Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

My sincere advice to you would be to walk away from all of the truths and witnesses you feel you have had and start anew in the holy spirit. Not only are you making serious fundamental errors,

Hello again and God bless,

No its impossible to walk away from the truth I have been shown and have shown here. i am willing to carefully examine all things and i do. But so far it seems like you miss the key points i try to make and try hard to skirt around the issue and deflect truth to some other aspect or irritated issue. but none of the 800 pages is even necessary, for the very reason that when we need to witness, it is the holy spirit himself who speaks, not us with all of the truths we may have seen. I would much prefer to speak his words and not my own, unless my words were to offer testimony of Jesus. Matthew 10:20 and Revelation 19:10. The words you are reading here are a combination of both, as were those of my previous post. I very rarely write anything that is not one or the other or both.

Regardless, you will not find any prohibition in the Bible against the use of the word "respect". We are only told not to be a respecters of persons, which is a matter of spirit, not the word itself.

??? your answer is an attempt to simply deny the clear rebuke I gave to you for respecting persons.

You say "you will not find any prohibition in the Bible against the use of the word "respect"

Contrary to

""My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons....9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2;1,9 KJV)"

and yes this is clearly in the bible. You may never have heard such a rebuke to you and so you try to justify yourself. You are clearly against scripture here when you say you respect me. I understand how the modern world tries to use respect. But they are wrong, just like they say we should be proud of ourselves and our accomplishments. They throw around the word "be proud" as if it is a good thing. The word "respect" is similar.

I have scripture to correct you there and you have none, you have surmising and your own attempt to wrest scripture, sadly

and yes I am a Christian I have been one for almost 30 years. if you can't call me a christian that does not move me at all. I guess it depends on your definition of a christian.

No, sorry, this is when he called them, just as the verse says. Your assumption that they were also given to him at this moment is not warranted, nor is it supported by Scripture. We must not go beyond what is written. 1 Corinthians 4:6.

I said (quoting scripture)

""I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." ( John 17:6)

Here we see that the men that were given to Jesus were also called unto him in matthew 10 "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples..." This is when they were given to him.

You seem to be saying that they were not given in the past?. Or something to that affect. When Jesus says "thine they WERE" he is referring to a past even before they were given to Jesus. He does not say "Thine they are now" , but thine they WERE past tense.. You seem to miss this or deliberately avoid the consequence of this. Because you know that what Jesus is saying here, by saying that all the 12 apostles belonged to the Father in the past shatters your case. But that is not a honest way to deal with the text as you do. You seem to just avoid the main aspects of the verse and pick and chose what you think relates to your case.

I am saying what Jesus says and scripture teaches. That the 12 apostles, belonged to the father before they were given to jesus, and when Jesus called HIS 12 disciples, this is when they were connected to his earthly ministry. They were already HIS and already belonged to the Father as John 17, refers. This is very clear to the unbiased reader.

When did the father give them to jesus? obviously not at that moment he was speaking. Jesus uses the past tense , "they were". to clarify. I don't know why you can't see this.

Actually i have heard many try to avoid clear scriptures that correct their views using all sorts of strained and twisted arguments in the past, it happens often.

In fact, they (those who believed in him, which is to say, the Eleven) were given to him before the creation of the world. Ephesians 1:4-6.

You say the 11, and that is your private interpretation. Jesus clearly is referring to the 12 even the context shows this in John 17. When Jesus says that of all those that were given to him, none of them ( of the ones given or of the 12) is lost but Judas. So one of the ones that were given in the past by the Father were lost.

Note that he explicitly says, "...and they have kept your word" and also "...and they have believed that you sent me."

I already dealt with this showing that Judas once did keep his word and had part of the ministry and apostleship and was successful as others and followed jesus in the early days of his ministry. We read of Judas fall in the later years in John especially. Paul even said that some have turned aside after satan, and in the last days many believers will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. This being led away , or giving heed and following after satan, is what Judas must have done some time in the ministry to have it written about him that he fell by transgression. You cannot fall if you are always fallen.

Now, please take a look again at John 6:64, and let's add John 6:65 this time.

64 "But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 Then He said, “For this reason I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it were given him by My Father.”

Your argument is flawed. Jesus knows all men and yes God knows what men will do but he did not make them sin. God Knew that Lucifer would fall and end up in the lake of fire yet he still created him perfect in all his ways and as a covering Cherub, who walked with God. God walks with any as long as they walk with him. But if they forsake him he will forsake them. This is similar in the case with Judas. Just knowing what a man will do in time does not make God not walk close to them while they are with him.

From this, if I may borrow your words, it is abundantly clear to the unbiased reader that Jesus was speaking of Judas, that Judas never believed (and therefore never kept the Father's word), and that no one can come to Jesus (as Savior) unless it were given him by his Father. Since salvation comes only by believing in Jesus, and Judas never did, he was never saved.

No it is not clear at all. many believers who walk with God can depart from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief (Hebrews 3:12) and so Judas who believed and was a sheep sent to the lost sheep, had that life once. Yes he was a sheep as the other 12. Jesus sent them to the LOST sheep implying that they were saved sheep. If they , or Judas was not saved then Jesus would be giving power to a child of the devil to cast out devils, and that cannot be so. Jesus also would be sending a blind man to help other blind men and that would go against his teaching. Jesus also spoke of the one lost sheep that went astray, implying that the other sheep were found and with him. In this case according to jesus discussions about sheep, to tell the apostles ( Judas included ) to go to the LOST sheep, would imply in the strongest terms that they are found sheep. jesus also specifically said i send you as sheep among wolves. If Judas was a wolf then jesus could not have said that. he would have been sending some as sheep and Judas as a wolf among wolves. This would confound the meaning and text of jesus and be absurd.

And yes when jesus says he sends them as sheep among wolves, this implies that none of them are wolves and we know that no man is literally a sheep. But the meaning is clear to the unbiased reader. if you send the apostles as sheep to the LOST sheep, then obviously they are found sheep, all 12 of them.

Remember Jesus ordained the 12 and sent them forth to preach. Judas was also ordained and sent to preach. But how can they preach except they be sent. No man can preach unless God is with him and in him.

No, sorry. John 6:64 states quite clearly that Judas did not believe. There is no time that he ever did. Unless you think this verse refers to a different apostle?

wrong, you are adding your own interpretation. It says

"64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

Here we see that there is a distinction from those who believe not and Judas who should (future tense) betray him. To betray Jesus you had to once have the trust of him and Judas once had that trust and was his familiar friend. This text does not say that Judas NEVER believed. It it written near the end of jesus ministry and by that time Judas was about to betray him. It says nothing of the beginning of Judas ministry to which he was ordained and called and sent and had obtained part of the true ministry and was a sheep of Jesus and had the Spirit of the father speaking in him being of Jesus household. He was also written in the book with the righteous once. Showing he was saved.

And Jesus knowing all men and knowing the end from the beginning does not make a persons betray to mean that they always betrayed. God knew from the beginning that Lucifer would sin and fall, But that does not mean that Lucifer was not once a perfect being in all his ways once and walked with God. Your very reasoning is flawed and you add to the text above that which is written with your own interpretation that the text does not warrant.

Judas simply followed Jesus's instructions. Yes, he, along with the other apostles, performed miracles via the holy spirit, just as the sons of the Pharisees did, as I have already shown in my previous post.

No no man can do a miracle in Gods name unless they are saved. Jesus said all 12 apostles were HIS . You seem to avoid the main word i bring out. They were HIS not the devils. You seem to be saying that 11 were HIS and not Judas. But the text clearly says all 12 were his. You have the dilema not me.

Jesus gave all 12 that he ordained and sent out to preach, power to cast out devils. Show any scripture where jesus gives power to cast out devils to a devil?

What you seem to be saying is that jesus didn't really know who Judas was, or even though he called HIS 12 to him, Jesus wasn't really doing that? or Jesus gave power to cast out devils to a devil???? This would contradict jesus own words that satan cannot cast out satan.

Your assumption that Judas would have had to have kept the Father's word is not substantiated by Scripture. One does not have to have the holy spirit to use the power in the name of Jesus to perform acts in the holy spirit. Mark 9:38-40.

You are wrong again here. Judas was one of jesus apostles ordained and sent to do his will. Jesus said no man can do his will unless he is in them and they in him. Without Jesus we can do nothing John 15. The apostles also could do nothing without Jesus being in them. This is clear in John 15. So for any man to do anything in jesus name ( or his character and power and authority) they have to be in the vine as branches. Your entire argument fails at John 15. Judas or any believer could do nothing outside of being in Christ and he in them.

"4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." ( John 15:4,5)

This would include all the 12 apostles and any man who cast out devils as we see even from the text you misuse and wrongly attribute for your case. We read,

"38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part."

Obviously these men were believers in Jesus and in him NAME ( or life character, power and authority) and saved. They simply did not follow with them at that time and the apostles wrongly understood them, as you do also. They were in Christ and he in them, for without Jesus no man can do anything. They were not following some form of words without the reality of Christ. We see some men trying to do this and cast out devils in the name of jesus whom paul preached. but the devils did not know them and they had no power. No man can cast out a devil unless they are in Christ. Your teaching here is absurd and very dangerous and confounds the truth.

In fact, none of the apostles formally received the holy spirit until Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22, for which Judas was not present and was possibly already dead.

Jesus gave all 12 POWER to cast out devils in Matthew 10. I know this shatters some of your erroneous views and many other who may teach such things, but let the truth stand and false doctrine fall. If they had POWER from jesus why argue against it.

Since the holy spirit is a sign of salvation (Ephesians 1:13), this also shows that Judas was never saved.

You misunderstand this verse again, it says

"13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Here we see that the word of truth, is how they are saved and born again. Then they were given the Holy Spirit in jesus name. This is the order. The saints that were in the upper room waiting for the Holy Ghost baptism, were all saved already by the word of truth and they were born again before the Holy Ghost baptism came. This Baptism was power for witnessing and the Holy Ghost would testify of Jesus etc. But we see men saved before the Holy Ghost baptism as in Acts 8.

This is human supposition -- and incorrect supposition at that. John 6:64 clearly states that Judas did not believe, and yet Jesus did in fact send him out with the other apostles.

where does it say that Judas did not believe, it also mentions his betraying jesus. and the word betray connects to Judas, but you are adding words to the text. We see in John 6:66, that many of the disciples went away and walked no more with jesus. But Judas didn't walk away then. It also doesn't say that Judas never believed. Matthew 10 and other places show that he did.

I can see that an important part of this whole talk is to show that OT saints were actually SAINTS, and saved and born again. This is a very important part of this discussion. To not understand the OT salvation and new birth causes you and some others to confound the text and speak lots of errors.

When Jesus, speaking to Nicodemus about the new birth talked about being born again in John 3. Jesus marvelled that he did not understand these things being a master in Israel. Jesus said he spoke of that which he had seen.

The verses I quoted show that the sons of the Pharisees were driving out demons by the holy spirit (we don't know if they used Jesus's name), and they were not saved. We may know they were not saved because they had not received the holy spirit -- because no one had yet received the holy spirit; Jesus had not yet returned to his father.

This is one of your most absurd ideas you present. In a false attempt to run from Jesus calling 12 apostles and giving them power to cast out devils, you try to say that unsaved men who are not in Christ can do anything and cast out devils. i showed you above that this is not the case, even from the verses you tried to give.

Jesus said without him we can do nothing. The men who cast out devils did so in jesus name. that expression in the name of Jesus or in jesus name, means they were in salvation, to be in him is in the name, or character power life and attributes of christ. While jesus was on the earth he kept men in the fathers name. the name of the Lord is a high tower and the righteous run into it and are safe.

and men were saved before they received the Holy Spirit baptism. as scripture can easily show. Your problem seems to be in your misunderstanding of the Holy Ghost baptism , and you have no distinctions between the Spirit of the father and the Spirit of the Son and the Holy Spirit.


And to reiterate, my point is that Judas did not have that peace, because he never believed in Jesus.[/QUOTE]

Says you, but contrary to matthew 10, where Judas and the 11 belonged to jesus as he called HIS twelve ( not 11 and one devil) to m him. What do you think it means to be HIS apostles? If a person belongs to jesus do you try to say they do not belong to him and are not his sheep and saved. if so this is contrary to the clear words of scripture and jesus himself.

Jesus also said , without him we can do nothing, and only when he is in us and we in him can we do anything. The same goes for the 11 apostles. He gave them power. it came from him to them. They did not have any power of themselves.


Not my assumption at all. Can you supply verses that show that the apostles were called upon to testify before governors and kings at this time? We both know that there are none. But they certainly did in the future, and Judas was no longer among them.[/QUOTE]

Again based upon your bias and assumption. Jesus said it to them, so it may have happened. he also told them to cast out devils and preach etc, and we know that they did this and jesus said in another place when they came back rejoicing that not to be rejoicing that the devils are subject to them, but that their names are written in the lambs book of life. So if one part applied to them than all of it did. But as i said before this aspect of sent ministry of jesus applies through the ages to many of the saints in many particulars. We see the apostles did similar things also during their whole life. So it started there and extends to all time. The addition would be to go into all the world and preach the gospel, not just to the lost sheep of Israel. The fact that he defines their ministry to the lost sheep of Israel, shows that it is not specifically after the resurrection. because after he died and rose again they were to go to all the world and preach. jesus told his apostles not to go the way of the gentiles or Samaria. So your assumption that this is only after the resurrection in the future is false.

If all men indeed had a choice, as you say, then Paul would not have said via the holy spirit that the chosen were predestined.[/QUOTE]

again this is your made up stuff, we read

"
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

and

"24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:" ( Hebrews 11;24-26)

"...choose you this day whom ye will serve;" ( Joshua 24:15)

You are going to have to decide whether a man's salvation depends on man or on God. If it were the former, it would be by works, and man would thus have grounds to boast. But if it is the latter, then it is by grace. Ephesians 2:8-9.

No and this is another doctrine you have messed up. To understand these things you need to understand the great mystery of the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world, and the seed sown in the hearts of all.

Until you are ready to let God be God, you cannot know him as you ought

another assumption and strange statement. God is God no matter what we let or not let. I know God inwardly and have the anointing to teach all things. Yes all believers need to wait on the Lord as the head and edify one another . But this is all in the new man not the old man.

I know of no verse that either states or implies that the spirit of the Father ever spoke to him.

"10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power...2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are ...and Judas Iscariot...16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:...17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you [still speaking to the 12] up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;... take no thought how or what ye [still talking to the apostle in context] shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye [still talking to the 12 apostles Judas included, in context] that speak, but the Spirit of your [still talking to the 12 Judas included in context] Father which speaketh in you.


lots for you to consider, and I pray that you will see that Judas was once saved and lost it and that this shatters the eternal security view taught by many. I have a great deal more I can show about believers losing their salvation and the dangers of it from scripture. But Judas is a interesting case

 

[LoveofTruth]

I wanted to post this again, it is more clarity

Daryl Gleason said,

"Your assumption that Judas would have had to have kept the Father's word is not substantiated by Scripture. One does not have to have the holy spirit to use the power in the name of Jesus to perform acts in the holy spirit. Mark 9:38-40."

My response,

You are wrong again here. Judas was one of Jesus apostles, and it is said Jesus called HIS 12 (Judas included as one of HIS) and he ordained all 12 and sent them to preach and to do his will. Jesus said no man can do his will unless he is in them and they in him John 15:1-5. Without Jesus we can do nothing John 15:5. The apostles also could do nothing without Jesus being in them. This is clear in John 15.

So for any man to do anything in jesus name ( or his character and power and authority) they have to be in the vine as branches. For any man to cast out devils, heal the sick, preach to others etc, they have to be in and by Jesus for without Jesus we can do NOTHING. Your entire argument fails at John 15. Judas or any believer could do nothing outside of being in Christ and he in them.

"4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." ( John 15:4,5)

This would include all the 12 apostles doing anything as sent ones as well. Or any man who cast out devils as we see even from the text you misuse and wrongly attribute for your case. We read,

"38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part."

Obviously, these men were believers in Jesus and in his NAME (or in the life, character, power and authority of him) and saved. They simply did not follow with them at that time and the apostles wrongly understood them, as you do also. They were in Christ and he in them, for without Jesus no man can do anything. They were not following some form of words without the reality of Christ. We see some men trying to do this and cast out devils in the name of Jesus whom paul preached in Acts but the devils did not know them and they had no power. No man can cast out a devil unless they are in Christ. Your teaching here is absurd and very dangerous and confounds the truth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

He is telling them what to do in the future, after His death.

So when did Jesus have His disciples go out for lost sheep before His death? That was your implication, that Judas was sent out for lost sheep along with the other disciples. I would like scripture to show that.

No, after Jesus death and resurrection they were to go to all the world with the Gospel and include the gentiles. Jesus spoke of not going to the gentile before his death or the samaritans. Again you must reconsider Matthew 10. While it is somewhat true of the commission to the sent ones that similar things will happen all through history. There was specific things the apostle did as they were sent to the surrounding towns.

It clearly rebukes the once saved always saved false doctrine and shatters it. But because this is so many get frustrated and try all sorts of strained and twisted interpretations grasping at straws as they fall down the mud pit they have made desperately hoping to twist the text somehow to avoid the clear correction to there doctrine. This is sad and frustrating when they do this

 

[Marvin Knox]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

Lots of stuff to sort through with all of your posts in this thread.

But the bottom line for me is whether or not we are going to believe God when He said that whoever believes on His Son has passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

Judas came into condemnation. Therefore Judas never passed from death to life no matter how much discipleship training he had along the way.

That's not theological rocket surgery. In fact it's really basic stuff.

I believe what Jesus said. You obviously do not.

Not only that - but you seem to have made it a major goal of yours to display your lack of faith in what the Lord told us- here in this thread.

Your theology concerning salvation is all over the map and appears not to have been developed in any kind of sound systematic way.

It seems to me that you are either new to the faith or perhaps just have a personal axe to grind regarding the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer or salvation by grace in general.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Lots of stuff to sort through with all of your posts in this thread.

But the bottom line for me is whether or not we are going to believe God when He said that whoever believes on His Son has passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

Judas came into condemnation. Therefore Judas never passed from death to life no matter how much discipleship training he had along the way.

That's not theological rocket surgery. In fact it's really basic stuff.

I believe what Jesus said. You obviously do not.

Not only that - but you seem to have made it a major goal of yours to display your lack of faith in what the Lord told us- here in this thread.

Your theology concerning salvation is all over the map and appears not to have been developed in any kind of sound systematic way.

It seems to me that you are either new to the faith or perhaps just have a personal axe to grind regarding the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer or salvation by grace in general.

I fully believe what Jesus said Jesus also said that those who are in him if they abide not are cast forth as a branch and withered and cast into the fire Johh 15

Obviously from Matthew 10 Judas once was an apostle a sent one and HIS sheep sent to the lost sheep. So how we understand to have life and to pass from death to life is the issue. In Christ is eternal life, because Jesus himself is eternal life 1 John 1:1,2. But if a man has for example hates his brother he is a murderer and then he no longer has eternal life abiding ( remaining) in him. This shows that eternal life is only in the seed or word which is Christ in us. If a man turns from God and departs from God through an evil heart of unbelief having once been a believer (Hebrews 3;12) which is possible according to scripture. Then they are no longer in the life.

Adam and Eve had life and when they sinned they died, ( spiritually and eventually physically) . This shows that you can be in life and lose it spiritually.

Paul said ( referring to when he was a young child) that he was alive once without the law, but the commandment came sin revived ( his sin nature0 and he died ( obviously he didn't die physically but spiritually ) Romans 7:9. This shows that to be in life is conditional upon continual faith and abiding. This is very clear in scripture. Too many verses to site here but i can show many of them.

all believers are saved by grace through faith. But this salvation is by this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power is of God and not of us. This treasure in earthen vessels is the free gift that came upon all men through the work of Christ in time on the cross. This free gift is the seed sown in the hearts and this is the word of God, the true Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world. This is the great mystery that has been hid from ages ( even though it was there) and this is Christ in you the hope of glory. This hope is Christ in you. We read of OT saints who had this hope, we read that faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. All OT saints had this hope through faith, and they had the substance of Christ in them, that is the hope.

Paul said there is no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit Romans 8:1 KJV), so a person can fall into condemnation if they cast off their first faith having damnation or if they get caught in pride etc or unbelief and walk after the flesh.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Lots of stuff to sort through with all of your posts in this thread.

But the bottom line for me is whether or not we are going to believe God when He said that whoever believes on His Son has passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation.

Judas came into condemnation. Therefore Judas never passed from death to life no matter how much discipleship training he had along the way.

That's not theological rocket surgery. In fact it's really basic stuff.

I believe what Jesus said. You obviously do not.

Not only that - but you seem to have made it a major goal of yours to display your lack of faith in what the Lord told us- here in this thread.

Your theology concerning salvation is all over the map and appears not to have been developed in any kind of sound systematic way.

It seems to me that you are either new to the faith or perhaps just have a personal axe to grind regarding the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer or salvation by grace in general.

Yes, I am strongly against the once saved always saved doctrine. But it is not a axe to grind. The axe is already laid to the root of this error. All infants are saved at one day old do you agree? They are saved by the grace of Christ and if they die at one day old go to God, do you agree? if this is so then all people are saved at one time as infants and when they have sin revive and died spiritually then they need to be born again. They are condemned when they hate the light John 3 and not before that. They are condemned because their deeds are evil and they hate the light.

So infant salvation defeats calvinism and the many points of the false TULIP and eternal security as well


it is really basic actually.

Consider what i say before you quickly attack it and try to escape the clear consequence of this understanding about infants. many in the calvinistic camp or eternal security camp have not really consider the infant child issue.

 

[aiki]

No wrong again, Peter says

"23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)

Clearly the context is that the incorruptible seed is the word of God. The word "word" here is the logos same word used for Word in John 1;1. You need to go back to the start again and let the anointing which is the word of God 1 John 2, teach you all things.

You haven't said here anything you haven't already said. You're simply repeating yourself. And you haven't shown why I'm wrong in what I've put forward as the correct reading of the verse. You've simply asserted it's wrong because it differs from your reading. But that, in and of itself, does not make my reading wrong.

So what if the term for "word" (logos) is the same term used in John 1:1? Why wouldn't it be? Logos is the Greek word for "word." But like the word "seed," "logos" has different referents. In one instance it may refer to Christ, and in another, the Bible. Insisting that every time "logos" is used it must refer to Christ is to make the same fundamental mistake you've been making with the word "seed."

Your comment about requiring an "anointing" is Pentecostal silliness and doesn't deserve any more response than to say so. You, though, could use some training in proper hermeneutics.

This word is spirit as Jesus said he was not only speaking of the written scriptures.

But "word" in the New Testament refers to many different things. You must establish from context which usage you're dealing with. It is foolish to assume "word" always refers to Christ. It just simply doesn't. Do you not have access to a Bible dictionary?

Do you even know what you mean when you say, "This word is spirit"? Are you talking about the spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit? Do you mean the "word" is the spiritual truth of Scripture? Do you mean the "word" is a spirit unto itself? If when you write, "The word is spirit," you really mean "The word is the Spirit of Christ," why don't you simply say so? It would save your readers some confusion about your meaning.

The word (logos) is how we are born again. Jesus Christ is the Word (Logos) of God and his word is what brings life.

So, you're saying Jesus is the Word and he brings life? Okay. I've already stated this in past posts. If this is what you mean by "word," then you ought to make sure you capitalize the "W" in "Word" to make this clear. When you use a small "w," it indicates you're talking about the Bible. In the quotation above, you go back and forth between small "w" word and big "W" Word but seem in both cases to mean the same thing. This is confusing and is obscuring your meaning.

His word is sown in the heart by the father.

Do you mean, in this instance, that Jesus is "sown in the heart by the Father" or that the Gospel is sown? In the parable of The Sower, it is not Jesus that is sown but the Gospel. Is this what you're referring to?

• “In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word [logos] was with God, and the Word [logos] was God” (John 1:1).

• “The seed is the word [logos] of God” (Luke 8:11).

• “Holding forth the word [logos] of life” (Philippians 2:16).

• “For the word [logos] of God is quick, and powerful” (Hebrews 4:12).

• “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word [logos] of God, which liveth and abideth forever” (I Peter 1:23).

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier in this post. You're not making appropriate distinctions in meaning when it comes to "word." John 1:1 is clearly talking about Christ but Luke 8:11 is talking about the spoken word, most likely the Gospel. Philippians 2:16 is also a reference, not to Christ, but to the Gospel which all believers are to hold forth and hold fast. Hebrews 4:12, though, is, as I have already explained in another post, speaking of Christ. In spite of the fact that the references you've cited are not all speaking of the same thing, you seem to treat them as though they are. This careless handling of Scripture is always going to lead you into falsehood.

What followed in the remainder of your post was irrelevant to your assertion that Judas was saved and lost. I skimmed what you wrote but stopped when I read this:

All three are one being God but there is distinctions and these three persons are one being God. These three are one. if you miss this you overlap the Spirit with the word which is spirit etc.

God is three distinct Persons sharing a common fundamental nature. God is not one God assuming three different forms. That is the heresy of Sabellianism or modalism. I understand that the Oneness doctrine of God is held by some Pentecostals, so I am not surprised to read your comments above. But, regardless, they constitute a long-refuted false teaching about the nature of God.

What we see here is that the Father sowed Christ the word as a seed in the hearts of men. Yes this is a mystery and many miss it when they only see the word as scripture.

It is a mystery for you largely, I suspect, because it arises from a mishandling of Scripture.

here we see clearly (before the cross and before the Holy Ghost was given), that the seed is the word of God sown in the hearts of all men. This word is how they are saved when they believe it vs 12.

No. This is entirely an assumption you're making here. There is no clear, definite grounds in Scripture for this claim. It seems much more likely that Jesus was speaking of his own proclamation of the coming kingdom of God and the Gospel than of the Holy Spirit or of himself "sown in the hearts of men by the Father."

If you're correct, then you have some difficult questions to answer from the parable of the Sower in Luke 8:

1.) How does the devil have power over Christ in the hearts of men such that he can snatch Christ out of their hearts and prevent them from being saved? (See verse 12)
2.) How can people be saved without there first being an atonement for sin? Christ is the Saviour who saves because of his atoning work on the cross.
3.) Why is Christ so easily displaced by the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the pleasures and temptations of life? Why does Christ hold so weakly onto the hearts of those in whom God has sown him? How does this weak grip Christ seems to have on the hearts of those who hear him mesh with what we read in the following passage?:

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul is speaking of believers here, people in whom the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Christ, has come to dwell. Why is Christ so immoveable in Paul's description but so easily cast out in Christ's own parable about the Sower? Could it be that the "word" in the parable is not actually Christ but rather, as I said, the preaching of the kingdom of God and the Gospel? Such a reading would avoid entirely the scriptural conflict I have pointed out above that your view generates.

Consider here that we are born again by the word of God as i have been saying all along. This word is engrafted inwardly.

We are born again by faith in Christ, the Word of God, not the word of God which refers to Scripture.

James 1:21-24
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

In context, James is very clearly speaking, not of Christ the Word, but of the word which is heard, that is, the word that is the Gospel and the spiritual doctrines and principles taught by the apostles. James is urging his readers to act upon what they have heard of these things and not simply observe them like a man who observes himself in a mirror and then goes away and soon forgets what he has heard. James goes on to make even more clear what he means by the "word" that is heard:

James 1:25
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as the "perfect law of liberty." As God he is the Source of this law, but he is not the law itself any more than a baker is the bread he bakes. The "perfect law of liberty" is a description of the Gospel and the doctrines and principles of the New Covenant revealed in Scripture.

You are in error as you speak and confound the various aspects of Gods work and the Spiritual understanding.

You are no where close to showing this to be so. In fact, the more you write, the more you reveal the extent of your own erroneous thinking.

You need to have spiritual revelation, and start at the beginning. What you know you are basing on your natural learning it seems.

I'm afraid you are so entangled in your misapprehensions about Scripture that you would not recognize sound doctrine if it bit you on the nose!

that mystery is Christ in you the hope of glory, which all the saints of all time have known inwardly.

"
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

What do you mean by the saints who have known inwardly the mystery? Do you mean they understood the mystery? Because if that's what you mean, then the mystery isn't a mystery, is it? And if "all the saints of all time" have known - or understood - this mystery then how can Paul say to the Colossians that the mystery was hid from ages and generations? There were Old Testament saints who, if you are correct, knew the mystery, so Paul is wrong! Or you are. That is, of course, only if you meant "know" in the sense of "understanding." You didn't, did you?

You have a very deep and terribly convoluted mess that you've made of Scripture. Some of what you are thinking is fine but much of it is not. And where you go wrong, you go quite wrong and confuse the things you've got right. I realize you think you've really done your homework, connecting up all the scriptural dots as you have. But the fact is you've mixed some error in with the truth and its souring everything. I know also that you are so invested in your point of view that no one but God is going to be able to correct it, but in the faint hope you can actually hear a voice other than your own in this matter, I would urge you to consider the things I've written to you rather than just knee-jerk wall-o-texting.

Selah.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do you mean, in this instance, that Jesus is "sown in the heart by the Father" or that the Gospel is sown? In the parable of The Sower, it is not Jesus that is sown but the Gospel. Is this what you're referring to?

The Father sows the seed , Christ, the word, the true Light in every heart, but not all are in union with that seed. Notice here the seed , is the word of God sown in the heart, this is not speaking of scripture. Although scripture conveys the words of truth that witness to the inner witness of the word.

God is three distinct Persons sharing a common fundamental nature. God is not one God assuming three different forms. That is the heresy of Sabellianism or modalism. I understand that the Oneness doctrine of God is held by some Pentecostals, so I am not surprised to read your comments above. But, regardless, they constitute a long-refuted false teaching about the nature of God.

Wrong I believe strongly in the Trinity doctrine, and i am strongly against Modalism and Oneness theology. You misunderstood me. One being God in three, these three are one 1 John 5:7 and Isaiah 48:12-17. The most powerful Trinity verses in scripture. When i say three persons make up the one God. i am not teaching three Gods agreeing or that they are different modes. But The Son speaks to the father and the Holy Ghost speaks etc. Each is personal. I hold the traditional view of the Trinity.

1.) How does the devil have power over Christ in the hearts of men such that he can snatch Christ out of their hearts and prevent them from being saved? (See verse 12)

2 Cor 4 about the devil blinding the minds of them that believe not, is part of that answer.

2.) How can people be saved without there first being an atonement for sin? Christ is the Saviour who saves because of his atoning work on the cross.

Christ accomplished the work for those of the past who looked for Gods righteousness to save them. jesus said blessed are those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled. This righteousness is revealed in the gospel, being witness by the law and the prophets.

We are born again by faith in Christ, the Word of God, not the word of God which refers to Scripture.

This is not accurate . The word of God does not always refer to scripture. it can be the spoken word and that word can speak in the heart from God. This word is inward as well, even before men had scripture. This word is the seed sown in the hearts of all men from Adam until today. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight , referring to the word of god that is quick and powerful.

When the word of God came unto the prophets and they spoke it forth then, men wrote it down. the word of God was in them, as the spirit of Christ in them, and this word was nigh them as in all. They heard that word and spoke it. This is the treasure in earthen vessels.

Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as the "perfect law of liberty." As God he is the Source of this law, but he is not the law itself any more than a baker is the bread he bakes. The "perfect law of liberty" is a description of the Gospel and the doctrines and principles of the New Covenant revealed in Scripture.

You show that you have much to learn. these spiritual things we are talking about are not seen but in the spirit, Consider

"...in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." ( Romans 8:1-4 KJV)

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the response to your error. Jesus is the way the truth and the life and the truth will make you free. or in liberty.

I'm afraid you are so entangled in your misapprehensions about Scripture that you would not recognize sound doctrine if it bit you on the nose!

You are very far from spiritual understanding in many things and confound yourself not even understanding the seed as the word of God sown in the heart. This is all through the bible even connected to the Old Testament new birth.

What do you mean by the saints who have known inwardly the mystery? Do you mean they understood the mystery? Because if that's what you mean, then the mystery isn't a mystery, is it? And if "all the saints of all time" have known - or understood - this mystery then how can Paul say to the Colossians that the mystery was hid from ages and generations? There were Old Testament saints who, if you are correct, knew the mystery, so Paul is wrong! Or you are. That is, of course, only if you meant "know" in the sense of "understanding." You didn't, did you?

They had the inner reality of Christ in them, but the understanding of this fully was veiled and shadowed in types etc. Paul is clear here. I believe you have not really considered this section and are speaking too quickly. We are talking about the mystery of Christ in you. This is a deep mystery and runs all through the bible and to understand this puts what i say in true light.

You have a very deep and terribly convoluted mess that you've made of Scripture.

No you are not seeing the truth in these areas and so all you can hear is words like seed, word, Christ, the Light and they do not connect to you. You miss the inward reality and life of these things.

Consider what jesus mean when he said men must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life IN THEM.

Or what Jesus means when he says that men should believe in the light to be children of light, and if the light that is IN THEM, be darkness how great is that darkness.

God desires truth in the inward parts and in the hidden part he will make men to know wisdom. These are what Paul refers to as the "secrets of men" Romans 2. Where the work of the law is written in their hearts, their cons hence also bearing witness. This is to those who do not have the scriptures and God deals with them the natural way he does with all me, inwardly, by the Light and this light is His Son. This was what Paul meant when he said that God called him from a child to reveal His Son in him. He did not say "to put his Son in me", but to reveal His Son in him.

Consider these verses of the inward life and word and seed in men, where no scriptures were ( and consider Abraham who had no scriptures and who is the example of faith.

"14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." ( Romans 2:14-16 KJV)

"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being." ( Acts 17:26-28 KJV)

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." ( Romans 1:18,19 KJV)

I believe you are very far from the truth in your understanding, a whole inner world of the kingdom and Gods inner working in all men is hid from you it seems. You would make the word "word" with a small "w", mean only the scriptures, which is not the case as we see.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Your comment about requiring an "anointing" is Pentecostal silliness and doesn't deserve any more response than to say so. You, though, could use some training in proper hermeneutics.

No you are the one to be rebuked, you call the anointing silliness. God forbid. i simply quote scripture and you attack it. Maybe thats why you have such error because you are not in the anointing to teach you all things

consider and repent here

'27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."* 1 John 2:27 KJV)

 

[Marvin Knox]

All infants are saved at one day old do you agree? They are saved by the grace of Christ and if they die at one day old go to God, do you agree? i

The scriptures are not completely clear on the subject. But I suppose that most would say yes.

It may be that they are lost at that time but saved by grace before or as they die. We simply don’t know for sure.

Either way – David seemed pretty sure that his departed child was in Heaven or at least would be at some time.

..... if this is so then all people are saved at one time as infants and when they have sin revive and died spiritually then they need to be born again.

Again we just don’t know if they are lost at first and born again by grace before or as they die as infants. We simply don’t know for sure.

You are making an assumption with too little information supplied by God for us to make that assumption authoritatively.

They are condemned when they hate the light John 3 and not before that. They are condemned because their deeds are evil and they hate the light.

Yes that may be true - if not at birth or even conception according to their inherent sin nature. They were, after all, conceived in sin – whatever all that means.

You shouldn’t go beyond what is written. There are at least those couple of scenarios that may be the case from God’s perspective.

So infant salvation defeats calvinism and the many points of the false TULIP and eternal security as well

Not necessarily.

But I see now that your agenda seems to be the defeat of Calvinism and not just refuting once saved always saved.

it is really basic actually.

Basic and very common “assumptions” that is - about what we do not have enough information to be sure about.

Consider what i say before you quickly attack it and try to escape the clear consequence of this understanding about infants.

Clear consequences if your “assumptions” are correct.

many in the calvinistic camp or eternal security camp have not really consider the infant child issue.

Probably many have not.

They have not considered other possibilities that would refute “limited atonement” as often taught by Calvinists as well.

But that’s a different subject I suppose.

 

[LoveofTruth]

When you use a small "w," it indicates you're talking about the Bible.

This just shows your ignorance, consider in Deuteronomy 30. This word, was in their hearts even before the law and it was not something new, or hidden as we read. The word is inward, and connected to the voice of God speaking in the heart and if their heart hears, then they can have life

"11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it....17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear,"(Deut. 30:11-17 KJV)

Paul quotes this section in parts revealing that the divine Preacher has preached already in the hearts of all men as we see. But i suspect you won't see this either. But God willing you may. Paul reveals that the word in Deut. 30 the "it" referred to is actually Christ.

"6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" (Romans 10:6-8)

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and Christ in you is the hope. Therefore the word of faith is Christ in you also.

Paul is saying that in Deuteronomy Christ is the hidden meaning there lets see how it might sound with this interpretation from Paul in place

"11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is Christ far off.12 Christ is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring Christ unto us, that we may hear Christ, and do Christ?13 Neither is Christ beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring Christ unto us, that we may hear Christ, and do Christ?14 But the word [Christ] is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do Christ....17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear,"(Deut. 30:11-17 KJV)

This is how Paul interprets that section in Romans, and he reveals a great mystery that was hid.

"Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)"

 

[LoveofTruth]

The scriptures are not completely clear on the subject. But I suppose that most would say yes.

It may be that they are lost at that time but saved by grace before or as they die. We simply don’t know for sure.

Either way – David seemed pretty sure that his departed child was in Heaven or at least would be at some time.

Again we just don’t know if they are lost at first and born again by grace before or as they die as infants. We simply don’t know for sure.

You are making an assumption with too little information supplied by God for us to make that assumption authoritatively.

Yes that may be true - if not at birth or even conception according to their inherent sin nature. They were, after all, conceived in sin – whatever all that means.

You shouldn’t go beyond what is written. There are at least those couple of scenarios that may be the case from God’s perspective.

Not necessarily.

But I see now that your agenda seems to be the defeat of Calvinism and not just refuting once saved always saved.

Basic and very common “assumptions” that is - about what we do not have enough information to be sure about.

Clear consequences if your “assumptions” are correct.

Probably many have not.

They have not considered other possibilities that would refute “limited atonement” as often taught by Calvinists as well.

But that’s a different subject I suppose.

Hello again, there are many things I can say about infant salvation from scripture. I just haven't posted them yet. The bible has lots to say about this. Because some haven't seen it or understand this or even considered these things does not mean the bible is silent on this and has little to say. There all sorts of scriptures about this.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The scriptures are not completely clear on the subject.

Just a suggestion my friend, when you say the scriptures are NOT clear on this, ( or any topic) maybe you should add, they are not clear to you. They are clear to me about this, and I have been convinced by them in regards to this topic of infants.

 

[Radrook]

Was this part of God's plan. Jesus needed to save us all from our sins. So Judas did what he did. He was supposed to do it. Otherwise people would sleep late on Sundays, instead of going to Church and giving thanks.

It is a question of motive. Some would have Judas as a hero cooperating with what Jesus wanted him to do. However, the Bible indicates that his motives were vile.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I fully believe what Jesus said Jesus also said that those who are in him if they abide not are cast forth as a branch and withered and cast into the fire Johh 15

Obviously from Matthew 10 Judas once was an apostle a sent one and HIS sheep sent to the lost sheep. So how we understand to have life and to pass from death to life is the issue. In Christ is eternal life, because Jesus himself is eternal life 1 John 1:1,2. But if a man has for example hates his brother he is a murderer and then he no longer has eternal life abiding ( remaining) in him. This shows that eternal life is only in the seed or word which is Christ in us. If a man turns from God and departs from God through an evil heart of unbelief having once been a believer (Hebrews 3;12) which is possible according to scripture. Then they are no longer in the life.

Adam and Eve had life and when they sinned they died, ( spiritually and eventually physically) . This shows that you can be in life and lose it spiritually.

Paul said ( referring to when he was a young child) that he was alive once without the law, but the commandment came sin revived ( his sin nature0 and he died ( obviously he didn't die physically but spiritually ) Romans 7:9. This shows that to be in life is conditional upon continual faith and abiding. This is very clear in scripture. Too many verses to site here but i can show many of them.

all believers are saved by grace through faith. But this salvation is by this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power is of God and not of us. This treasure in earthen vessels is the free gift that came upon all men through the work of Christ in time on the cross. This free gift is the seed sown in the hearts and this is the word of God, the true Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world. This is the great mystery that has been hid from ages ( even though it was there) and this is Christ in you the hope of glory. This hope is Christ in you. We read of OT saints who had this hope, we read that faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. All OT saints had this hope through faith, and they had the substance of Christ in them, that is the hope.

Paul said there is no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit Romans 8:1 KJV), so a person can fall into condemnation if they cast off their first faith having damnation or if they get caught in pride etc or unbelief and walk after the flesh.

Well said brother. I was just at a Wednesday night service last night (Checking out a new church to find believers who want to have house fellowship who are like minded in the LORD). The pastor was talking in the book of Romans; And when he spoke, I knew he had to be Once Saved Always Saved. I asked him after the service if he believed it and he essentially admitted that he did (using different words). For he said that you can never lose salvation but that you can choose not to follow Christ anymore. But he also said there are false believers. By this I gather that he thinks that those who choosed to stop in following Christ never were saved to begin with. I presented many problem passages for him and I knew how to defend the faith. I said, "what about Judas"? And he basically didn't want to get into discussing that.

He said we cannot know who is saved or not saved. I said I disagreed. I wanted to tell him about 1 John 2:3-6. But there wasn't time. He mentioned 1 Corinthians 3 and one's works being burned up and yet being saved. I said, are these evil and sinful works? Does one build on the foundation of Christ those things that are sinful? Is that what the context is talking about? He also mentioned 2 Timothy 2:13. A verse that is rarely brought up in the debate of Once Saved Always Saved because it is so easily refuted. At the moment, I couldn't quote the entire passage. But I looked it up last night and I remembered what I said to others before on it. Verse 12 refutes the OSAS Proponent's false view. If we deny Him, He will deny us. So verse 13 is talking about a concept that is similar. Verse 13 is saying that if we are unfaithful, God is still faithful to His righteous ways and His own Word (And He is not faithful to us - if we are in unbelief). For in Hebrews 11, it says without faith, it is impossible to please GOD.

I also asked, "Does not God have to agree with a person's evil in order to save them despite their doing evil?" He said, "no." To me, that doesn't make any sense. How can God disconnect Himself from one of His people in doing evil? It doesn't make any sense!

In any event, we both smiled and we hugged, and I said, "God bless you."
And me and my wife left.
I then was explaining to my wife in the car all the passages that refute this wrong way of thinking on the Scriptures.
Saying to others (using different words) that they do not need to worry about sin because we have a belief on Jesus now and are saved for all time is wrong because it gives most people the wrong message that they can live however they like with the thinking they are saved. In fact, many who used to be OSAS proponents (and are no longer that way) will say this very thing. They used to treat sin as not that big of deal (When the Bible says it is a big deal).

The pastor also wanted to make a point that it is a futile effort that we can be aware of all our sins. I said there are sins that lead unto the second death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Revelation 21:8 are sins that lead to the second death and 1 Peter 3:21 would be an example of a sin that does not lead unto the second death. He honestly did not know what to say to that one.

In any event, I will be praying for him. He is a Jewish pastor (Messianic Jew) and he is a really nice and down to Earth person who is funny and kind. So I will be praying for him. I may even take him up at his offer for coffee somewhere and talk more with him. But please pray for him, my brother. I will be doing the same (So that he might see).

Anyways, thank you so much for this thread.
May God truly bless your life and your efforts.

...

 

[ToBeLoved]

2 Cor 4 about the devil blinding the minds of them that believe not, is part of that answer.

All of us were once in this boat. Our sin binds our own minds as much as anything.

Since we have all or most of us have come to Christ we see that Satan does not have that much power over the mind that a heart seeking Christ cannot overcome.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Was this part of God's plan. Jesus needed to save us all from our sins. So Judas did what he did. He was supposed to do it. Otherwise people would sleep late on Sundays, instead of going to Church and giving thanks.

No Judas betrayed Jesus. To Betray means to have the trust oce and go against that trust. Judas was jesus win familiar friend in whom he once trusted then lifted up his heel against him.

Jesus said it was better for him that he was never born.

So any who try to imply he was some kind of hero doing what was forced him to do in some erroneous destination understanding are wrong.

Yes God knows all things and sees all things. But like Lucifer who was created perfect in all his was and walked with God and then who fell and is headed to the lake of fire one day. God still walked with him at the time and Lucifer has no truth in him as jesus said in John. Also God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels who fell. God didn't make it before they fell as far as we know. This shows that it wasn't the intention that they fall.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Father sows the seed , Christ, the word, the true Light in every heart, but not all are in union with that seed. Notice here the seed , is the word of God sown in the heart, this is not speaking of scripture. Although scripture conveys the words of truth that witness to the inner witness of the word.



Wrong I believe strongly in the Trinity doctrine, and i am strongly against Modalism and Oneness theology. You misunderstood me. One being God in three, these three are one 1 John 5:7 and Isaiah 48:12-17. The most powerful Trinity verses in scripture. When i say three persons make up the one God. i am not teaching three Gods agreeing or that they are different modes. But The Son speaks to the father and the Holy Ghost speaks etc. Each is personal. I hold the traditional view of the Trinity.



2 Cor 4 about the devil blinding the minds of them that believe not, is part of that answer.



Christ accomplished the work for those of the past who looked for Gods righteousness to save them. jesus said blessed are those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled. This righteousness is revealed in the gospel, being witness by the law and the prophets.



This is not accurate . The word of God does not always refer to scripture. it can be the spoken word and that word can speak in the heart from God. This word is inward as well, even before men had scripture. This word is the seed sown in the hearts of all men from Adam until today. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight , referring to the word of god that is quick and powerful.

When the word of God came unto the prophets and they spoke it forth then, men wrote it down. the word of God was in them, as the spirit of Christ in them, and this word was nigh them as in all. They heard that word and spoke it. This is the treasure in earthen vessels.



You show that you have much to learn. these spiritual things we are talking about are not seen but in the spirit, Consider

"...in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." ( Romans 8:1-4 KJV)

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the response to your error. Jesus is the way the truth and the life and the truth will make you free. or in liberty.


You are very far from spiritual understanding in many things and confound yourself not even understanding the seed as the word of God sown in the heart. This is all through the bible even connected to the Old Testament new birth.



They had the inner reality of Christ in them, but the understanding of this fully was veiled and shadowed in types etc. Paul is clear here. I believe you have not really considered this section and are speaking too quickly. We are talking about the mystery of Christ in you. This is a deep mystery and runs all through the bible and to understand this puts what i say in true light.



No you are not seeing the truth in these areas and so all you can hear is words like seed, word, Christ, the Light and they do not connect to you. You miss the inward reality and life of these things.

Consider what jesus mean when he said men must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life IN THEM.

Or what Jesus means when he says that men should believe in the light to be children of light, and if the light that is IN THEM, be darkness how great is that darkness.

God desires truth in the inward parts and in the hidden part he will make men to know wisdom. These are what Paul refers to as the "secrets of men" Romans 2. Where the work of the law is written in their hearts, their cons hence also bearing witness. This is to those who do not have the scriptures and God deals with them the natural way he does with all me, inwardly, by the Light and this light is His Son. This was what Paul meant when he said that God called him from a child to reveal His Son in him. He did not say "to put his Son in me", but to reveal His Son in him.

Consider these verses of the inward life and word and seed in men, where no scriptures were ( and consider Abraham who had no scriptures and who is the example of faith.

"14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." ( Romans 2:14-16 KJV)

"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being." ( Acts 17:26-28 KJV)

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." ( Romans 1:18,19 KJV)

I believe you are very far from the truth in your understanding, a whole inner world of the kingdom and Gods inner working in all men is hid from you it seems. You would make the word "word" with a small "w", mean only the scriptures, which is not the case as we see.

You need to lighten up on your condescending tone. I don't know how you can say that you do not sin when you are obviously not showing the fruit of the Spirit in your words. It is sin to not show love to your brethren and to berate them. So let's end the 'I do not sin' verbiage. To discuss one needs to listen as well as speak.

Also, it would be really helpful for all of us if you would break down these different concepts into single posts so that people can follow easily. It is very confusing to have this all as one huge post that no one can follow.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No Judas betrayed Jesus. To Betray means to have the trust oce and go against that trust. Judas was jesus win familiar friend in whom he once trusted then lifted up his heel against him.

Jesus said it was better for him that he was never born.

So any who try to imply he was some kind of hero doing what was forced him to do in some erroneous destination understanding are wrong.

Yes God knows all things and sees all things. But like Lucifer who was created perfect in all his was and walked with God and then who fell and is headed to the lake of fire one day. God still walked with him at the time and Lucifer has no truth in him as jesus said in John. Also God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels who fell. God didn't make it before they fell as far as we know. This shows that it wasn't the intention that they fall.

Since Jesus knew what Judas would do before he did it it is not betrayal in the sense that Jesus did not know what Judas would do from the beginning. What Judas and the devil meant for evil, God turned around into the greatest blessing of all.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well said brother. I was just at a Wednesday night service last night (Checking out a new church to find believers who want to have house fellowship who are like minded in the LORD). The pastor was talking in the book of Romans; And when he spoke, I knew he had to be Once Saved Always Saved. I asked him after the service if he believed it and he essentially admitted that he did (using different words). For he said that you can never lose salvation but that you can choose not to follow Christ anymore. But he also said there are false believers. By this I gather that he thinks that those who choosed to stop in following Christ never were saved to begin with. I presented many problem passages for him and I knew how to defend the faith. I said, "what about Judas"? And he basically didn't want to get into discussing that.

He said we cannot know who is saved or not saved. I said I disagreed. I wanted to tell him about 1 John 2:3-6. But there wasn't time. He mentioned 1 Corinthians 3 and one's works being burned up and yet being saved. I said, are these evil and sinful works? Does one build on the foundation of Christ those things that are sinful? Is that what the context is talking about? He also mentioned 2 Timothy 2:13. A verse that is rarely brought up in the debate of Once Saved Always Saved because it is so easily refuted. At the moment, I couldn't quote the entire passage. But I looked it up last night and I remembered what I said to others before on it. Verse 12 refutes the OSAS Proponent's false view. If we deny Him, He will deny us. So verse 13 is talking about a concept that is similar. Verse 13 is saying that if we are unfaithful, God is still faithful to His righteous ways and His own Word (And He is not faithful to us - if we are in unbelief). For in Hebrews 11, it says without faith, it is impossible to please GOD.

I also asked, "Does not God have to agree with a person's evil in order to save them despite their doing evil?" He said, "no." To me, that doesn't make any sense. How can God disconnect Himself from one of His people in doing evil? It doesn't make any sense!

In any event, we both smiled and we hugged, and I said, "God bless you."
And me and my wife left.
I then was explaining to my wife in the car all the passages that refute this wrong way of thinking on the Scriptures.
Saying to others (using different words) that they do not need to worry about sin because we have a belief on Jesus now and are saved for all time is wrong because it gives most people the wrong message that they can live however they like with the thinking they are saved. In fact, many who used to be ex-OSAS proponents will say this very thing. They used to treat sin as not that big of deal (When the Bible says it is a big deal).

The pastor also wanted to make a point that it is futile to not be aware of all our sins. I said there are sins that lead unto the second death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Revelation 21:8 are sins that lead to the second death and 1 Peter 3:21 would be an example of a sin that does not lead unto the second death. He honestly did not know what to say to that one.

In any event, I will be praying for him. He is a Jewish pastor and he is a really nice and down to Earth person who is funny and kind. So I will be praying for him. I may even take him up at his offer for coffee somewhere and talk more with him. But please pray for him, my brother. I will be doing the same (So that he might see).

Anyways, thank you so much for this thread.
May God truly bless your life and your efforts.

...

God bless, and yes there are many, many passages showing a person can be saved and lose it. They are so clear and powerful it takes a lot of scriptural twisting by the other side to avoid them.

To me the angels that sinned and are an example to us in scripture as a warning show clearly the danger, and infant salvation that all one day old children were saved at that time they were born and if they died they would be with God, defeats many points of the Calvinistic view and also the child OCAS idea as well.

And Judas is a good example of this as I have been trying to show from scripture. Many just avoid it as you said and others twist it to make the text say what it doesn't say. Traditions of men and doctrines of men do not go easily.

Consider also Jeremiah 23 about the false prophets who promise peace to those who are in wickedness, and strengthen the hands of evil men. This is like some OSAS ideas that say you are still ok if you are in wickedness and unbelief.

Consider also Hebrews 3:12-14 or so. This is unanswerable by the OSAS camp. I have never heard a good answer from their side on that section of scripture. It shows that we don't lose salvation by works but by unbelief in the heart. Sin hardens us and the danger of continuing in sin is to he hardened to the danger of unbelief. As the writer warns to believers, including himself in the chapter. There are so many other verses which would take all day to go through.

But I feel for your conviction, I have been there also. And its good that you want to gather in homes with other believers. This is the biblical apostolic pattern. The traditions of men creating these large man made buildings and calling them churches and the house of God etc is false and sets in the minds of others a false church and the very function of the church cannot happen in these lecturere formats. In these religious forms the body is silent and cannot minister to each other as they are commanded to do in scripture ( 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Romans 12, Ephesians 4:11-16, Colossians 3 etc) and they have one man as a master and Lord over the flock unlike the biblical order in God where there are elders ( plural) in every church ( singular).

If you send me your email I can send you a Newsletter I put out with another friend on this and i can send a letter I wrote to a church recently about these things.

If you lived in Ontario It would be easier to work with another home meeting.

God bless