Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[LastSeven]

It certainly doesn't say that as soon as you die you go to be with the lord, but I guess you see what you want to see.

 

[Major1]

Daniel 12:2 was not fulfilled when Jesus died. That doesn't happen until the end of days.

The bible doesn't tell us much about the resurrection at the time of Jesus death but my impression is that some of the people buried in local tombs we're resurrected. Maybe a few dozen or a hundred.

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That is similar to what was said about Jesus, after His resurrection. He appeared unto many, but not to everyone.

I Corinthians 15:1-8 says......
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."

Because of this limited appearance, they must have gone to heaven with the Lord when He ascended.

I Corinthains 15:20-23 says.....
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Just like God used Enoch to be an illustration of the truth that he was preaching in Jude 14.......
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints."

Genesis 5:24........
"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Hebrews 11:5.......
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Even so, God gave an illustration at Jesus' death what it accomplished and what it promised for the future for those who have placed their faith in Him -- resurrection from the dead in victory.

If those resurrected saints would have had to die and go back to the grave after that resurrection, that would have been giving a false picture that after the resurrection a person can still suffer death.

I Corinthians 15:12-20 says........
"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Matthew 22:31,32 says......
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:26,27 says......
"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Luke 20:34-36 says......
"And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION."

So you see my friends. This is not ad debate with me and whether or not you are right and I am wrong. It is and alays will be about what the Scriptures actually say and what you think of them, and not what you think of me.

 

[Major1]

It certainly doesn't say that as soon as you die you go to be with the lord, but I guess you see what you want to see.

That would also be true my friend.

It means that some people pretend not to know what they don’t like or are afraid of.

It can also mean that people are not aware of something in front of them due to their limited knowledge, experience, and/or perspective, which affects their mindset or their agenda.

It’s similar to a confirmation bias, where people come to conclusions based on their own perspective, based on what makes them feel comfortable and confident in their thinking.

 

[LastSeven]

Because of this limited appearance, they must have gone to heaven with the Lord when He ascended.

Huh? I hope you're being facetious here.

If those resurrected saints would have had to die and go back to the grave after that resurrection, that would have been giving a false picture that after the resurrection a person can still suffer death.

Nonsense. You're making huge leaps from scripture. Enoch was transformed before he went into heaven, because flesh can not inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Bible gives us no indication whatsoever that these resurrected were transformed. Lazarus also was not transformed when he was resurrected, but do you believe that Lazarus never died again?

I Corinthians 15:12-20 says........
"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Notice that Paul uses Jesus' resurrection as the example of what's to come, not the resurrection of those at his death.

Matthew 22:31,32 says......
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:26,27 says......
"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Luke 20:34-36 says......
"And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION."

Is any of this supposed to prove that those resurrected at Jesus' death were transformed into immortals? Cause... it doesn't.

So you see my friends. This is not ad debate with me and whether or not you are right and I am wrong. It is and alays will be about what the Scriptures actually say and what you think of them, and not what you think of me.

Classic pastor speak. You say all the right things but still use eisegesis. It's no wonder churches nowadays are full of confusion.

 

[Major1]

Huh? I hope you're being facetious here.

Nonsense. You're making huge leaps from scripture. Enoch was transformed before he went into heaven, because flesh can not inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Bible gives us no indication whatsoever that these resurrected were transformed. Lazarus also was not transformed when he was resurrected, but do you believe that Lazarus never died again?


Notice that Paul uses Jesus' resurrection as the example of what's to come, not the resurrection of those at his death.

Is any of this supposed to prove that those resurrected at Jesus' death were transformed into immortals? Cause... it doesn't.


Classic pastor speak. You say all the right things but still use eisegesis. It's no wonder churches nowadays are full of confusion.

LOL!!!

Actually the churches I know are well grounded in the Word of God.

It is "religious" web sites where I see the confusion manifest itself.

Some of it is confusion but most of it is outright false teaching by those who have an agenda.

 

[LastSeven]

LOL!!!

Actually the churches I know are well grounded in the Word of God.

It is "religious" web sites where I see the confusion manifest itself.

Some of it is confusion but most of it is outright false teaching by those who have an agenda.

I don't think you understand. It's pastors such as yourself who are causing the confusion. And of course you can't see that because you think you're preaching the truth.

 

[Major1]

I don't think you understand. It's pastors such as yourself who are causing the confusion. And of course you can't see that because you think you're preaching the truth.

And just when did you assume I am a pastor?

Do you think that only Pastors are the ones who study and are educated in the Word of God?

 

[Straightshot]

The spirit of a dead man is returned to His Maker

And the spirit of a dead man knows nothing [is not conscious of time passing]

No one has gone to heaven, but the One who has come down from heaven

All of the spirits of dead men are waiting for His call either to eternal life .... or to eternal damnation

When He calls the dead in Christ will be made immortal and those living at the time will be transformed to immortality and will not have time to die .... all in a split second

Then He is going to judge a world of total unbelief

Some will turn to Him during His period of wrath and martyred for their faith, but will have to wait for their changing until the end of the judgment

And some of these will survive as mortals

Those who are found believing will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... as mortals

Those found in unbelief will be rejected

This kingdom will end in another human rebellion and He will purge all unbelievers

Then He will bring His eternal kingdom with a new heavens and new earth which will never end .... for all who have believed in Him

This simple progression has been horribly maligned by the religions of men for proprietary ambitions

 

[Riberra]

You seem to behaving a real problem understanding this.

Hmm...not really

YES, Lazarus had nothing to do with the 1st Resurrection as Christ was the FIRST resurrected.

My point is exactly that Lazarus have not been resurrected with an immortal body and that the many Saints who have raised from their graves [Matthew 27:51-52]have NOT received a immortal physical body.

as Christ was the FIRST resurrected.

Yes ,Jesus was the FIRST resurrected in a IMMORTAL PHYSICAL BODY....
Which lead us to the timing of the massive resurrection of the DEAD believers.... Which will happen AT HIS COMING ....not 7 years before.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The sentence -afterward they that are Christ's at his coming- PROVE that nobody EXCEPT JESUS have received a immortal physical body.Thus your claim that the many saints who were seen coming out of their graves mentioned in [Matthew 27:51-52]have received a immortal physical body and ascended to Heaven with Jesus is disproved by Scripture....My friend !

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Psalm3704]

You quote my Post 346
Here the part that you have missed:
Jesus have descended to Sheol to preach the Gospel to the SPIRITS /SOULS who where there ....The SOULS of them in Sheol [the OT believers]who have accepted Jesus Have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ....none of those OT Saints in Sheol have ascended to Heaven in a resurrected immortal physical body.

And if you read down even further, you've misinterpret 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and Matthew 24:29-31 as being one in the same parallel scriptures.

Jesus have descended to Sheol to preach the Gospel to the SPIRITS /SOULS who where there ....The SOULS of them in Sheol [the OT believers]who have accepted Jesus Have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ....none of those OT Saints in Sheol have ascended to Heaven in a resurrected immortal physical body.

That resurrection will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS 1 Thessalonians 4:15.Jesus tell us about His Coming in Matthew 24:29-31Jesus will be visible in the clouds ---we will meet Jesus in the clouds in the air....1 Thessalonians 4:17

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Nobody will go to heaven after the resurrection .We will reign with Jesus here on the Earth.

Complete error!!!

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15, Paul is merely telling us who goes up first at the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (GW) We are telling you what the Lord taught. We who are still alive when the Lord comes will not go [into his kingdom] ahead of those who have already died.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (BBE) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are still living at the coming of the Lord, will not go before those who are sleeping.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (CEB) What we are saying is a message from the Lord: we who are alive and still around at the Lord's coming definitely won't go ahead of those who have died.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (CJB) When we say this, we base it on the Lord's own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died.

Read more here: 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have .


So Riberra, are we gonna stay on the topic of Matthew 27:51-52, or do we need to keep changing the subject and argue about something else till we win the argument, having the last word?





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Then show us the Bible verses saying that -the many saints-that were seen coming out of their graves described in Matthew 27:51-52, have ascended to Heaven in their resurrected physical body with Jesus.

Oh sure. Just show us where in the bible it teaches a sign in the sky that said "U-Turn available after the tribulation."

Let's make more silly requests whenever we run out of ideas trying to get the last word in and win the argument, right Riberra?











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[Psalm3704]

Which lead us to the timing of the massive resurrection of the DEAD believers.... Which will happen AT HIS COMING ....not 7 years before.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The sentence -afterward they that are Christ's at his coming- PROVE that nobody EXCEPT JESUS have received a immortal physical body.

You're not reading it with competence. It said in verse 22, all will be made alive.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

This is not speaking of the rapture. Not all will be raptured. Sinners and unbelievers will not get rapture.

The death Paul spoke of concerning Adam was the spiritual death he suffered in the garden, not the physical death Adam died of 930 years later.

Through Jesus, all will be made righteous and know God (alive) is what Paul meant. After that happens, Christ hands the kingdom back to God when the world is ready for His eternal kingdom.

Now read it again.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.​

~In verse 22, because of Adam, all died a spiritual death (a separation from God at birth), but through Christ, all will once again have a relationship with God. (be made alive).

~Verse 23 is merely telling you the order at which those made alive.

~Verse 24 is the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21.













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[Psalm3704]

Billions? My bible says "many". It also says they went into the city, so I'm not sure how you would fit billions of people inside the city.

Revelation 7:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,​

The same way you fit a countless number of people in a single room, you improvise.










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[LastSeven]

Revelation 7:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,​

The same way you fit a countless number of people in a single room, you improvise.
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Oh, I see. You're assuming that this verse about the multitude is referring to those who were resurrected when Jesus died without any proof whatsoever. You believe a lot of stuff without proof, don't you?

 

[LastSeven]

And just when did you assume I am a pastor?

Do you think that only Pastors are the ones who study and are educated in the Word of God?

Your profile page says you are a retired pastor.

 

[Major1]

Your profile page says you are a retired pastor.

 

[Major1]

Revelation 7:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,​

The same way you fit a countless number of people in a single room, you improvise.

Agreed.

Is. 55:8-9........
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”













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[Major1]

Why should we think that 1 Thes 4 is speaking of anything other than the resurrection on the last day that Jesus spoke of?

The 1st thing that came to my mind is that Jesus says that whoever are the people who are alive and going through this time period, they are saved by a combination of faith and works.

There is no Christian in our dispensation of the Age of Grace that needs to “endure until the end” to be saved. We are saved according to Ephesians 2:8,9, and kept saved according to Ephesians 1:13,14.

There is nothing in the Bible that tell the Christian to “endure” for salvation. Paul taught and preached the doctrine of Eternal Security. But, obviously, the people living in the time of Matthew 24 are not saved that way. Hence, this will be our number one reason why Matthew 24 is not talking about the Church and it’s soon-coming Rapture.

Then the 2nd thing that I thought of is that when Jesus was talking to His Jewish disciples answering their question as to when the end of the age would be.......there was at that time NO church to be delivered/Raptured/Resurrected. The Church was not in existence at that time so for it to be resurrected at the 2nd Coming which He is talking about in Matthew 24:31-35 makes no sense at all.

 

[LastSeven]

"for my thoughts are not your thoughts"

You can't use that passage to make sense of nonsense.

 

[Major1]

"for my thoughts are not your thoughts"

You can't use that passage to make sense of nonsense.

Sure I can. The Bible speaks to each one of us through different passages.

Romans 14:5..........
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

 

[LastSeven]

"for my ways are not your ways"
You can't just use that passage as proof for everything that has no scriptural support.

Sure I can. The Bible speaks to each one of us through different passages.

Romans 14:5..........
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

If that were the case I could claim that the rapture will happen in my front yard only and if you want to be raptured you have to meet in my front yard. And then when you say "that's not in the bible" or "that doesn't make sense" then I could just say "for my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways".

See how that works? It's stupid.