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Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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Major1

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We will soon see the truth of God's plans for His people.
Things will take place as Written, or else our Bibles are of no value.
With the beliefs you have, Major1, you just may feel the cutting edge of the truth and I really feel sad for the millions of Christians who have been deceived by false teaching, as the wrath of God strikes the earth.

Well I appreciate your concern brother. But in all honesty, is that really what you feel???

It seems that your comment may have some what of a little bit of sarcasm dripping from it.
If I am misreading your intent please forgive me. It is just that this constant debating over the same old ground gets very tedious after about the 10th or 12th time.

But think of it this way.....God is in total control. If you and your friends are right and He has chosen to allow the born again believers to go through the Tribulation, then that is what we will do. Nothing changes as we can not change what God has already planned!!!!
We will still be born again and we will love the Lord. We will do just as you suggest. We will suffer, be persecuted and die for Christ.

However, If He has decided that His Church is going to be removed and taken to heaven so as to escape the Tribulation then that is what will happen. We will be caught to be with Him and if that happens.....glory to God because nothing changes. We will still be born again and love the Lord.

Now if we choose to believe in the Rapture and that is our hope what does it matter to you?
If this belief gives us encouragement why is that such a concern for you?
If we have heard all the sides of this situation and then being educated in our choices, we decide to accept the Rapture theory instead of YOUR theory, why is that such a concern for you?????

Since you have rejected the Rapture and believe you will go through the horrors of the Tribulation, I respect your decision and say......."WONDERFUL"! May the Lord bless you and keep you safe and remember......do not take the Mark!

Why in the world do you guys then not have the ability to do the same thing towards those who do not accept what YOU think! Why can you not just bless us and move on in life?
 
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Major1

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If they are preaching that being saved means being raptured to Heaven -while alive- before the tribulation, then they are preaching another gospel.Jesus have come to the Earth to Save our SOUL from eternal damnation into the lake of fire[if we believe Him and remain faitful until our death]

Luke 21:16-19
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

You did not answer the question. Again.......What are your educational credentials that allows your opinions to be more Biblical and acceptable that those men listed.???????????

Again, why are YOU right and all of them wrong?
 
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Riberra

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Now if we choose to believe in the Rapture and that is our hope what does it matter to you?
If this belief gives us encouragement why is that such a concern for you?
If we have heard all the sides of this situation and then being educated in our choices, we decide to accept the Rapture theory instead of YOUR theory, why is that such a concern for you?????

Since you have rejected the Rapture and believe you will go through the horrors of the Tribulation, I respect your decision and say......."WONDERFUL"! May the Lord bless you and keep you safe and remember......do not take the Mark!

Why in the world do you guys then not have the ability to do the same thing towards those who do not accept what YOU think! Why can you not just bless us and move on in life?
Personally I am not concerned at all by your belief in a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation no more than i am concerned by those who believe that the extra terrestrials will come to remove them before Planet X cause havoc on the Earth.
 
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Riberra

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You did not answer the question. Again.......What are your educational credentials
I have the same educational credentials that Jesus have determined was required when He have selected the 12 apostles to preach the Gospel to the World.
 
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Major1

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At one time I was a deacon at a conservative Bible Church.

Some time later we had a retired pastor and his wife join the church.

He was a graduate of DTS and talked the pastors into teaching Dispensational Theology in Sunday School.

One of the classes he taught was titled "Things to Come" by Dr. Dwight Pentecost. I bought the book and read it. Therefore, I do understand the doctrine promoted by the seminary. However, I would say that very few of those sitting in the pews have an understanding of the doctrine.


I presented the results of the following research to the deacon board of my Church. After the presentation, I produced the following YouTube video to document what I had found.


Some of those in the church did not want those sitting in the pews to know the results of my research. Soon after, they started finding something wrong with me.


The man who was the chief promoter of the doctrine talked to me like a dog who had wet the carpet and knew better, the next Sunday in the sanctuary of the Church.

It was a replay of an earlier event.

At one time Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together in the early Plymouth Brethren movement. Sometime later Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" doctrine of the Irvingites and then divided scripture into that for the Church and that for Israel. When Newton would not accept Darby's new doctrine, Darby launched a personal attack on Newton that split the group. The same spirit is alive and well today. Anyone who dares to speak against Darby's doctrine will likely experience the same thing. It has become one of the primary ways the doctrine defends itself.

You do not need to list any more names. Adrian Rogers was always one of my favorite preachers. He may not have attended the seminary, but he did teach much of the doctrine. However, I do not have to agree with everything he taught. Everything he said must be examined based on God's Word. If he were still with us, I am sure he would agree.

You have turned my disagreement with the doctrine into a personal attack upon the men you listed. In doing this, you are doing the exact same thing that Darby did to Newton.

If this is what is required to defend your doctrine, it should be exposed for what it really is...

.

There is no way for anyone to know what is the bottom line concerning your story.

Maybe you are telling the exact, whole truth and maybe you are embellishing it just a little, only you know that. Please do not get defensive, I am just stating the obvious and if it were me you would say the same thing and you would be correct in doing so. That is always the problem with "stories". There is always THREE sides to every story.

There is YOUR side, then there is THEIR side and then there is the truth which is upsell a little of both.

You posted it so I assume you wanted a comment. My comment is that being in church for over 50 years I have never heard of or experienced such a confrontation and neither would I allow it to take place......But that is just me.

Now....Dispensational Theology IS NOT A Dallas Theological Seminary exclusive doctrinal teaching.
I am sure you know what it means but I can also assure you that most Christians do not know.
IMO the great majority has had the process take place in their lives and simply just did not know the name of it.

Some such as yourself see it as some kind of mystery or Occult teaching made up of lies and distortions. Nothing could further from the truth.

"Dispensation" simply means ...."TIME".

The truth is that is a method of Bible study that keeps the order of things—an administration, a system, or a management. In theology, a dispensation is the divine administration of a period of time; each dispensation is a divinely appointed age. Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives:.......
1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy, and
2) a view of the uniqueness of Israel as separate from the church in God’s program.

Dispensationalists hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible as the best hermeneutic. The literal interpretation gives each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. It is understood that even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them. So, for example, when the Bible speaks of “a thousand years” in Revelation 20, dispensationalists interpret it as a literal period of 1,000 years (the dispensation of the Kingdom), since there is no compelling reason to interpret it otherwise.

Now from what you have just posted, I can understand your reason for rejecting this method. Since you have already rejected the "Pretribulation Rapture" YOU must then reject Dispensationalism.

You see, for all of you who do not know this, allow me to say to you that Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a distinction between Israel and the church, and organizes the Bible into different dispensations or administrations.

Now as for Dwight Pentecost and his book....."Things to Come". IMO, and some do not think much of it, Dr. Pentecost's production is one of if not the best book on this subject to be found.
It is concise, authoritive and most of all, completely Biblical.

And by the way......he attended DTS.

You know.......I think I may have relied to someone else who you posted to. O.........well.
If I did I am sure you will yell at me but maybe you needed to hear my thinking.
 
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Major1

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Personally I am not concerned at all by your belief in a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation no more than i am concerned by those who believe that the extra terrestrials will come to remove them before Planet X cause havoc on the Earth.

WOW!..........And I was concerned about saying something harmful about your theology.

Now you know my feelings about your theology.

So maybe we can move on to something else.
 
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Major1

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I have the same educational credentials that Jesus have determined was required when He have selected the 12 apostles to preach the Gospel to the World.

ROFL...............Do you realize how much you are embarrassing yourself?????

Jesus was GOD my dear friend and He was the Creator and had no need for educational credentials.

Do you realize what you are saying??/ Do you read what you say before posting it?????
 
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Major1

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Can you explain why the KJV does not have written"THE great tribulation ....
I have given the text as written in the KJV which is These are they which came out of great tribulation

Why your 5 versions deliberately add a vord ?



those who will be killed during the 3 and 1/2 years of the reign of the Beast because they refuse to worship the beast and take the mark arrive in Heaven only in Revelation 15:2.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Sure I can. Anyone who has been to DTS can do that for you. But what is the point.

Anyway.....just for those who might want to know, when we get to what is referred to in Revelation 7:14 as either "great tribulation" or "the great tribulation" we see that the context is of the 144,000 of 12 tribes of Israel and "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that "stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
These are those who came out of great tribulation according to the KJV.

Now the phrase "great tribulation" or even "THE great tribulation" could refer to either the entire course of all God's people in history who have suffered tribulation, or possibly to a specific period of time referred to by some as the last 7 years of tribulation on this earth. The text just doesn't say one way or the other, and you can read into EITHER reading the particular theological view you may have.
 
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Riberra

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ROFL...............Do you realize how much you are embarrassing yourself?????

Jesus was GOD my dear friend and He was the Creator and had no need for educational credentials.

Do you realize what you are saying??/ Do you read what you say before posting it?????
Jesus have not chosed the scribes and high priests pharisee who were more educated that the 12 apostles.Your preachers formed at DTS are the modern version of the scribes and high priests pharisee .
 
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Riberra

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Riberra said:
Can you explain why the KJV does not have written"THE great tribulation ....
I have given the text as written in the KJV which is These are they which came out of great tribulation

Why your 5 versions deliberately add a vord ?
Sure I can. Anyone who has been to DTS can do that for you. But what is the point. You will not accept anything told to you.
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
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Major1

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Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Allow me to help you on this one also. Rev. 22:18 is Jesus speaking to the BOOK of the REVELATION. Note.........."Written in THIS book".

What you are looking for I think is in Deuteronomy 4:2King James Version (KJV)........
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
 
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Major1

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Jesus have not chosed the scribes and high priests pharisee who were more educated that the 12 apostles.Your preachers formed at DTS are the modern version of the scribes and high priests pharisee .

You keep forgetting Liberty and Eckerd colleges. Actually Eckerd now used to be Presbyterian University in St. Pete Fl. in case you wanted to check it out.

If you are going to brag on DTS I wish you would give the others the same kind of advertisement.

And again, I remind you that all 3 have excellent online courses available and I recommend them to you.
 
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Riberra

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Anyway.....just for those who might want to know, when we get to what is referred to in Revelation 7:14 as either "great tribulation" or "the great tribulation" we see that the context is of the 144,000 of 12 tribes of Israel and "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that "stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
These are those who came out of great tribulation according to the KJV.

Now the phrase "great tribulation" or even "THE great tribulation" could refer to either the entire course of all God's people in history who have suffered tribulation, or possibly to a specific period of time referred to by some as the last 7 years of tribulation on this earth. The text just doesn't say one way or the other, and you can read into EITHER reading the particular theological view you may have.
Revelation 15:2 refers specifically to those who will be killed during the 3 1/2 reign of the Beast.

While those mentioned in Revelation 7:9 refer to God's people in history who have suffered tribulation [slain]since Jesus have ascended to Heaven
 
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Major1

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Jesus have not chosed the scribes and high priests pharisee who were more educated that the 12 apostles.Your preachers formed at DTS are the modern version of the scribes and high priests pharisee .

This is not about THEM. It is about YOU. Do not try to slide your comments of onto something else.

YOU said you and I quote your exact words...............
" I have the same educational credentials that Jesus have determined was required when He have selected the 12 apostles to preach the Gospel to the World."


Now Jesus was God and YOU my friend are a SINNER. Now are you going to answer the question or keep playing word games?

What are your educational credentials which allow you to disparage Christian seminaries????
 
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Riberra

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This is not about THEM. It is about YOU. Do not try to slide your comments of onto something else.

YOU said you and I quote your exact words...............
" I have the same educational credentials that Jesus have determined was required when He have selected the 12 apostles to preach the Gospel to the World."


Now Jesus was God and YOU my friend are a SINNER. Now are you going to answer the question or keep playing word games?

What are your educational credentials which allow you to disparage Christian seminaries????
What allow Christian seminaries like DTS the right to add , change words or even in some cases remove entire verses in their new Bible ?
 
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Major1

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Revelation 15:2 refers specifically to those who will be killed during the 3 1/2 reign of the Beast.

While those mentioned in Revelation 7:9 refer to God's people in history who have suffered tribulation [slain]since Jesus have ascended to Heaven

ROFL!

Rev. 7:14...........
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Rev. 15:2.......
" And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Both references refer to those who were saved during the Tribulation Period.
 
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Major1

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What allow Christian seminaries like DTS the right to add , change words or even in some cases remove entire verses in their new Bible ?

You have not answered the question!!!

What are YOUR credentials so as to allow you to make such comments?

3rd time.
 
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Riberra

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ROFL!

Rev. 7:14...........
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Rev. 15:2.......
" And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Both references refer to those who were saved during the Tribulation Period.
Nah,both do not refers to those who will be slain by the BEAST only Revelation 15:2 refers to those that will be killed because they refuse the mark, thus during the specific 3 1/2 reign of the BEAST.
 
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BABerean2

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There is no way for anyone to know what is the bottom line concerning your story.

Maybe you are telling the exact, whole truth and maybe you are embellishing it just a little, only you know that. Please do not get defensive, I am just stating the obvious and if it were me you would say the same thing and you would be correct in doing so. That is always the problem with "stories". There is always THREE sides to every story.

There is YOUR side, then there is THEIR side and then there is the truth which is upsell a little of both.

It is how your doctrine started.
Do not believe me.
Here it is from a Brethren historian.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.
 
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