Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Postvieww]

Again we have the problem of posting several things all at one time expecting a response on each one of them. Since you have posted Scriptures I will give you my understanding o

Rev. 6:9 is NOT the Church!
The souls there are the Old Test. saints and those who will be killed in the Great Trib.

Luke 11:50-51.....
"that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation".

Rev. 7:14 is not the Church.
IF the ones in view here was the church, John would have known. According to verse 13....John does not know this group. When reading verse 14 IMO the ELDER from verse 13 who IMO is the representative of the Raptured church tells John that this group of people came out of the Tribulation. That tells ME that the church is not going through the Tribulation.

Rev. 19:1 is the host of heaven including the Raptured church.
If you go back and study chapters 5-7 you will see the ELDERS, the Church and angels all worshipping God. Now in 19:1 we see that a large number of Tribulation saints have been added.
At this point in future time the Great Tribulation is over and the HOST, all those in heaven are united with Christ in marriage and the preparations have all been made and Jesus is about to come again in power and great glory!!!

Rev. 20:4 is not the church.
This is self explanatory as the verse itself tells us......"And which had not worshipped the beast neither his image or received his mark...."!

That can only be the Tribulation saints. The Church will have already been in heaven and was not subjected to that challenge to their faith.

I am sorry that you do not accept that the 24 Elders represent the Raptured. I do and that is as they say.....that.

Again, you do not accept that the church disappears after Rev. 3 and is not seen again until 19:11 and I do. So once again........that is that!

And finally......we both post Scriptures and we both believe that they say two different things.

Repeating them over and over is not going to advance the position of either one of us but you seem to enjoy this.

Again......if you care to continue, PLEASE post ONE response and not many.

Major1 said:

Again, you do not accept that the church disappears after Rev. 3 and is not seen again until 19:11 and I do. So once again........that is that!

Since I specifically showed the church is here after Rev 3 called saints and the Rev 19:11 text does not say or imply "church" explain how “that is that”?

 

[Major1]

Major1 said:

Again, you do not accept that the church disappears after Rev. 3 and is not seen again until 19:11 and I do. So once again........that is that!

Since I specifically showed the church is here after Rev 3 called saints and the Rev 19:11 text does not say or imply "church" explain how “that is that”?

That is not the case at all brother. You showed me what YOU think the word "Saints" mean.

I can either accept your thinking or I can go with the Bible.

I actually find this a rather hilariuouse attempt to prove an opinion. The posttribbers...YOU----reject the Rapture because the actual word Rapture is not found in the Scripture.

NOW however you want to use the exact opposite thinking to say that even thought the word CHURCH is not in the Scriptures AFTER chapter 3, it is none the less represented by the word "Saint".

I have done this already but I feel as if it is needed yet once again for your understanding of where I am coming from. I will not change your mind on this and visa-versa but it is what I believe.

The content of the book of Revelation can be divided into three sections, based upon Christ's command in Rev. 1:19.....
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this".

These three sections reveal a time sequence:
1). Past,
2). Present,
3). and Future.

What had John just seen? He had just seen a symbolic vision of Jesus Christ standing in the midst of seven lampstands that represented the seven local churches.

This content forms the past section of the book which is "the things which you have seen".

The present section which is "the things which are", can be seen in the seven individual letters to the churches.

The future section thus forms the major part of the book from Rev. 4-22. The prepositional phrase "after this" (meta tauta) literally means "after these things." It is found three times (1:19; 4:1 [twice]). The third section begins with these words: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this".

That tells me that the Church is not in view and God in Chapter 4 begins to deal with Israel.

 

[Riberra]

That is not the case at all brother. You showed me what YOU think the word "Saints" mean.

I can either accept your thinking or I can go with the Bible.

I actually find this a rather hilariuouse attempt to prove an opinion. The posttribbers...YOU----reject the Rapture because the actual word Rapture is not found in the Scripture.

NOW however you want to use the exact opposite thinking to say that even thought the word CHURCH is not in the Scriptures AFTER chapter 3, it is none the less represented by the word "Saint".

I have done this already but I feel as if it is needed yet once again for your understanding of where I am coming from. I will not change your mind on this and visa-versa but it is what I believe.

The content of the book of Revelation can be divided into three sections, based upon Christ's command in Rev. 1:19.....
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this".

These three sections reveal a time sequence:
1). Past,
2). Present,
3). and Future.

What had John just seen? He had just seen a symbolic vision of Jesus Christ standing in the midst of seven lampstands that represented the seven local churches.

This content forms the past section of the book which is "the things which you have seen".

The present section which is "the things which are", can be seen in the seven individual letters to the churches.

The thing that must be considered about the address to the 7 Churches who were in existence in the time that John wrote the Book of revelation ,is that a judgment was about to happen upon them SOON .
Only those in the hide [Catacombs]have survived the terrible Roman persecution.

The future section thus forms the major part of the book from Rev. 4-22. The prepositional phrase "after this" (meta tauta) literally means "after these things." It is found three times (1:19; 4:1 [twice]). The third section begins with these words: "After these things

That tells me that the Church is not in view and God in Chapter 4 begins to deal with Israel.

-after this- means simply after that John have finished to write Chater 1 through Chapter 3 the address to the 7 Churches who were in existence in the time that John wrote the Book of Revelation.

Chapter 4 and Chapter 5 is a scene about Jesus arrival to Heaven...a flashback ....remember all of that was only a VISION while John was IN THE SPIRIT,John have never quit physically the Patmos Isle..The same way that Daniel saw only a Vision.
Revelation 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 4:
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


The things which must be hereafter ...means the things who will happen on the Earth until His Return.

Revelation 6

Seal 1 is about Jesus on a white horse conquering ie the Gospel preached upon the whole world.Jesus return on a white horse Revelation 19:11-15.

Seal 2 is about the wars who have plagued humanity since Jesus have ascended to Heaven,still in action as we speak.

Seal 3 is about the famines who have plagued the world since Jesus have ascended to Heaven,still in action as we speak.

Seal 4 is about WW1 and WW2 who have affected 1/4 of the Earth ie the European continent.

Seal 5 is about the EARLY Christians Martyrs and all those who will join them until that God decide that the time is come to avenge their blood.Still in action as we speak.

Seal 6 have obviously not been opened yet...

 

[Major1]

The thing that must be considered about the address to the 7 Churches is that a judgment was about to happen to them SOON .
Only those in the hide have survived the terrible Roman persecution.


-after this- means simply after that John have finished to write Chater 1 through Chapter 3 the address to the 7 Churches who were in existence in the time that John wrote the Book of Revelation.

Chapter 4 and Chapter 5 is a scene about Jesus arrival to Heaven...a flashback ....remember all of that was only a VISION while John was IN THE SPIRIT,John have never quit physically the Patmos Isle..The same way that Daniel saw only a Vision.
Revelation 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 4:
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Again......you are completely in error.

4:1......"Come up heither" is said to John NOT Jesus my friend.

JOHN is commanded to come to heaven so that he can see and understand "The things to come" will be. Since he is IN THE SPIRIT it does not matter if what he received was a vision or an actual transporting to the future. He is 100% correct in all that he writes as the Spirit of God can

When John looks, he sees the church in heaven and the throne in heaven occupied by Jesus.

The church is represented by the 24 elders. If you read carefully you see that the ones in heaven all have crowns of Gold. Stay with me now.........that can only mean that they have received their crowns of gold and that can ONLY mean THAT THE Judgment Seat of Christ has taken place.

The only way that could have happened is that the church was Raptured already!!!

So then, chapter 4:1 is when heaven is opened to let John in as a representative of the church. That is when he sees the elders which is to say the church itself already there. Then in 19: heaven opens again to let Jesus exit with the host of heaven.


Now in 19:12, what is it that we see on his head???????
"His eyes were a flame of fire, and on his head were many CROWNS.........".

Where did those crowns come from?

From the Raptured church which gave their crowns back to the one who made them possible in the 1st place.

The Rapture is NOT a reward but instead it is an act of God's grace.

 

[Riberra]

Again......you are completely in error.

4:1......"Come up heither" is said to John NOT Jesus my friend.

Where did i said that command was not made to John ?

JOHN is commanded to come to heaven so that he can see and understand "The things to come" will be. Since he is IN THE SPIRIT it does not matter if what he received was a vision or an actual transporting to the future. He is 100% correct in all that he writes as the Spirit of God can

Agreed

When John looks, he sees the church in heaven and the throne in heaven occupied by Jesus.

The church is represented by the 24 elders. If you read carefully you see that the ones in heaven all have crowns of Gold. Stay with me now.........

What John saw are Heavenly beings in the Throne room not the church.
Theses beings were created by God eons of time before the first humans.

that can only mean that they have received their crowns of gold and that can ONLY mean THAT THE Judgment Seat of Christ has taken place.

No Judgment have happened at that moment,that is only the description of Jesus being the only ONE worthy to open the SEALS...

The only way that could have happened is that the church was Raptured already!!!

No, the 7 Churches in existence in the time of John were still on the Earth when John wrote Revelation 4 and Revelation 5....and the rest of the Book of Revelation.
To resume
The only thing that John describe in Revelation 4 and Revelation 5 is a scene where John saw heavenly beings, God and Jesus in the Throne Room in Heaven,and Jesus being found WORTHY to OPEN the SEALS.

 

[BABerean2]

That is not the case at all brother. You showed me what YOU think the word "Saints" mean.

I can either accept your thinking or I can go with the Bible.

I actually find this a rather hilariuouse attempt to prove an opinion. The posttribbers...YOU----reject the Rapture because the actual word Rapture is not found in the Scripture.

NOW however you want to use the exact opposite thinking to say that even thought the word CHURCH is not in the Scriptures AFTER chapter 3, it is none the less represented by the word "Saint".

I have done this already but I feel as if it is needed yet once again for your understanding of where I am coming from. I will not change your mind on this and visa-versa but it is what I believe.

The content of the book of Revelation can be divided into three sections, based upon Christ's command in Rev. 1:19.....
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this".

These three sections reveal a time sequence:
1). Past,
2). Present,
3). and Future.

What had John just seen? He had just seen a symbolic vision of Jesus Christ standing in the midst of seven lampstands that represented the seven local churches.

This content forms the past section of the book which is "the things which you have seen".

The present section which is "the things which are", can be seen in the seven individual letters to the churches.

The future section thus forms the major part of the book from Rev. 4-22. The prepositional phrase "after this" (meta tauta) literally means "after these things." It is found three times (1:19; 4:1 [twice]). The third section begins with these words: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this".

That tells me that the Church is not in view and God in Chapter 4 begins to deal with Israel.

The Capitol "C" Church as we use the term today and as you used it above, is not found at all in the entire Book of Revelation.

Individual church bodies of ancient Asia Minor are found in the Book of Revelation.

We find those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

The 144,000 in the Book of Revelation are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb. Paul uses the same language to describe Christians in Romans 16:5. Paul also compares Christians to a virgin.

Therefore, the argument that the "Church" is not found after Revelation chapter 4 is intended to make the pretrib doctrine work. It is not based on the text.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.　

Rev 14:4　 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.　

Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.　

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

.

 

[Postvieww]

That is not the case at all brother. You showed me what YOU think the word "Saints" mean.

I can either accept your thinking or I can go with the Bible.

I actually find this a rather hilariuouse attempt to prove an opinion. The posttribbers...YOU----reject the Rapture because the actual word Rapture is not found in the Scripture.

NOW however you want to use the exact opposite thinking to say that even thought the word CHURCH is not in the Scriptures AFTER chapter 3, it is none the less represented by the word "Saint".

I have done this already but I feel as if it is needed yet once again for your understanding of where I am coming from. I will not change your mind on this and visa-versa but it is what I believe.

The content of the book of Revelation can be divided into three sections, based upon Christ's command in Rev. 1:19.....
"Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this".

These three sections reveal a time sequence:
1). Past,
2). Present,
3). and Future.

What had John just seen? He had just seen a symbolic vision of Jesus Christ standing in the midst of seven lampstands that represented the seven local churches.

This content forms the past section of the book which is "the things which you have seen".

The present section which is "the things which are", can be seen in the seven individual letters to the churches.

The future section thus forms the major part of the book from Rev. 4-22. The prepositional phrase "after this" (meta tauta) literally means "after these things." It is found three times (1:19; 4:1 [twice]). The third section begins with these words: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this".

That tells me that the Church is not in view and God in Chapter 4 begins to deal with Israel.

Major1 said:

That is not the case at all brother. You showed me what YOU think the word "Saints" mean.

I can either accept your thinking or I can go with the Bible.

I think we should go with the Bible. Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, Philemon, Hebrews, and Jude use the word saints in reference to believers in Christ. That is not my opinion that is a fact you seem to want to ignore.


You have to assume you are right on a lot of other things to make saint fit your narrative in Revelation. All I see as evidence saints in Revelation are not believers in Christ (the church) is the opinion you are right about these other things.

Major1 said:

I actually find this a rather hilariuouse attempt to prove an opinion. The posttribbers...YOU----reject the Rapture because the actual word Rapture is not found in the Scripture.

I do not reject the resurrection (rapture) because the word rapture is not in the bible. I believe in the resurrection (rapture). I reject the pre-trib resurrection (rapture) because in is not in the bible.


What I find hilarious is that I back my opinion with scripture and you provide your opinion backed with your opinion on this point.

Major1 said:

NOW however you want to use the exact opposite thinking to say that even thought the word CHURCH is not in the Scriptures AFTER chapter 3, it is none the less represented by the word "Saint".

It is pre-tribbers that try to make their case based on the fact the word church is not used but once after chapter 3.


13 other books of the New Testament seem to think it is acceptable to use the word saint, and 12 of the 13 books use both the word church and saints. They are synonymous terms. It is pre-tribbers that try to make “saint” in Revelation mean something other than what is means elsewhere in the New Testament, with only opinion as the basis.

Major1 said:

I have done this already but I feel as if it is needed yet once again for your understanding of where I am coming from. I will not change your mind on this and visa-versa but it is what I believe.

I really do know where you are coming from I’ve already come from there and left. Thanks for explaining it anyway, other readers can make the contrast in the points of view. It appears there is a lot we disagree on in the order of events in the book of Revelation.


I think we have just about covered this “saint” issue.

 

[Major1]

Major1 said:

That is not the case at all brother. You showed me what YOU think the word "Saints" mean.

I can either accept your thinking or I can go with the Bible.

I think we should go with the Bible. Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, Philemon, Hebrews, and Jude use the word saints in reference to believers in Christ. That is not my opinion that is a fact you seem to want to ignore.


You have to assume you are right on a lot of other things to make saint fit your narrative in Revelation. All I see as evidence saints in Revelation are not believers in Christ (the church) is the opinion you are right about these other things.

Major1 said:

I actually find this a rather hilariuouse attempt to prove an opinion. The posttribbers...YOU----reject the Rapture because the actual word Rapture is not found in the Scripture.

I do not reject the resurrection (rapture) because the word rapture is not in the bible. I believe in the resurrection (rapture). I reject the pre-trib resurrection (rapture) because in is not in the bible.


What I find hilarious is that I back my opinion with scripture and you provide your opinion backed with your opinion on this point.

Major1 said:

NOW however you want to use the exact opposite thinking to say that even thought the word CHURCH is not in the Scriptures AFTER chapter 3, it is none the less represented by the word "Saint".

It is pre-tribbers that try to make their case based on the fact the word church is not used but once after chapter 3.


13 other books of the New Testament seem to think it is acceptable to use the word saint, and 12 of the 13 books use both the word church and saints. They are synonymous terms. It is pre-tribbers that try to make “saint” in Revelation mean something other than what is means elsewhere in the New Testament, with only opinion as the basis.

Major1 said:

I have done this already but I feel as if it is needed yet once again for your understanding of where I am coming from. I will not change your mind on this and visa-versa but it is what I believe.

I really do know where you are coming from I’ve already come from there and left. Thanks for explaining it anyway, other readers can make the contrast in the points of view. It appears there is a lot we disagree on in the order of events in the book of Revelation.


I think we have just about covered this “saint” issue.

Ya think????

The word "Saint" does not always mean Christi does it mean the Church.

That is what YOU want it to mean because it fits your agenda. Personally I think anyone in doubt at you are trying to do with the word "Saint".

When we read Daniel, the people there are referred to as "Saints" They are also called Daniel's people.

Since the Tribulation is all about God dealing with Israel, why are you so committed to that one word.....Saint.

It could not be any clearer than that Tribulation saints are the people who will come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation period. They can be and will be called saints but there is NO evidence at all that they make up or are any part of the church.

 

[Riberra]

It could not be any clearer than that Tribulation saints are the people who will come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation period. They can be and will be called saints but there is NO evidence at all that they make up or are any part of the church.

Revelation 9 and Revelation 16 show us that no sinners will turn to God during the Tribulation.

Revelation 9:20
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:21
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



The only exception will be those in Jerusalem who will turn to God after they will see the resurrection and ascension to Heaven of the 2 witnessses
Revelation 11:12-13
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

.....these freshly new JEWS believers along with the few Christians in Jerusalem at the time will be the group called the WOMAN in Revelation 12:14 that will flee in the wilderness.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

So apart from the 144,000 and the Woman who will be under direct God's protection ....all the other Christians will have to face the Beast and his minions...don't expect a rapture or any kind of other surnatural protection to avoid that.

The wrath of Satan and the Beast is NOT the wrath of God.

The wrath of God to AVENGE THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS will be poured out in the 7 Vials [Revelation 16] will happen after that the Beast will have slain nearly all the Christians who will refuse to take the Mark and worship his image.

 

[BABerean2]

Since the Tribulation is all about God dealing with Israel, why are you so committed to that one word.....Saint.

Rev 19:7　 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."　
Rev 19:8　 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.　

Because words have meaning.

The term you are using "tribulation saints", in an invention produced by men to make the pretrib doctrine work.

.

 

[keras]

It could not be any clearer than that Tribulation saints are the people who will come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation period. They can be and will be called saints but there is NO evidence at all that they make up or are any part of the church.

Conversely, there is no evidence that the present church is anywhere else than on earth. All of God's holy people are in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ comes. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7
Anyway, Christians are the church and we see them in Revelation 12:17 and Daniel 11:32.
As Riberra correctly says: very few, if any will become Christian during the GT. Even the two Witnesses don't seem to be able to change anyone.

Since the Tribulation is all about God dealing with Israel, why are you so committed to that one word.....Saint.

This is quite incorrect. Ethnic Israel no longer has any part to play, other than being judged and punished along with the rest of the world. Ezekiel 21:1-7

 

[Psalm3704]

Let me say it one more time.
The text you quoted above from Hebrews chapter 8 is a direct quote from the Old Testament Book of Jeremiah. In the NKJV it is written in Upper-case letters.
This time I will Bold, and Underline the text from the Old Testament, so you can see it this time.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—


Below we find the verse from the Book of Jeremiah.　

Jer 31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—　

Therefore, your attempt to deny that the New Covenant is not in effect now is revealed for what it really is.
The context of any passage is essential to finding the truth.

You have attempted to ignore Hebrews 8:6, which is written in the present tense during the first century and then you are pretending that the text from verse 8 was written by Paul, instead of Jeremiah.

And I'll tell you again. It's impossible this was fulfilled in the first century. Impossible Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31 are the same covenant as you mentioned in Matthew 26:28.

In order to fulfill Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8, God will have to return the kingdom of Israel back to the holy land together with the kingdom of Judah.

Hebrews 8:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Jeremiah 31:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
A New Covenant
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—​

Plus the covenant Jesus made on the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28, He said it was shed for many.

He did not say it was shed for many Jews.

Matthew 26:28 New King James Version (NKJV)
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

Do you actually think Jesus died on the cross only for the Jews?

He said go and make disciple of all nations. He did not say go make disciples of all Israelites.

One other thing BAB2.

The book of Jeremiah is a book of end time prophecy, not a historic book of the first century. Read the last verse of Jeremiah 31. This is what was written.

Jeremiah 31:40 New King James Version (NKJV)
And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”


Jeremiah 31:40 New Living Translation (NLT)
And the entire area—including the graveyard and ash dump in the valley, and all the fields out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the Horse Gate—will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be captured or destroyed.”​

What happened in 70 AD BAB2?

Bottom line is it's impossible Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8 was fulfilled at the Last Supper.

How did Peter address the crowd on the day of Pentecost?

Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Acts 2:14 Good News Translation (GNT)
Then Peter stood up with the other eleven apostles and in a loud voice began to speak to the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, listen to me and let me tell you what this means.

Acts 2:14 New Living Translation (NLT)
Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this.​

I already know the silly little game you're playing using Acts 2:14 and Acts 2:22 to misinform others that God had already gathered the kingdom of Israel back into the holy land.

Judea is not the same as Judah. You ever heard of Judea and Samaria or read Matthew 24:16?

Judea is a location in Israel while Judah represent the descendants from the sons of Jacob: Judah, Benjamin and Levi.

God has only gathered the tribe of Judah back to the holy land around 450 BC but has yet to return the kingdom of Israel. This event is still future and won't happen till the first year of the tribulation when He will inspire them to return and help finish rebuilding the 3rd temple.

You have referred to some on this forum as "Padawan".
Are you attempting to puff yourself up by using this term?

"A Padawan, also known as a Padawan learner or Apprentice, referred to a Force-sensitive adolescent who trained in the Jedi Order to one day become a full-fledged Jedi."

Grats, I'm impress. You got something right. Or did you just copied and pasted this?

Have you thought about dropping prophecy and focus on Star Wars? You seem to do better with fiction.







.

 

[Psalm3704]

I wouldn’t rule out calling on the Lord at a time like that, if God has a purpose for your life, that sword just might turn to rubber in the executioners hand. Then again you might lose your head and go to be with Christ.

Hebrews 11:35

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

My use of Hebrew 11:35 was not directed at your use of Acts 2:21 it was used in reference to your comment which I specifically quoted in post #1138 copied above. It was in a later post, #1158 I questioned your tying them together. You are addressing points not made and creating issues I never raised.

Trust me my friend I feel no humiliation from anything you have written.

Your brother in Christ, BUD

You just don't get it. It doesn't matter if your use of Hebrews 11:35 was directed at Acts 2:21 or not, you were using Hebrews 11:35 to argue that by calling upon the name of the Lord, the sword will change to rubber and you'll be saved.

This is not what Hebrews 11:35 is telling us. It's not telling us we'll be saved from beheading by calling upon the name of the Lord.

It's telling you the opposite which supports my argument. People will die by for their faith during the tribulation. Revelation 13:10.

Hebrews 11:35 Good News Translation (GNT)
Through faith women received their dead relatives raised back to life. Others, refusing to accept freedom, died under torture in order to be raised to a better life.

Revelation 13:10 Good News Translation (GNT)
Whoever is meant to be captured will surely be captured; whoever is meant to be killed by the sword will surely be killed by the sword. This calls for endurance and faith on the part of God's people.”











.

 

[Postvieww]

You just don't get it. It doesn't matter if your use of Hebrews 11:35 was directed at Acts 2:21 or not, you were using Hebrews 11:35 to argue that by calling upon the name of the Lord, the sword will change to rubber and you'll be saved.

This is not what Hebrews 11:35 is telling us. It's not telling us we'll be saved from beheading by calling upon the name of the Lord.

It's telling you the opposite which supports my argument. People will die by for their faith during the tribulation. Revelation 13:10.

Hebrews 11:35 Good News Translation (GNT)
Through faith women received their dead relatives raised back to life. Others, refusing to accept freedom, died under torture in order to be raised to a better life.

Revelation 13:10 Good News Translation (GNT)
Whoever is meant to be captured will surely be captured; whoever is meant to be killed by the sword will surely be killed by the sword. This calls for endurance and faith on the part of God's people.”











.

Psalm3704 said:

you were using Hebrews 11:35 to argue that by calling upon the name of the Lord, the sword will change to rubber and you'll be saved.

FALSE!


I said in post #1138

“I wouldn’t rule out calling on the Lord at a time like that, if God has a purpose for your life, that sword just MIGHT turn to rubber in the executioners hand. Then again you might lose your head and go to be with Christ.”

Psalm3704 said:

You just don't get it.

I believe the above statement applies to you my friend.

 

[Postvieww]

Saints in Revelation.



Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



Not one of the verses can be shown from the text to apply exclusively to the Jews! It is a myth and fantasy of pre-tribbers to try and force the word “saints” in Revelation to mean believing Jews only.

 

[Major1]

Conversely, there is no evidence that the present church is anywhere else than on earth. All of God's holy people are in the holy Land when the Anti-Christ comes. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7
Anyway, Christians are the church and we see them in Revelation 12:17 and Daniel 11:32.
As Riberra correctly says: very few, if any will become Christian during the GT. Even the two Witnesses don't seem to be able to change anyone.

This is quite incorrect. Ethnic Israel no longer has any part to play, other than being judged and punished along with the rest of the world. Ezekiel 21:1-7

Once again I must correct your understanding.

Daniel 7:25....IS NOT THE CHURCH which is in view.
You are basing your agenda on one word, "SAINTS" and trying to make that out to be the church. You are WRONG!
Where does it say....."CHURCH?"
It says...."SAINTS".
YOU want it to say CHURCH because YOU have rejected the Rapture. However SAINTS can mean the Jews and it can also mean the ones who came to be saved AFTER the Rapture who are the Tribulation saints of Rev. 7:9.

Rev. 12:17 is NOT THE CHURCH. The woman was present at the birth of Christ in 12:5 and will also be present on earth during the 1260 days prior to Christ's return to the earth in 12:6,13-17. In using the "law of previous reference" as a principle of interpretation, only the nation of Israel would qualify as the meaning of the woman. This position finds support in the Old Testament passage of Gen. 37:9-10, in the actual historical situation at the time of Christ's birth, and in the promise of a restored, regenerated nation of Israel.
The church did NOT bring forth the man child.

Daniel 11:32 IS NOT THE CHURCH.
The church was a "mystery" and did not exist until Paul brought forth its position. How in the world you or anyone could in any way make Daniel 11:32 out to be the church is beyond my capabilities of understanding.

Now as for your comment of........
"As Riberra correctly says: very few, if any will become Christian during the GT. Even the two Witnesses don't seem to be able to change anyone."

My comment to you is.....DO YOU GUYS EVER READ THE BIBLE??? (Yes, I am shouting at you).

Rev. 7: 9 ........
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,"

That describes people from every nation, tribe, people and language arriving in Heaven. This includes both Jews and Gentiles. The Church will have departed earlier, and Rev. 7:14 says these people came out of the Great Tribulation. The Greek word translated “out of” refers to both time and place, and means they arrive in Heaven before the Great Tribulation begins. Since the Trumpet judgments begin in Rev. 8:6 these would be people saved after the rapture during the time of the seal judgments.

I am having a real problem understanding how you guys can so purposefully distort the meaning of the Scriptures.

 

[Major1]

Revelation 9 and Revelation 16 show us that no sinners will turn to God during the Tribulation.

Revelation 9:20
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:21
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



The only exception will be those in Jerusalem who will turn to God after they will see the resurrection and ascension to Heaven of the 2 witnessses
Revelation 11:12-13
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

.....these freshly new JEWS believers along with the few Christians in Jerusalem at the time will be the group called the WOMAN in Revelation 12:14 that will flee in the wilderness.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

So apart from the 144,000 and the Woman who will be under direct God's protection ....all the other Christians will have to face the Beast and his minions...don't expect a rapture or any kind of other surnatural protection to avoid that.

The wrath of Satan and the Beast is NOT the wrath of God.

The wrath of God to AVENGE THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS will be poured out in the 7 Vials [Revelation 16] will happen after that the Beast will have slain nearly all the Christians who will refuse to take the Mark and worship his image.

Rev. 7:9.....
'After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands".

It seems that the Bible disagrees with you.

 

[Postvieww]

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Romans 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Romans 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

 

[Riberra]

Rev. 7:9.....
'After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands".

That describes people from every nation, tribe, people and language arriving in Heaven. This includes both Jews and Gentiles. The Church will have departed earlier, and Rev. 7:14 says these people came out of the Great Tribulation.

I don't know which Bible version you use but in KJV it is written they came out of great tribulation... NOT they came out of "THE" great tribulation.

They came out of great tribulation mean MARTYRS.
Their SOULS are in Heaven they are wearing white clothing like the Christians martyrs of the 5 th seal Revelation 6:9-15....they have not come there by a rapture .
The fine linen white clothing is the symbol of the righteousness of SAINTS.
Revelation 19:7-8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

If John had written they are those who have escaped the great tribulation then you would have something.

The Greek word translated “out of” refers to both time and place, and means they arrive in Heaven before the Great Tribulation begins.

-They came out of great tribulation.- not out of THE great tribulation.

Try to analyse the phrase the way it is written without adding to the Scripture.

Let me give you an example:-the captain of that boat came out of great storm-, based on your interpretation would mean that he was taken to Heaven.

Since the Trumpet judgments begin in Rev. 8:6 these would be people saved after the rapture during the time of the seal judgments.

These are the SOULS [in Heaven]of the CHRISTIANS martyrs slain during the 2,000 years of history since Jesus have ascended to Heaven.


The Bible tell us that those who will be killed by the BEAST begin to ARRIVE in Heaven in REVELATION 15:2.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

While that Revelation 15:8 tell us that no man was able to enter into the temple [IN HEAVEN], till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 15:8
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Which mean that all those that are mentioned in Revelation 19 are the SOULS of THE SAINTS.

 

[Major1]

I don't know which Bible version you use but in KJV it is written they came out of great tribulation... NOT they came out of "THE" great tribulation.

They came out of great tribulation mean MARTYRS.
Their SOULS are in Heaven they are wearing white cloting like the Christians martyrs of the 5 th seal Revelation 6:9-15....they have not come there by a rapture .

If John had written they are those who have escaped the great tribulation then you would have something.


-They came out of great tribulation.- not out of THE great tribulation.

Try to analyse the phrase the way it is written without adding to the Scripture.

Let me give you an example:-the captain of that boat came out of great storm-, based on your interpretation would mean that he was taken to Heaven.


These are the SOULS [in Heaven]of the CHRISTIANS martyrs slain during the 2,000 years of history since Jesus have ascended to Heaven.


The Bible tell us that those who will be killed by the BEAST begin to ARRIVE in Heaven in REVELATION 15:2.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

While that Revelation 15:8 tell us that no man was able to enter into the temple [IN HEAVEN], till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 15:8
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Just as I suspected. YOU do not read the Scriptures at all my friend. Please do yourself a favor and spend more time in the Bible and less on the internet agenda websites.

Revelation 7:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
" And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
"I said to him, “Sir,you know.” Then he told me:
These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
They washed their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb."

English Standard Version (ESV)
"I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

New International Version (NIV)
" I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Your understanding is completely flawed and false. But that is not new news is it????