeremiah the prophet, even puts evidence forth that God gave them plenty of notice to dissolve the old contract and to replace it with the new one, by stating.....

    7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
    “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    9It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,

    God anounced it way back then and we know that God proclaims his intentions well before he intends to do it. In fact from his announcement all the way to the 1st century, where he threw out the temporal and transferable old high priesthood office and evidence of how Jesus drilled them and called them hypocrites before telling them, look now your house is left onto you desolate, meaning abandoned.

    So by the ample time given, to the way Jesus dealed with the religious authority of his time and the statements he made against them, there is a sobering underlying body of evidence that the old contract could not stand anymore and God had under contractual agreement has the right to nullify the contract, whilst citing that it had been voided and at the same time God had given ample time for Israel, before finally retracting the contract and replacing it with a superior and better one and one which is under a superior and better high priest Jesus Christ, who lives forever, who is indestructible life.

    God allowed Israel to their promised land fulfilling all his promises and he by his mercy planned to bring in the SEED of a better and far superior PROMISE Jesus Christ and to open a completely different contract, with different conditions and under a completely different priesthood.

    The question as to which high priest the Hebrews author acknowledged, is quite self evident, since the old priesthood existed side by side, yet the 1st century apostolic Jewish church were loyal to the one and only high priest Jesus Christ and acknowledged openly that they are now all under a new superior and better contract/covenant that was established on far better promises.

    There could not have been a choice between two contracts, because the Hebrews author doesn't present a notion of choice between an inferior and an superior one, because they all served under the new covenant.

    Again I am supportive of the 1st century apostolic Jewish church in Jerusalem and nothing can sway me from the body of evidence. Offcourse you can deflect the issue and cite other epistles to support the old contract, but this doesn't in any way take away anything from what the Hebrews author writes about on behalf of all the church in Israel, which was declared before all the congregation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  8. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Show me where it says that the Covenant will end if Israel will refuse to acknowledge the Messiah.
     
  9. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Give me the verses from the Torah, where the contract is made, which indicate that the Covenant will end if certain conditions are not met.
     
  10. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Yes, absolutely. The Messianic Jewish community in Jerusalem still observed the Mosaic Covenant. Acts 21:20 Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the Torah."
     
  11. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    I didn't say the covenant would 'end,' Open Heart. Try not to read into what I'm saying, Sis!

    What I'm basically saying is that the message of the Old Testament is that being "Jewish" isn't enough, which is clear to anyone reading the Old Testament. The Covenant remains.... .....it is still in force ....which isn't good news for those who reject Jesus as Prophet, Angel of God, and Messiah.

    Does this make more sense?

    Peace,
    2PhiloVoid
     
  12. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    I new that you would eventually pull this rabbit out of the hat....I did say that you would do this....

    As declared by the Hebrews author who is speaking on behalf of all the 1st Century Apostolic Church in Jerusalem, do you believe...

    Question....
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Debatable. He never enacted any of the nonsense he wrote. He was drawing off of Church history. You left out a lot of history in your OP. Here's more:

    Anti-semitism and anti-judaism in the Roman Catholic Church

    Catholic Timeline on Antisemitism
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Are you defending Supersessionism or not?
     
  15. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I fully accept the book of Hebrews which declares the Mosaic Covenant inferior to the New Covenant.

    However, it never says that
    • The church is now Israel.
    • That God is done with Israel
    • The Jews are now cursed
    • They no longer have the promises -- all the promises now belong to the Church.
     
  16. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    No, I'm not really defending Supersessionism, per say. I do think the Old Covenant is still in force. But, that is not a good thing when part of the Old Covenant was the requirement to accept the Prophet and Messiah to come, when He finally did arrive. And He has arrived, 2,000 years ago, nearly, in fact.

    This is not 'anti-semitic' drivel. This is simply spotting was God Himself placed as parameters for the Blessings and Curses within the Old Covenant, parameters that both Jewish people and Christian readers of the Law, Prophets and Writings like to skip over or ignore.

    In fact, I've even heard a few Jewish Rabbis say something to the effect that "God wouldn't really enact the Curses; those are just there as insinuations to get our attention, but He wouldn't really act upon them."
     
  17. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    He is responsible for the acts of all who acted out of inspiration from his writing, including most of those Protestants that participated in the Holocaust.
     
  18. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    two Jews, three opinions.
     
  19. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    I didn't say I've ONLY heard two Jewish Rabbis. The point is that there are some who think this, to their detriment, I'm afraid.

    Do you understand what I'm saying, Sis?
     
  20. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I understand, and I share your sentiment. I'm just saying that you'll find all sorts of different opinions among Jews. Don't take it to heart. Reform Jews in particular will say things that boggle my brain. I've learned just let it go in one ear and out the other. They're family for me, and you love family no matter what! :)
     
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