Supersessionism and Antisemitism

[miknik5]

What is this whole tribal thing? Is it even valid after Yeshua? What separates a Jew from a Gentle under Yeshua?

It's not valid after Yeshua
The whole tribes of Israel and the inheritance (birthright) passed down to each first born son from generation to generation was simply to point us to THE TRUE SON over the WHOLE HOUSE for GOD

 

[miknik5]

Please forgive me ToBeLoved, by my uptight post to you

Not that this excuses my shortness in my post but I thought it was OpenHeart I was responding to

 

[AlexDTX]

I am a Jew who believes the Gospel. That is due to the mercy of God. For my fellow tribesmen, they are not capable of hearing it because God has closed their eyes and ears. And if they are incapable, they are not responsible.

Baloney again. How is the White Throne Judgment just if God is the one who closes the eyes? Such expressions are a negative way of saying that God has withdrawn, and just as nature abhors a vacuum, so does the devil, where God departs the devil steps in. We are all accountable to God and he is righteous and just in his judgments. God does not close anyone's eyes, we do and the devil tightens them.

 

[Open Heart]

So you want to believe.

Oh, please, there is a difference between opinion and fact. It is fact that the Ashkenazim have middle eastern DNA.

"Our analysis shows that Ashkenazi Jewish medieval founders were ethnically admixed, with origins in Europe and in the Middle East, roughly in equal parts,” says Dr. Shai Carmi, a post-doctoral scientist who works with Pe’er and who conducted the analysis. “TAGC data are more comprehensive than what was previously available, and we believe the data settle the dispute regarding European and Middle Eastern ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews. " Mapping the DNA sequence of Ashkenazi Jews

 

[Open Heart]

c

How is the White Throne Judgment just if God is the one who closes the eyes?

Paul says that they are the elect (saved) for the love of the Patriarchs. That means their names would be written in the book of Life. So then Yes, God would be just, not punishing them when it is HE who closed their eyes.

 

[Open Heart]

How convenient to blame God. Clearly you are a Calvinist Messianic Catholic Jew.

LOL Calvinism. Hiss!

 

[Open Heart]

I agree that Ruth is a famous example, but to use the term "tribal" as your euphemism for "cultural" is misleading.

Cultural is way too broad a term. A nation can have a culture, such as Americans celebrating the 4th of July. A region can have a culture--I'm from So Cal beach, and just had a Smoothie for breakfast.

Israel is tribal, One PEOPLE. You are usually born into the people, but you can be adopted into the people as Ruth was, and as people are today who go through formal conversion.

I used to talk with a Lakota friend of mine about how modern folks no longer understand how tribal stuff works. The box labeled "tribe" just no longer exists for them. They have "nation" and "culture" and "race" and "ethnicity" but NOT "tribe."

 

[Open Heart]

I agree that Ruth is a famous example, but to use the term "tribal" as your euphemism for "cultural" is misleading. Ruth believed in Yahweh and the promise of the Messiah which is why she is in the messianic line. All Old Testament believers that are saved are saved only because of their faith in the promise of the Savior to come. The promise to Abraham is the only unconditional promise God made to the later descendants of Israel: the Messiah would save them and come through their line. A contract such as the Mosaic contract does not require both parties breaking it to void it. Israel as a "tribal" entity broke it repeatedly as all the world would if it applied to the Gentiles, which it never did.

Chapter and verse where God explains that he will void the covenant if X, Y, or Z.

 

[Open Heart]

Without Messiah they are lost.

Please don't call me a Calvinist. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I reject all five points.

My views are based on the scriptures about unbelieving Jews in Romans 11.

A Messianic Rabbi once taught me that the Messiah, being a Jew himself, is present in every synagogue, but just as Joseph was present among his brothers but not recognized, so Jesus will not be recognized among his brethren the Jews until he chooses to reveal himself.

BTW, that analogy is NOT meant to blame all Jews for the treatment of the Messiah.

 

[Open Heart]

So I am not understanding this whole tribal thing.

So what you are saying is that a believer in Jesus would purposely become and convert to Judaism then to become Messianic?

There is no reason for any Gentile to become a Jew. Gentiles are just fine. I'm not sure how you got the idea that people need to be Jews. Ninevah was Gentile and God cared enough to send them a prophet to save them from judgment. When I say Israel I am pretty much speaking of Jews outside the Church and those who are Jews before they become Christian, although you do have the rare case where a Christian back slides and loses faith, fully converts halachically to Judaism, and then later returns to the Church.

BTW, among the United Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC), which functions under the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council (MJRC), Gentiles who are married to Jews (and that rare Gentile who strongly relates to Israel and Torah) have the option to convert to Judaism through a process identical to conversion to other Judaisms. Here is the MJRC's rationale of such a conversion: On Conversion

 

[Open Heart]

c

Also, I would keep in mind that only a REMNANT of Israel will be saved

That's not what Paul says. Paul says ALL Israel shall be saved. He is also clearly talking about unbelieving Jews when he says they are among the elect (saved): As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. Romans 11:28

 

[Open Heart]

However, it would seem to me that there would be a great issue here in that Yeshua brought Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant, yet you separate yourself out of this covenant?

Scripture states that Jew and Gentile are equal before God, just as men and women are equal before God. Yet all through the NT, the apostles continue to talk about Jews and Greeks, circumcised and not. Obviously the difference still exists, just as the difference between men and women still exists.

 

[Open Heart]

.

 

[Open Heart]

Certainly, the New Covenant replaces the Mosaic Covenant.

Chapter and verse. Hebrews only says that the New Covenant is superior.

 

[ToBeLoved]

A Messianic Rabbi once taught me that the Messiah, being a Jew himself, is present in every synagogue, but just as Joseph was present among his brothers but not recognized, so Jesus will not be recognized among his brethren the Jews until he chooses to reveal himself.

A rabbi teaching about the Messiah and how God thinks, the irony continues.

Good thing you have a Rabbi to TELL you what you know. What I read in the Bible is that where TWO OR MORE are gathered together, Christ is there also.

Your Bible verse supporting your synogauge idea/theory?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Scripture states that Jew and Gentile are equal before God, just as men and women are equal before God. Yet all through the NT, the apostles continue to talk about Jews and Greeks, circumcised and not. Obviously the difference still exists, just as the difference between men and women still exists.

It was obviously to show how the Old Covenant Jewish believers in Christ transitioned to the Messiah and the New Covenant. See the Book of Hebrews. You seem to need an excuse for all your beliefs.

You bash and degrate those under Yeshua's forgiveness and grace just like you. Guess you are one to throw stones and stone the sinners. I think Yeshua spoke about your type.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Chapter and verse. Hebrews only says that the New Covenant is superior.

Google 'obsolete' and 'will soon pass away'.

 

[AlexDTX]

Oh, please, there is a difference between opinion and fact. It is fact that the Ashkenazim have middle eastern DNA.

"Our analysis shows that Ashkenazi Jewish medieval founders were ethnically admixed, with origins in Europe and in the Middle East, roughly in equal parts,” says Dr. Shai Carmi, a post-doctoral scientist who works with Pe’er and who conducted the analysis. “TAGC data are more comprehensive than what was previously available, and we believe the data settle the dispute regarding European and Middle Eastern ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews. " Mapping the DNA sequence of Ashkenazi Jews

It settles it for all who want to believe this.

 

[AlexDTX]

c

Paul says that they are the elect (saved) for the love of the Patriarchs. That means their names would be written in the book of Life. So then Yes, God would be just, not punishing them when it is HE who closed their eyes.

I disagree with that interpretation. As I said, you clearly are a Calvinist. I am convinced that Calvinism is a doctrine created by demons.

 

[AlexDTX]

Cultural is way too broad a term. A nation can have a culture, such as Americans celebrating the 4th of July. A region can have a culture--I'm from So Cal beach, and just had a Smoothie for breakfast.

Israel is tribal, One PEOPLE. You are usually born into the people, but you can be adopted into the people as Ruth was, and as people are today who go through formal conversion.

I used to talk with a Lakota friend of mine about how modern folks no longer understand how tribal stuff works. The box labeled "tribe" just no longer exists for them. They have "nation" and "culture" and "race" and "ethnicity" but NOT "tribe."

I agree that tribe still exists. But it is always by family extension. Calling someone in your family as family is a courtesy and may even give family benefits, but they are not family in truth, nor are they part of the tribe in truth.

Getting back to Ruth, who union was with the promise of Messiah, not the Mosaic law, although she lived under the Mosaic law just as Jesus did. Jesus never regarded the Jews as his family simply because they were related in the flesh, rather he regarded all who trusted in him as the Messiah as his family.