Supersessionism and Antisemitism

[Open Heart]

Even Abraham recognized HIM before an earthly priesthood (the house of Levi) had even been established

Melchizedek WAS a priest. Just not a levitical priest.

 

[miknik5]

Melchizedek WAS a priest. Just not a levitical priest.

Melchizadek was a shadow and figure pointing to CHRIST

 

[Open Heart]

It's only IN CHRIST that the veil is removed and one can even see the KoG (the GLORY of GOD in the face of JESUS CHRIST)

You have a habit of replying without responding to the text that you quote.

 

[miknik5]

Did you also think that Zerubabbel was actually the one who laid the foundation and would complete the HOUSE for GOD?

 

[miknik5]

You have a habit of replying without responding to the text that you quote.

I responded off your post. You don't understand what I am responding to after reading your own post?

 

[miknik5]

offering up "another sacrifice" is as strange Fire before GOD

 

[AlexDTX]

Supersessionism is the idea that physical Israel is no longer Israel; that the Church is now Israel.

This is a difficult topic to address. On the one hand we have the faithfulness of God and on the other hand the rejection of God in Jesus Christ by the Jews. What is God's obligation? We know that the Lord's promise to Abraham was without condition other than Abraham believed God. The promise was righteousness by faith through the Messiah who would come from his seed. This promise was passed to Isaac and won by Jacob. However, there is no clear statement that it goes beyond the patriarchs apart from our knowing that the Messiah was a descendant of Judah.

This is not the same thing as the Mosaic covenant which was never intended as a means of righteousness, but a means of magnifying sin. A covenant that was repeatedly broken by national Israel and never kept individually by any individual since it was impossible to keep.

After rejecting Jesus and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD then the finally scattering of the Jews into the diaspora in 140 AD following the Bar Kochba revolt, Jews, like the rest of Israel, became mixed with the gentiles in their habitations.

The Sephardic Jews apparently crossed north Africa settling in Spain, but the big mystery is where did the Ashkenazi Jews come from? Arthur Koestler, an Ashkinazi Jew, wrote a compelling book called "The Thirteenth Tribe" explaining the history of Khazar Jewry, which is now known as Askenazi Jewry which makes up 90% of world Jewry today, who were Russian steppe Turks that had an empire between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. In 900 AD the king of the Khazars was given a choice between Byzantium Christianity or Islam. Since both believed the Old Testament to be inspired by God, he chose to make his nation Jewish.

Of course there has been intermarriage of gentiles with Israel all throughout the Bible and all throughout the Diaspora. So is there a genetic line of Judah still existent? Is God obligated to honor a culture based upon the Talmud and Kaballah? I don't know.

One thing I do know is that there are clear promises in prophesy that Jesus will return to Jerusalem with the Church at the end. So whether He is coming back for a genetic line or a culture or simply to take the land as his own for his throne, I don't know.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have moved this out of the Salvation thread, as it was getting increasingly off subject. It deserves its own thread.



Let's look at what Supersessionism is, and what it means for Israel.

Supersessionism is the idea that physical Israel is no longer Israel; that the Church is now Israel.

• God is done with them, they are abandoned.
• The Jews are now cursed as a people.
• They no longer have any promises -- all their promises are now promises of the Church.

There is no question that there are Christians today who hold these views who are not antisemite. There are Christians today who are opposed to the Jewish State of Israel who are not antisemite. The question is not whether Supersessionism always produces antisemitism, but rather if it is nevertheless a causative agent. No one ever asks if cigarette smoking causes cancer in every smoker, yet we know that smoking causes lung cancer.

There is absolutely no question that this sort of teaching, that God is done with Israel, that its promises no longer exist, that it is a cursed people, opened the door for horrific antisemitism in the Church.

Let's look at some of the major Christian antisemites, and the reasons they give for their beliefs.

ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, 4TH CENTURY
From his seven sermons on the Jews, Chrysostom states that it is because Jews killed Christ and are therefore abandoned by God and are cursed. The term "Christ killer" originates from Chrysostom. Chrysostom is one of the most read Christians in history, infecting not only his generation with antisemitism, but all successive generations.

“How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Indeed, an entire day would not suffice to tell of all their rapine, their avarice, their deception of the poor, their thievery, and their huckstering.

Are they not inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil? Jews are impure and impious, and their synagogue is a house of prostitution, a lair of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their rites are criminal and unchaste; their religion a disease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition!

Why are the Jews degenerate? Because of their hateful assassination of Christ. This supreme crime lies at the root of their degradation and woes. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. Thus, the Jew will live under the yoke of slavery without end.

God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: “Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!” Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion.”

....The Jews are always degenerate because of their odious assassination of Christ. For this, no expiation is possible, no indulgence, no pardon.

​

Luther is the most notorious Christian Anti-Semite of them all. He OUTLINED what to do with the Jews, and his outline became what is known as Hitler's final solution, even to the killing of the Jews. Luther says of the non-believing Jew: "I would slap his face and, if I could, fling him to the ground and, in my anger, pierce him with my sword," and " We are at fault in not slaying them." Why? When he was younger, Luther's efforts were kind, wanting very much to convert the Jews. But because they refused to convert, his love turned to bitter hate. You see, in his mind, Jews only had the right to exist as Christians. Israel as a distinct people had no longer had reason to exist -- this is the Supersessionism at work.

So we see from these two example the following patterns connecting Supersessionism to antisemitism:

The idea that God is DONE with Israel makes Israel superfluous now. The only purpose a Jew can now find is in the Church, same as anyone else. For Israel to continue to exist as a distinct people outside of Christ is an "insult to God." Jews should either convert and become Gentiles, or if they persist in the unbelief, be restrained by Christian society, have their homes and synagogues razed, be sent to work camps, and killed.

The idea that God allows Israel to exist only as a cursed and wandering nation to warn us against betraying God, is reason to further punish Israel on God's behalf.

The idea that ALL Israel everywhere in all times is guilty of the murder of Christ, is used as the reason for cruelty towards and killing Jews aka "justice" on God's behalf, that this communal guilt of the murder of Christ means that all Jews are degenerate and odious, even demonic.

I think what the problem is that Supersessionism is seen as a diss to Israel when the belief is rooted in that God has brought both sheep pens under One Shepherd, which is Christ and they believe that is the Church.

So instead of thinking that Israel is getting dissed, it should more be thought of that Israel is now thought of as being part of the entire sheep pen under Christ.

What I think is abhorent is bringing racial hatred and motivations into this that do not exist. It is a clearly theological position, not one of hate or exclusion of a people for any racial reason.

Now there may be anti-semites, but to categorize an entire theology as being racially motivated is in direct contrast to ALL that Christ stood for and the two commandments that Christ left us with which is to love God and to love each other.

What I see is reverse racism in that some people are making this a racial issue or saying people are anti-semite for their own causes. To maybe protect their own people or to make one race superior to another.

The Hebrews are God's chosen people and were to be a light to the world, but that did not happen. Now Christ has plans for both of His sheep pens being brought together under Himself.

Christ still has plans for Israel of course and they will always remain His chosen people and that is that. But to put gentiles in a position that they are racist or to ilicite hate over theology is just as wrong and divides CHrist Kingdom by those who do it.

What is needed is an honest assessment of sciptures and for us each to see that God has His role for each of us in His plan. Not to fight about whose role is larger or which role is diminished or any of that.

When anything is made personal, then that is when emotions and pride get brought into the picture by any side. We are all servants of the Most High God and have our roles in doing His will. We need to stop making it personal.

 

[miknik5]

This is a difficult topic to address. On the one hand we have the faithfulness of God and on the other hand the rejection of God in Jesus Christ by the Jews. What is God's obligation? We know that the Lord's promise to Abraham was without condition other than Abraham believed God. The promise was righteousness by faith through the Messiah who would come from his seed. This promise was passed to Isaac and won by Jacob. However, there is no clear statement that it goes beyond the patriarchs apart from our knowing that the Messiah was a descendant of Judah.

This is not the same thing as the Mosaic covenant which was never intended as a means of righteousness, but a means of magnifying sin. A covenant that was repeatedly broken by national Israel and never kept individually by any individual since it was impossible to keep.

After rejecting Jesus and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD then the finally scattering of the Jews into the diaspora in 140 AD following the Bar Kochba revolt, Jews, like the rest of Israel, became mixed with the gentiles in their habitations.

The Sephardic Jews apparently crossed north Africa settling in Spain, but the big mystery is where did the Ashkenazi Jews come from? Arthur Koestler, an Ashkinazi Jew, wrote a compelling book called "The Thirteenth Tribe" explaining the history of Khazar Jewry, which is now known as Askenazi Jewry which makes up 90% of world Jewry today, who were Russian steppe Turks that had an empire between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. In 900 AD the king of the Khazars was given a choice between Byzantium Christianity or Islam. Since both believed the Old Testament to be inspired by God, he chose to make his nation Jewish.

Of course there has been intermarriage of gentiles with Israel all throughout the Bible and all throughout the Diaspora. So is there a genetic line of Judah still existent? Is God obligated to honor a culture based upon the Talmud and Kaballah? I don't know.

One thing I do know is that there are clear promises in prophesy that Jesus will return to Jerusalem with the Church at the end. So whether He is coming back for a genetic line or a culture or simply to take the land as his own for his throne, I don't know.

Thank you
That further stresses the TRUTH of disregard of Haggai 2 and Ezra 3 when the Jews of Israel begin to consider rebuilding the temple

Unclean (priestly proven) bloodline

Considering that there is only One clean priestly bloodline

"HE will magnify THE LAW and make it honorable

HE did
All based on love and accountability to GOD and to one another

 

[ToBeLoved]

Melchizedek WAS a priest. Just not a levitical priest.

Melchezedek is a priesthood. Christ's priesthood. Melchezedek was a foreshadow of Christ, without father or mother.

 

[miknik5]

Melchezedek is a priesthood. Christ's priesthood. Melchezedek was a foreshadow of Christ, without father or mother.

Mekchizadek is ONE and was a shadow of THE ONE who is both THE FOUNDATION and CAPSTONE of THE HOUSE

Everyone IN THIS MELCHIZADEK
are being built up IN
HIM and are just "living stones" a priestly people offering the acceptable sacrifices before GOD which is their bodies in service to the NELCHIZADEK who entered in through the TRUE VEIL which is HIS BODY and by HIS BLOOD purchased us at a costly price

Either one enters in through THIS MELCHIZADEK or he remains outside THE DOOR unto THE HOUSE for GOD

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[miknik5]

Can someone please explain this better? Or in more detail.

You don't know how to read Haggai 2
You don't know the story of Ezra who would not allow those who could not provide proof of a pure priestly line to have part in the building of the temple

And tobthose eho has intermarried, these had to send away their wives and children before they could have part in anything pertaining to the temple

My yp mentuon thst thrpugh the prophet HAGGAI 2 GOD already declared everyone. The high priests and all the nations before HIM

UNCLEAN

How does one get around this and build a temple for GOD?

 

[jerry kelso]

I don't see where it says this at all. Actually romans 7 says, " So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

I've broken down your post into smaller more manageable portions. I notice you have a tendency to respond in lengthy posts, doing a lot of repeating, and getting a bit off topic. Lengthy posts are okay for an OP or once in a while, but not on a regular basis. Please be so kind as to make your posts succinct so that we can have a good dialogue.

 

[jerry kelso]

I don't see where it says this at all. Actually romans 7 says, " So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

I've broken down your post into smaller more manageable portions. I notice you have a tendency to respond in lengthy posts, doing a lot of repeating, and getting a bit off topic. Lengthy posts are okay for an OP or once in a while, but not on a regular basis. Please be so kind as to make your posts succinct so that we can have a good dialogue.

open heart,

1. Roman's 7:1-4; illustration of woman bound to the law as long as her husband is alive.
She is not free from the law of her husband till he dies.
If she is married to another at the same time to another she shall be called an adulteress.
This is why we must be dead to the law in order to be alive to Christ and his finished work.
This is why living the Old Covenant of the Mosaic ethic in its whole context and mentality causes the struggle of the law of sin and death taking advantage of the commandment and cause self effort and the frailty of man to sin more than overcoming sin.
The law of sin and death has been done away with by the law of the Spirit which is New Covenant.
This doesn't mean that we have no battle of the flesh against the Spirit but we are to be overcomers through Christ and the NC better promises, not the weaknesses of the law of Moses.
Jerry kelso

 

[ToBeLoved]

You don't know how to read Haggai 2
You don't know the story of Ezra who would not allow those who could not provide proof of a pure priestly line to have part in the building of the temple

And tobthose eho has intermarried, these had to send away their wives and children before they could have part in anything pertaining to the temple

My yp mentuon thst thrpugh the prophet HAGGAI 2 GOD already declared everyone. The high priests and all the nations before HIM

UNCLEAN

How does one get around this and build a temple for GOD?

Never mind. I can read fine. No help needed.

Blessings to you.

 

[jerry kelso]

Yes, Jews keep the 613, but they do not have to keep them perfectly to be "righteous." Breaking even one law makes one a sinner. But It has ALWAYS been that with a contrite spirit and broken heart, one can return to God.

The priesthood of Melchizedek always existed alongside the Levitical priesthood -- it was a universal rather than strictly Jewish priesthood.

When you give me a scripture source, you have to be more specific than three chapters. I can't browse three chapters looking for whatever you are vaguely referring to. Please give chapters and verses. Thanks!

open heart,

1. Under the law of Moses one had to keep and live the law to be righteous.
Romans 10:5; For Moses describe th the righteousness of the law (Moses) that the man which doeth those things shall live in them.

2. There were death penalty sins for certain commandments such as adultery had stoning and was basically a mandatory law. They had atonement offerings but we have direct access to Christ for forgiveness. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Matthew 12:31-32.
Whereas they could sin one sin and lose their salvation Ezekiel 18:24. The righteous turning away from their righteousness and committeth sin involves not doing the commandments.
One has to change masters in order to be apostate which can be a process not because of sinning one commandment and being destroyed right then.

3. Some believe Melchizedek was an anthropomorphism and others as a real person.
Either way, Hebrews 7 shows the difference between the two priesthood and that the Levitical priesthood was changed and replaced by the Melchizedek priesthood through Christ which didn't happen until Calvary.
Melchizedek priesthood alongside the Levitical priesthood? Talk about vague, at least I gave scripture.
Be specific if you think I am being vague. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

I'm not sure what you mean. 2 Corinthians 3:13-16 doesn't say that the Law is now aboliished.

open heart,

1. 2 Corinthians 3 context is about the differences of being able ministers of the New Testament vs. the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which Glory was to be done away.
Written and engraven in stones was the the commandments was sort of like a summation of the law.
This is the same as verse 13 and why they are blind in the reading of the Old Testament and when they read Moses the veil is upon their heart. Moses teaching is the Torah.
The last part of verse 13; to the end that was abolished was the Ten Commandments v 7 which was the Old Testament v15 and Moses read being the cause of the veil preventing fro seeing the truth v15.
One has to learn context and connect the dots. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

You can't change a contract unless both parties agree. Where in the OT did this happen? Chapter and verses please.

open heart,

1. The law came because of sin. Galatians 3:19. Israel got upset of having to do commandments etc.
I wouldn't equate this necessarily as the same as a covenant to bond such as David and Johnathon or Abraham with God who believed freely.
The law of Moses came because of sin and was mandatory and they had no choice.
This is why you have to separate the covenant of Moses and the law of Moses though they are both the same which I have already shown scripture to prove that. Context! Jerry kelso

 

[AlexDTX]

I think what the problem is that Supersessionism is seen as a diss to Israel when the belief is rooted in that God has brought both sheep pens under One Shepherd, which is Christ and they believe that is the Church.

So instead of thinking that Israel is getting dissed, it should more be thought of that Israel is now thought of as being part of the entire sheep pen under Christ.

What I think is abhorent is bringing racial hatred and motivations into this that do not exist. It is a clearly theological position, not one of hate or exclusion of a people for any racial reason.

Now there may be anti-semites, but to categorize an entire theology as being racially motivated is in direct contrast to ALL that Christ stood for and the two commandments that Christ left us with which is to love God and to love each other.

What I see is reverse racism in that some people are making this a racial issue or saying people are anti-semite for their own causes. To maybe protect their own people or to make one race superior to another.

The Hebrews are God's chosen people and were to be a light to the world, but that did not happen. Now Christ has plans for both of His sheep pens being brought together under Himself.

Christ still has plans for Israel of course and they will always remain His chosen people and that is that. But to put gentiles in a position that they are racist or to ilicite hate over theology is just as wrong and divides CHrist Kingdom by those who do it.

What is needed is an honest assessment of sciptures and for us each to see that God has His role for each of us in His plan. Not to fight about whose role is larger or which role is diminished or any of that.

When anything is made personal, then that is when emotions and pride get brought into the picture by any side. We are all servants of the Most High God and have our roles in doing His will. We need to stop making it personal.

We should not be confused into thinking that there are sheep pens: Jew and Gentile, for neither are the sheep pen of the Lord. There is only only fold which is in Christ. He is the door of the fold and any that try to get in any other way are thieves and robbers.

For any Jew or Gentile to be in that one fold they must trust in Jesus Christ.