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Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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Major1

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"for my thoughts are not your thoughts"

You can't use that passage to make sense of nonsense.

The Bible speaks to each one of use throug
"for my ways are not your ways"
You can't just use that passage as proof for everything that has no scriptural support.



If that were the case I could claim that the rapture will happen in my front yard only and if you want to be raptured you have to meet in my front yard. And then when you say "that's not in the bible" or "that doesn't make sense" then I could just say "for my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways".

See how that works? It's stupid.

It is too bad that you can not see how your words sound to everyone else.

How can you claim something about the Rapture when you have spent posting after posting telling all of us that there is NO Rapture. Now you want to use what you say will not exist it to prove a false thesis????

That makes about as much sense as your quote of 1 Corth. 15:25-26 and trying to make it say what YOU want to believe about life in the Millennium when it is not about that at all.

Come on brother, we are better than this!
 
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Riberra

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The 1st thing that came to my mind is that Jesus says that whoever are the people who are alive and going through this time period, they are saved by a combination of faith and works.

There is no Christian in our dispensation of the Age of Grace that needs to “endure until the end” to be saved. We are saved according to Ephesians 2:8,9, and kept saved according to Ephesians 1:13,14.

There is nothing in the Bible that tell the Christian to “endure” for salvation.
Revelation 3:12-13
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Paul taught and preached the doctrine of Eternal Security. But, obviously, the people living in the time of Matthew 24 are not saved that way. Hence, this will be our number one reason why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Church and it’s soon-coming Rapture.
There will be no coming soon rapture to take people to Heaven.

What you call the rapture is a caught up of the believers to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air at His Coming 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 ....there will be no u -turn....to Heaven.
Jesus will descend from Heaven to establish His Kingdom on the EARTH.
 
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Major1

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Revelation 3:12-13
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


There will be no coming soon rapture to take people to Heaven.

What you call the rapture is a caught up of the believers to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air at His Coming 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 ....there will be no u -turn....to Heaven.
Jesus will descend from Heaven to establish His Kingdom on the EARTH.

Revelation 3 is referring to the Jews.

Matthew 24 is also referring to the Jews.

You must always consider the context of any Bible verse or you will wind up mixing up and misunderstanding what was said and who it is said to.
 
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Riberra

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Revelation 3 is referring to the Jews.
Revelation 3 is clearly addressed to the CHURCHES

Revelation 3
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Matthew 24 is also referring to the Jews.

You must always consider the context of any Bible verse or you will wind up mixing up and misunderstanding what was said and who it is said to.
Do you agree that the 12 apostles were the 12 first Christians to whom Jesus was addressing those things ?
Jesus was addressing this to all those who will become Christians afterward ...including the Christians who will live in the End Times.

The Christians who will live in the End Times period will live in the worst period of time in history....in particular the Christians who will be alive during the 42 months reign of the Beast.
 
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Major1

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Do you agree that the 12 apostles were the 12 first Christians to whom Jesus was addressing those things ?
Jesus was addressing this to all those who will become Christians afterward ...including the Christians who will live in the End Times.

The Christians who will live in the End Times period will live in the worst period of time in history....in particular the Christians who will be alive during the reign of the Beast.

#1. YES.

#2. NO.

One of the problems in explaining the Scriptures is the failure to understand who is being spoken to.
Matthew is all about the Jews. Jews (the 12) asked Jesus what would be the end of the age.

For instance, Jesus, surveying the Jewish wickedness of his day, warned of an impending punishment in Matthew 23:36............
"All these things shall come upon this generation".

Now is that for you and me today???

NO! It was said to the Jews because of the consequences of the Jew’s rebellion and as a result, something was going to happen to THAT generation.

There are two extremes relative to Matthew 24.

First, there is the notion, advocated by the proponents of “realized eschatology,” or "Preterism" that all Bible prophecy, including everything within Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the event of Jerusalem’s destruction by the Romans in A.D. 70.

On the other hand, those who subscribe to the doctrine of “dispensational premillennialism” tend to view the whole of Matthew 24 as a sort of end-time manual which allows one to determine the characteristic events, and therefore the general time, at which the Lord will return to initiate his “millennial reign.”

Agreed. The believers during the Tribulation will be living in a time of unbelievable terror.
 
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Riberra

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Revelation 3 is referring to the Jews.
Revelation 3 is clearly addressed to the CHURCHES that were in existence when John wrote the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 3
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 
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Major1

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Revelation 3 is clearly addressed to the CHURCHES that were in existence when John wrote the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 3
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

You are correct. My apologies. I got the comments you posted Revelation 3 and also Matthew 24 mixed up in my thinking.

Thanks for the correction!
 
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Riberra

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#1. YES.

#2. NO.

One of the problems in explaining the Scriptures is the failure to understand who is being spoken to.
Matthew is all about the Jews. Jews (the 12) asked Jesus what would be the end of the age.

For instance, Jesus, surveying the Jewish wickedness of his day, warned of an impending punishment in Matthew 23:36............
"All these things shall come upon this generation".

Now is that for you and me today???


NO! It was said to the Jews because of the consequences of the Jew’s rebellion and as a result, something was going to happen to THAT generation.
Matthew 23:36 have been fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD... during THAT generation.
 
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Major1

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Revelation 3:12-13
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


There will be no coming soon rapture to take people to Heaven.

What you call the rapture is a caught up of the believers to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air at His Coming 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 ....there will be no u -turn....to Heaven.
Jesus will descend from Heaven to establish His Kingdom on the EARTH.

The interchanging of Matt. 24 and 1 Thess. 4 is very common.

I for one am not going to argue the differences. If you believe Matt. 24 is the Rapture then good for you. I do not think that it is.

When I read Matthew 24, I see that it begins with the disciples of Christ going with Him through the temple area and responding to His comments on the temple's destruction. There questions regarding the destruction of the temple and His subsequent coming of Messiah with its attendant ending of the present age giving way to the age of Messiah were very natural. Christ's answer to clarify His coming in the heavens in judgment after the temple's destruction and at the end of the age, including the tribulation period of Daniel's 70th week deals in detail with these questions.

But on the other hand, Paul the apostle is responding to the matter of the death of saints in view of an eager anticipation of an imminent coming of Christ for His church. The natural discussion centers in the certainty of a future resurrection founded in the redemptive acts of the Savior which takes on an eschatological and apocalyptic dimension, salvation as a future historical event.

(From.....Pre-Trib Research Center -)

1 Thessalonians serves as the foundation for, the teaching of Christ's coming with those who had died to be reunited with their bodies as well as with living believers. The salvation offered is not merely deliverance from the physical wrath of God but escape from that wrath relates to the soteriological dimensions of Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection. A similar idea is found in a later book by Paul, 1 Corinthians, where the certainty of the resurrection directly depends on the reality of the resurrection of Jesus.

In the Olivet Discourse the coming does not impinge on the ketygma but on the Messiah's nature and mission of judgment. The closest one gets is the statement of the gospel of the kingdom, but this is stated in general terms rather than "the gospel" as described by Paul in Romans 1:16. The comes to gather His elect for sure, but the emphasis is not on gathering them to Him in the air and the elect are not resurrected ones, but the Jews, most likely, scattered in the diasporas to the four corners of the earth (v. 31). His coming, as well, is primarily not one of comfort, but one that brings mourning (v. 30) and judgment on the earth (probably vv. 36-41; v. 29).
 
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Riberra

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The interchanging of Matt. 24 and 1 Thess. 4 is very common.
There is only ONE coming of Jesus yet to come....At His coming those who died in Christ will be resurrected and the believers alive and remain will be changed...there is no trip to Heaven mentioned to occurs after the resurrection.

The comes to gather His elect for sure, but the emphasis is not on gathering them to Him in the air and the elect are not resurrected ones, but the Jews, most likely, scattered in the diasporas to the four corners of the earth (v. 31). His coming, as well, is primarily not one of comfort, but one that brings mourning (v. 30) and judgment on the earth (probably vv. 36-41; v. 29).
Those who will mourn [the sinners]are afraid because they know that their end is near...while the Christians still alive and remain know that their deliverance is arrived....
1 Thess. 4
 
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Major1

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Matthew 23:36 have been fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD... during THAT generation.

I agree that the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

I know that you are a Preterist and want me to say that ALL those things have been fulfilled.
 
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Major1

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There is only ONE coming of Jesus yet to come....At His coming those who died in Christ will be resurrected and the believers alive and remain will be changed...there is no trip to Heaven mentioned to occurs after the resurrection.


Those who will mourn [the sinners]are afraid because they know that their end is near...while the Christians still alive and remain know that their deliverance is arrived.
1 Thess. 4

And there is where we disagree. I believe the Bible teaches us that Jesus comes the next time in the Rapture and then 7 years later at Armageddon.

There will be believers alive on the earth at that time but they are not the Chruch.
 
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Riberra

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I agree that the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

I know that you are a Preterist and want me to say that ALL those things have been fulfilled.
No,I am not a Preterist....i said Matthew 23:36 have been fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD... during THAT generation.

Which left lot of things that have not been fulfilled in Matthew 24
 
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Major1

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No,I am not a Preterist....i said Matthew 23:36 have been fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD... during THAT generation.

Which left lot of thing that have not been fulfilled in Matthew 24.

Agreed. If you are not a preterist my apologies to you. I am debating two other people and they are preterist so it possible I confused you with them.
 
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Riberra

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And there is where we disagree. I believe the Bible teaches us that Jesus comes the next time in the Rapture and then 7 years later at Armageddon.

There will be believers alive on the earth at that time but they are not the Chruch.
When Jesus will come down from Heaven that will be to Establish His Kingdom on the Earth....Jesus will not make a U-turn and come back to Heaven with some selected people.
 
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How can you claim something about the Rapture when you have spent posting after posting telling all of us that there is NO Rapture. Now you want to use what you say will not exist it to prove a false thesis????
Obviously that was an example of nonsense which I thought you could relate to (hence the rapture in my example) but of course the point went completely over your head.

The point is you can't just make up nonsense (like in my example) and then when people call you on it say "the lords ways are not our ways" as if that makes sense out of the nonsense.
 
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keras

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I believe the Bible teaches us that Jesus comes the next time in the Rapture and then 7 years later at Armageddon.
A statement like this MUST be supported by clear scriptural proof.
You are discussing these things with people here that know their Bibles very well and we know such a thing as a rapture removal to heaven for living Christians is simply not what God has planned for His people.
It would be better for you to not promote such teachings, believe it if you must, but remember James 3:1 admonition.
However, this discussion has the benefit of [hopefully?] making others, who may have only been taught an end time rapture, to consider alternatives.
And the alternative to going to heaven, is going to live in all of the holy Land. Where we Christians, redeemed by the Lord will live in peace and prosperity, blessed by Him, as we fulfil our destiny of being His witnesses and a people who display His Light to the nations.
I have scripture in bucketsful to prove this truth.

Here's an exercise for you: read Psalms 107:1-43 Who is that Psalm talking about? Where do they go? What do they do? [v22 & v32] Who will observe and understand these things? v43.
 
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Let me get this straight. You don't want to discuss my points, but you want me to discuss your points, points that I have already refuted in my opening post? Then don't waste your time.

No, I did not want you to discuss my points. I wanted to offer you a resource that offered an answer to your question. None of the material that was offered in that resource was refuted by your opening post or in any you have made since. But, after reading the rude way in which you have responded to everyone who has offered to answer your question, I now realize that the ONLY reasonable thing you have said thus far, is for me not to "waste my time." The fact is, after your open hostility toward everyone who has tried to engage you with scriptural evidence in this discussion, I can only conclude you're not worthy of my time in explaining it. You stand there like a spoiled child on top of a hill, beating your chest, screaming, "somebody bring me the answer," even though you're only going to reject anyone who attempts it. So, instead, I'm going to give you some other scripture to consider, but, I doubt you'll gain any understanding from it.

Let's start in Proverbs:

"A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel," (Proverbs 1:5)
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel." (Proverbs 12:15)

Instead of considering the counsel of those who believe in Christ, and come in His name, you reject them outright and mistreat them. In light of that, maybe you should consider this parable:

And He began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time. "At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him some of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. “And he proceeded to send another slave; and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty-handed. “And he proceeded to send a third; and this one also they wounded and cast out. “The owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’ “But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.’ “So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? “He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others.” When they heard it, they said, “May it never be!” (Luke 20:9-16)

Here's another Proverb:

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter." (Proverbs 25:2)

With a verse from elsewhere to go with it...

"And has made us kings and priests to God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:6)


So, SINCE you have rejected the counsel of those who've attempted to share it with, AND SINCE (if you believe in Christ) you have been made a King and a Priest to God the Father, AND SINCE the glory of Kings is to search out a matter, it is YOUR responsibility to find out the answer for yourself, and quit harassing those you asked to answer you, so that maybe, if you have in a shred of humility that is supposed to be characteristic of Christ's followers, you might learn from Paul's instruction to Timothy:

"Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

As for me, I've just about reached the end of what I'm going to share with you, because I know from the evidence you've displayed so far, and from witnessing the haughtiness of your spirit, that you are only seeking an occasion to trample the pearls offered you, by several of the Lord's servants, beneath your feet as illustrated by the words of Jesus, Himself, when he said:

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

So, with that sound advice from the Lord in mind, I'm shaking off the dust of my feet, as He also instructed His disciples:

“Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15)

With all of that being said, I'll close by saying that there's no need for you to respond to this, as I will not communicate further. I doubt you'll be able to resist, though, and, to be perfectly honest, I hope you do quote this and respond, because a tree is known by its fruit. Whether you do or don't, though, I'll pray for you.
 
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precepts

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No, I did not want you to discuss my points. I wanted to offer you a resource that offered an answer to your question. None of the material that was offered in that resource was refuted by your opening post or in any you have made since. But, after reading the rude way in which you have responded to everyone who has offered to answer your question, I now realize that the ONLY reasonable thing you have said thus far, is for me not to "waste my time." The fact is, after your open hostility toward everyone who has tried to engage you with scriptural evidence in this discussion, I can only conclude you're not worthy of my time in explaining it. You stand there like a spoiled child on top of a hill, beating your chest, screaming, "somebody bring me the answer," even though you're only going to reject anyone who attempts it. So, instead, I'm going to give you some other scripture to consider, but, I doubt you'll gain any understanding from it.

Let's start in Proverbs:

"A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel," (Proverbs 1:5)
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel." (Proverbs 12:15)

Instead of considering the counsel of those who believe in Christ, and come in His name, you reject them outright and mistreat them. In light of that, maybe you should consider this parable:

And He began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time. "At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him some of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. “And he proceeded to send another slave; and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty-handed. “And he proceeded to send a third; and this one also they wounded and cast out. “The owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’ “But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.’ “So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? “He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others.” When they heard it, they said, “May it never be!” (Luke 20:9-16)

Here's another Proverb:

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter." (Proverbs 25:2)

With a verse from elsewhere to go with it...

"And has made us kings and priests to God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:6)


So, SINCE you have rejected the counsel of those who've attempted to share it with, AND SINCE (if you believe in Christ) you have been made a King and a Priest to God the Father, AND SINCE the glory of Kings is to search out a matter, it is YOUR responsibility to find out the answer for yourself, and quit harassing those you asked to answer you, so that maybe, if you have in a shred of humility that is supposed to be characteristic of Christ's followers, you might learn from Paul's instruction to Timothy:

"Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

As for me, I've just about reached the end of what I'm going to share with you, because I know from the evidence you've displayed so far, and from witnessing the haughtiness of your spirit, that you are only seeking an occasion to trample the pearls offered you, by several of the Lord's servants, beneath your feet as illustrated by the words of Jesus, Himself, when he said:

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

So, with that sound advice from the Lord in mind, I'm shaking off the dust of my feet, as He also instructed His disciples:

“Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15)

With all of that being said, I'll close by saying that there's no need for you to respond to this, as I will not communicate further. I doubt you'll be able to resist, though, and, to be perfectly honest, I hope you do quote this and respond, because a tree is known by its fruit. Whether you do or don't, though, I'll pray for you.
OH, BOY! Now I know why Christ said could anything good come out of Israel?
 
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Psalm3704

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Oh, I see. You're assuming that this verse about the multitude is referring to those who were resurrected when Jesus died without any proof whatsoever. You believe a lot of stuff without proof, don't you?

:doh::doh::doh:

It's no wonder you have problems solving the bible. You just assume left and right without giving any thought to anything.

Triple facepalm.

And since you can't figure out your left foot from your right foot from the things you read, NO!!! I did not imply Revelation 7:9 has anything to do with Matthew 27:53. That's just your own brain storming up false ideas. Which I'll say isn't a whole lot inside.










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