Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[precepts]

As I understand the Rapture is a doctrine replacing the first resurrection; what the first and second coming means when Christ is always with us is a mystery. The first death that everyone dies is considered sleep, the second death is death and this is the death Christ refers to when telling the Pharisees they will not taste death until the see the kingdom come.

So what are you saying then?

 

[precepts]

Sorry, friend. I was only trying to provide you and your posters with a resource that would, in fact, answer your original question. But, since you seem unwilling to look at it there, I'll come back after work today and see if I can summarize it for you here.

Let me get this straight. You don't want to discuss my points, but you want me to discuss your points, points that I have already refuted in my opening post? Then don't waste your time.

 

[Psalm3704]

There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ...if you can find a Bible verse saying that they have ascended in their resurrected body in Heaven then show us that verse...By doing so you will be able to prove your point.

That resurrection Jesus performed at the cross raised billions of people from the time Abel died up until the time Christ died on the cross.

If you believe they didn't ascend to Paradise as Jesus told the thief and came back to life walking the earth, than you should have no problem finding numerous evidences that billions of the walking dead roam the earth during the first century when do a google search.








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[Psalm3704]

Do you know what the sentence UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD means ?Hint, it surely does not mean BEFORE His Coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

You're misunderstanding 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Riberra. Paul is merely telling us who goes up first at the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (GW) We are telling you what the Lord taught. We who are still alive when the Lord comes will not go [into his kingdom] ahead of those who have already died.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (BBE) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are still living at the coming of the Lord, will not go before those who are sleeping.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (CEB) What we are saying is a message from the Lord: we who are alive and still around at the Lord's coming definitely won't go ahead of those who have died.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (CJB) When we say this, we base it on the Lord's own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died.

Read more here: 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have .












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[Riberra]

Thats resurrection Jesus performed at the cross raised billions of people from the time Abel died up until the time Christ died on the cross.

Only Their Spirit /Soul have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ...none of them have received an immortal physical body.

If you can show us a Bible verse saying that they have received a physical immortal body at that moment you will be able to prove your point.

 

[Riberra]

double post

 

[Psalm3704]

Only Their Spirit /Soul have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ...none of them have received an immortal physical body.

If you can show us a Bible verse saying that they have received a physical immortal body at that moment you will be able to prove your point.

Well if that's what you original meant to write, than you should be more specific and write:

Only Their Spirit /Soul have ascended to Heaven with Jesus​

Instead of writing:

There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus

There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus .

Because in your prior post, you're telling readers no one physically went to heaven, and never mentioned anything about their soul.

There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus​

Which is also incorrect and refuted from the bible.

Only Their Spirit /Soul have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ...none of them have received an immortal physical body.

If you can show us a Bible verse saying that they have received a physical immortal body at that moment you will be able to prove your point.

I do have the scriptures to prove this Riberra and is more than happy to post it.

First you show us a bible verse revealing a sign in the sky that saids "U-Turn available after the tribulation."











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[Riberra]

Well if that's what you original meant to write, than you should be more specific and write:

Only Their Spirit /Soul have ascended to Heaven with Jesus​

Instead of writing:

There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus

​

Because in your prior post, you're telling readers no one physically went to heaven, and never mentioned anything about their soul.

You quote my Post 346
Here the part that you have missed:
Jesus have descended to Sheol to preach the Gospel to the SPIRITS /SOULS who where there ....The SOULS of them in Sheol [the OT believers]who have accepted Jesus Have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ....none of those OT Saints in Sheol have ascended to Heaven in a resurrected immortal physical body.

There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus​

Which is also incorrect and refuted from the bible.

Then show us the Bible verses saying that -the many saints-that were seen coming out of their graves described in Matthew 27:51-52, have ascended to Heaven in their resurrected physical body with Jesus.

 

[precepts]

Power to the people! Oops... wrong thread.

 

[LastSeven]

Thats resurrection Jesus performed at the cross raised billions of people from the time Abel died up until the time Christ died on the cross.

If you believe they didn't ascend to Paradise as Jesus told the thief and came back to life walking the earth, than you should have no problem finding numerous evidences that billions of the walking dead roam the earth during the first century when do a google search.
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Billions? My bible says "many". It also says they went into the city, so I'm not sure how you would fit billions of people inside the city.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Major1]

Do you know what the sentence UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD means ?Hint, it surely does not mean BEFORE His Coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Thank you for your question, and YES I do know.

The Greek word for the phrase you posted is παρουσία. According to Young’s Concordance, the word means to be near or alongside.

It is used when speaking of the rapture of the church which is seen in 1 Cor 15:23; 1 Thess 2:19; 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thess 2:1.

When Paul states, “We that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep” in 1 Thess 4:15, the CONTEXT and literal word he is using obviously refers to the Rapture of the church.

 

[Major1]

Thus you admit that this have nothing to do with what you call ''the first phase'' of the resurrection to immortality mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 .

Obviously that is the case. As I said, Lazarus was not a resurrection as he lived after the event and then died a natural death many years later.

It seems that you missed it but I actually have said in this very thread that Jesus Christ is the "Firstfruits".

Jesus Christ was the first person to be resurrected. He rose from the grave three days after he was crucified. His resurrection was the culminating factor of the Atonement.

 

[Major1]

Thus you admit that this have nothing to do with what you call ''the first phase'' of the resurrection to immortality mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 .At this point only Jesus have been raised to immortality.

You seem to behaving a real problem understanding this.

YES, Lazarus had nothing to do with the 1st Resurrection as Christ was the FIRST resurrected.

Now, bodily YES would then be the answer. Spiritually, NO would be the answer. All believers spirits go to be with the Lord at death. Then at the Rapture, the 2nd Phase of the First Resurrection, the bodies of those saints will be glorified with their spirits and forever more be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6–8 ....
"So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

At this resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirits which are in heaven already. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

I suggest you read Revelation 21-22.

 

[LastSeven]

You seem to behaving a real problem understanding this.

YES, Lazarus had nothing to do with the 1st Resurrection as Christ was the FIRST resurrected.

Now, bodily YES would then be the answer. Spiritually, NO would be the answer. All believers spirits go to be with the Lord at death. Then at the Rapture, the 2nd Phase of the First Resurrection, the bodies of those saints will be glorified with their spirits and forever more be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6–8 ....
"So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

At this resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirits which are in heaven already. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

I suggest you read Revelation 21-22.

It saddens me every time I hear this story parroted. He gave us the scriptures. All we have to do is read them and stop adding stuff to them.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Major1]

The way I see it is that the nephesh returns to God, the same nephesh that God breathes into Adam at His creation. The word used says nothing about human consciousness being preserved after death apart from post ressurection in a ressurection body.

As a result I am of the opinion that a person who is asleep (as in dead), is in fact dead. The persons "name" is remembered by God, which in the broadest of terms is the same as soul, and it is only when God calls us from the grave at the end of the age that concious existence is resumed.





I see no floaty diembodied spirit thing going on in the Bible as far as human beings are concerned.

This is informative: www.robertwr.com/resurrection.pdf

Honestly???

In 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Paul wrote that.........
“We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord…and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

Do you see somehere in this text where there is a time differential between death and being in the presence of the Lord???

Then in 2 Cointhians 5:8........
"We are confident I say and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

Does the word "PRESENT" not say to you that there will be a POSITIION involved? Do you see any time differential with this verse as well???

You see my friend, to be present with someone obviously means that they would have to be with them WHERE THEY ARE.

When I got married, my soon to be wife had to be present with me or we could not have gotten married.

In 2 Tim. 4:6-8 we see ..........
“For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.”

Notice that Paul says that his “departure is near.” This departure being near is written within the context of this paragraph where he says that “there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day.”

What day!? It seems clear that Paul’s departure is near and that then there will be awarded to him “the crown of righteousness” on that day! Do you see that? He is near his earthly departure and what awaits him is a crown of righteous to be given to him on that day! It appears to be the same day that he departs that he will receive this crown. He could have modified this sentence to the effect of saying, “Then, at the Lord’s return, I will receive the crown of righteousness” but he doesn’t. He says that it will be awarded to him on “that day!”

Now, if you do not see that then it is because you are having a conflict with the Word of God my friend......NOT ME!

 

[Major1]

It saddens me every time I hear this story parroted. He gave us the scriptures. All we have to do is read them and stop adding stuff to them.

Sent from mTalk

Absolutely agreed! It is right there in the black and white and sometimes red for us to read and understand.

 

[LastSeven]

Absolutely agreed! It is right there in the black and white and sometimes red for us to read and understand.

And yet, you still think we go straight to heaven as spirits when we die. Makes absolutely no sense and it's anti biblical but I guess you prefer the Disney version of Christianity.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Major1]

Billions? My bible says "many". It also says they went into the city, so I'm not sure how you would fit billions of people inside the city.

Sent from mTalk

How many would YOU say died as believers and were in the Paradise side of Sheol from Adam to Jesus's death?

Since the Matthew passage says “many holy people” rather than “all the holy people” I would understand your point.

I would also say that all those who had died in faith of a coming redeemer were brought out of Paradise after the Resurrection. (Ephes. 4:8).

Some, perhaps those who would be easily identifiable, were given a physical presence to fulfill the wave offering requirement and confirm the prophecies about the resurrection of the dead, such as Daniel 12:2. All went to heaven with the Lord to await their resurrection bodies at the end of the Great Tribulation.

 

[LastSeven]

How many would YOU say died as believers and were in the Paradise side of Sheol from Adam to Jesus's death?

Since the Matthew passage says “many holy people” rather than “all the holy people” I would understand your point.

I would also say that all those who had died in faith of a coming redeemer were brought out of Paradise after the Resurrection. (Ephes. 4:8).

Some, perhaps those who would be easily identifiable, were given a physical presence to fulfill the wave offering requirement and confirm the prophecies about the resurrection of the dead, such as Daniel 12:2. All went to heaven with the Lord to await their resurrection bodies at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Daniel 12:2 was not fulfilled when Jesus died. That doesn't happen until the end of days.

The bible doesn't tell us much about the resurrection at the time of Jesus death but my impression is that some of the people buried in local tombs we're resurrected. Maybe a few dozen or a hundred.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Major1]

And yet, you still think we go straight to heaven as spirits when we die. Makes absolutely no sense and it's anti biblical but I guess you prefer the Disney version of Christianity.

Sent from mTalk[/QUOTE
What I think is not important.

What God says is what matters my friend. YOU certainly do not have to agree with me but I am not the one to be concerned about.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
" Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Does there appear to be a time difference in that verse between death and being with the Lord?????