Once Saved, Always Saved?

Do you agree with OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved)?

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1John2:4

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Sin becomes a very big deal as we are beaten sore by God as we lose rewards as well ..I am unsure why one can think that Christ destroyed sin and devil on the cross states that He will finish the works he started in us ..that is a promise and one we should believe .. there is no will finish the works as long as this or that ..he works on us no matter where we are and will complete the works in us IF he started them ..in order for him to start we must be saved we accept him truly ..and sin Is ALWAYS a big deal you do not do them ..
What do your mean beaten sore by God? I am kinda confused by your post would you mind re stating it. Or maybe I missed something in a previous post. Would you mind referring me back to a previous post if i missed something relevant. I am just not understanding your the point you are convaying. Thanks, sorry for the inconvenience.
 
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Alithis

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John 10:27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
and who are his sheep ? the ones doing their own will ?, being sports fanatics, drinking beer going to movies and church on sunday ??.. nope so the verse does not apply to those who are not doing his will.. thus it remains "if we abide in him and he in us .. and endure to the end ,we will be saved .. if not we will be cut off . if we are abiding inn him and are remaining obedience to him then we are his sheep ..if not .. we are not his sheep and thus wont be saved .
if we were his sheep , but we ceased to abide in him.. we are no longer his sheep .

if we are no longer hos sheep then we can be plucked out of his hand .. but if we are abiding i him and are obedience to him ,, then we are hos sheep .. and safe .

to remain safe we must remain in him . just because no one can pluck them out of his hand does not mean he cannot cast them from his hand just as he will spew the from his mouth .
 
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1John2:4

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I don't know a single Christian who says that OSAS is wishy-washy / no big deal. On the contrary, sin is the source of grief in the lives of most Christians who admit it. Some confess their grief in prayer, some to another Christian or Christians. I had a Christian lady cry out in agony to me, "I have a secret sin!" My response: "No sins are secret. They are all well-known to your Savior. Confess that sin; rejoice in His forgiveness." I, personally, could not make it through the day if I did not consciously, sincerely, repent. 1 John 1:9 is the key.
That is great news, I hope she was able to turn from that sin. Repent means to turn if you repent you stop doing the sin. Then you are healed, covered. I have confessed things and gone right back to the sin that is not repentance. It is not until we truly repent that Yeshua can cover our sin.
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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and who are his sheep ? the ones doing their own will ?, being sports fanatics, drinking beer going to movies and church on sunday ??.. nope so the verse does not apply to those who are not doing his will.. thus it remains "if we abide in him and he in us .. and endure to the end ,we will be saved .. if not we will be cut off . if we are abiding inn him and are remaining obedience to him then we are his sheep ..if not .. we are not his sheep and thus wont be saved .
if we were his sheep , but we ceased to abide in him.. we are no longer his sheep .

if we are no longer hos sheep then we can be plucked out of his hand .. but if we are abiding i him and are obedience to him ,, then we are hos sheep .. and safe .

to remain safe we must remain in him . just because no one can pluck them out of his hand does not mean he cannot cast them from his hand just as he will spew the from his mouth .

You'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense. I wish I could recall all of it, but I can't. Blame that on having four kids and a life of benodiazapens. However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him and at what point does one know that we have gone too far. See, the problem I have with your version of salvation is not only does it take away from Christ work on the cross, but it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place. So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation? See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace? Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it. Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved? Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins? There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth. I know what your arguments are toward OSAS are probably going to be. That everyone who believes in it loves sin and is trying to deceive themselves into thinking they can live how they want, but that's not true either. Anywho, I think this is all worth thinking about at length.

I also believe your view of salvation takes away from what Christ said on the cross when he said "It is finished".
 
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faroukfarouk

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John 6:66-67 From that time, many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?' " This Scripture tells me it IS possible to "turn back and no longer follow Him," and Jesus also asked the Twelve if they wanted to "go away as well." He would not have asked that if it were not possible for them to leave. I believe we ALL should "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," as Php. 2:12 commands us to do.
Romans 8.38-39 is very relevant.

As is John 10.27-30:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one."
 
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ldibart

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What do your mean beaten sore by God? I am kinda confused by your post would you mind re stating it. Or maybe I missed something in a previous post. Would you mind referring me back to a previous post if i missed something relevant. I am just not understanding your the point you are convaying. Thanks, sorry for the inconvenience.
to be chastised by god as a discipline but was I believe it was stated as chastised sore .that is for those that are God children he disciplines other wise we be fatherless. this discipline is so we obey him so sin is a big deal but not hell bound.
 
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sparow

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These supposed contrary versus seem to always not hit it right on the head not like this for instance ..He will finish the works he started in you ..this is a promise shoud this scripture be negated ..this talks of a true conversion of the believer has a PROMISE of the works of christ being finished in them ..we all have this promise ..we cannot believe in christs death ressurection without it being by the sealing power of the holy ghost ..

..and the truth is shown that HE will do the works in us and he works through us to the point that even our works are by him because he knows what is needed perfectly to complete us we do not ...

this follows a simple All Glory to God ..Our works are not even we do but He does when we do things on our own it always tends to hinder stress out and suffer..let him work ..relax ..think about this .

If you relax and pray and just recognize where we are wrong and understand we have eternal life and yes we are punshed for sin and can lose rewards that is bad ..but not to the point we are cast into hell fire.

. we ask for forgiveness he works it out of us over time..we may not like the path he picks or how long some things take but all glory to GOD . We were dead in sin ..when he said the day we eat we shall surely die ..they died spiritually they are dead dead ...the tree of life was there to keep their physical bodies alive to match their spirits being alive when the spirit died ..the gift of physical life eternal was taken make no mistake that tree of life was there to maintain our physical life ..a lot of people do not want to think or realize that when they ate of that tree the death did come instantly and was always meant spiritually, the secondary thought was ....shall they reach forth their hand and take and live forever ..so they were removed from the garden this shows that death that was spoken of was a spiritual one ..and now..Jesus became that tree of life, all that picks from that tree will live forever .. we pass from death ..to life in him and when we accept him we are now made alive again in spirit ..we die still because the tree of life is no longer here for our physical bodies to eat of ..but our new bodies are on the way to match our spirits ..

it is wrong to serve a God of fear of hell ..thats a fact ..and thats why I know that he would not put that there on his sons and daughters ..how can anyone love and really serve when in the back of their minds is a what if hell still is waiting ..because know on is perfect no one can be sure then that hell is coming .

It would be wrong to serve God out of a fear of hell; hell in the Bible usually refers to a grave or a place where bodies are disposed of like a rubbish tip and refers to the first death which all die anyway. God knows why and when people serve Him; the people who are saved seek salvation, seek God, seek the truth; fear maybe a useful emotion; as Jesus said, it is better to enter in with limbs missing than to miss out.
 
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Winken

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You'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense.
Good! Great! Progress!

However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him
Romans 10:8-13.

and at what point does one know that we have gone too far.
He does the "knowing," and keeps the Christian secure and informed.

it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place.
Instructions: Romans 10:8-13. Assurance: Romans 8:1.

So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation?
Romans 10:8-13 You SHALL be saved! Not complicated at all!

See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace?
No.

Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it.

You can't lose it.

Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved?

Romans 10:8-13.

Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins?
Forgiven.

There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth.

Romans 10:8-13. Romans 8:1. No convolution there.

The Cross. It is finished. Sin/sins forgiven. Fellowship with your Creator. Slide into sin? 1 John 1:9. Fellowship restored, salvation never at issue.
 
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keembo

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I think the problem lies in how we define "once saved, always saved." You are saved in which terms?

I agree that the terms need defining. After all, John 15:4, depending on translation says either "Abide in Me" or "Remain in Me." The remain certainly would insinuate that you are there at one time but need to remain. This could be carried over into behavior as seen in 1 John 2 v6 where scripture states "he who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as he walked." One can also find interesting scripture spoken by Jesus in Matt beginning with v21 where it states "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to then, 'Inever knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness!' Certainly it sounds like those are acknowledging the diety of Jesus but when he said he never knew you sounds like they really weren't sealed even though they believed in Him and his power. Remaining is interesting. You can't remain in something unless you were already there to begin with, but scripture certainly states that if you remain in Me and I in you. The directions are clear...Remain. God bless.
 
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larssc

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I will reply to the first post. The question of eternal security has been questioned and defended since the Reformation. It can be stated simply that those who fall away were not the elect, and were not saved. Many disciples (small D) of Christ stop following. They might have stop believing, in a worldly sense, but never had been regenerated, born again.

As for names being blotted out.

"Some have difficulty reconciling this with the security of the believer. But this is only a difficulty if it is possible for one of the elect to be blotted out of the book. If the names of all the living are written and those who never attain salvation are blotted out, then being blotted out does not correspond to losing salvation:

To assume that remaining in the book of life rests upon continuing loyalty to Christ ignores the fact that before all human faith or striving lie the divine choice and the divine initiative. The worthiness of the faithful . . . is based on divine grace (cf. Rev. Rev. 7:14+). It is incomprehensible that it could be lost through human unfaithfulness. Couple with these considerations the fact that Ps. Ps. 69:28 has the names of the wicked in the book of life, and the basis for an assumption that [being blotted out] refers to a loss of one’s salvation is eliminated.

Thus, the warning Jesus gives to the church at Sardis (Rev. Rev. 3:5+) is an admonition to those who are not yet overcomers to become overcomers or else their names will be blotted out. The double negative found there, οὐ μὴ [ou mē] , indicates that those who overcome will never be blotted out—which is the substance of the promise Jesus makes."
 
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ldibart

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You'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense. I wish I could recall all of it, but I can't. Blame that on having four kids and a life of benodiazapens. However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him and at what point does one know that we have gone too far. See, the problem I have with your version of salvation is not only does it take away from Christ work on the cross, but it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place. So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation? See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace? Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it. Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved? Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins? There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth. I know what your arguments are toward OSAS are probably going to be. That everyone who believes in it loves sin and is trying to deceive themselves into thinking they can live how they want, but that's not true either. Anywho, I think this is all worth thinking about at length.

I also believe your view of salvation takes away from what Christ said on the cross when he said "It is finished".
haha some mornings a toe stub is not needed just the mere waking up part will do it hehehe
 
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spiritman

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Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22
Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.


In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

It is clear that we can lose our salvation if we are not fruitful according to the scriptures. To be in Christ is to be fruitful. There should be no disagreement with the fact that to be in the Vine means to be in Christ. v. 5 "I am the Vine you are the branches." The only way you can be in Christ/Vine is to be saved.

The text tells us how to be fruitful.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

What does it mean to abide? The word in the Greek also means to continue and remain. The Mood for this word is imperative and not a request. We continue in the Vine/Christ by keeping His commandments. To abide in Christ is to abide/continue in His love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide/continue/remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide/continue in his love.

A person that is not fruitful is one that is not abiding/continuing in Christ by keeping His commandments. To follow His commandments is to be fruitful.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

What happens to the man that does not abide/continue in the Vine/Christ? "He is cast forth as a branch, withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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It is clear that we can lose our salvation if we are not fruitful according to the scriptures. To be in Christ is to be fruitful. There should be no disagreement with the fact that to be in the Vine means to be in Christ. v. 5 "I am the Vine you are the branches." The only way you can be in Christ/Vine is to be saved.

The text tells us how to be fruitful.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

What does it mean to abide? The word in the Greek also means to continue and remain. The Mood for this word is imperative and not a request. We continue in the Vine/Christ by keeping His commandments. To abide in Christ is to abide/continue in His love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide/continue/remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide/continue in his love.

A person that is not fruitful is one that is not abiding/continuing in Christ by keeping His commandments. To follow His commandments is to be fruitful.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

What happens to the man that does not abide/continue in the Vine/Christ? "He is cast forth as a branch, withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

I posted this earlier, but I'd you to answer if you would please. Also, if OSAS is right than you go to hell lol. Isn't that funny. Anyway. Here it is.



You'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense. I wish I could recall all of it, but I can't. Blame that on having four kids and a life of benodiazapens. However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him and at what point does one know that we have gone too far. See, the problem I have with your version of salvation is not only does it take away from Christ work on the cross, but it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place. So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation? See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace? Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it. Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved? Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins? There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth. I know what your arguments are toward OSAS are probably going to be. That everyone who believes in it loves sin and is trying to deceive themselves into thinking they can live how they want, but that's not true either. Anywho, I think this is all worth thinking about at length.

I also believe your view of salvation takes away from what Christ said on the cross when he said "It is finished".
 
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Alithis

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You'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense. I wish I could recall all of it, but I can't. Blame that on having four kids and a life of benodiazapens. However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him and at what point does one know that we have gone too far. See, the problem I have with your version of salvation is not only does it take away from Christ work on the cross, but it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place. So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation? See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace? Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it. Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved? Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins? There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth. I know what your arguments are toward OSAS are probably going to be. That everyone who believes in it loves sin and is trying to deceive themselves into thinking they can live how they want, but that's not true either. Anywho, I think this is all worth thinking about at length.

I also believe your view of salvation takes away from what Christ said on the cross when he said "It is finished".
the problem here is .. you assume a person born of the spirit of god would do such things to lode salvation and you assume you have salvation.. we do but by faith .. by faith we are saved but that is calling that which is not as though it already is .. (the definition of faith ) but the truth is no one receives the salvation of their soul in actuality until Christ returns -we are placing our faith in him to save us when he does and it is he who has laid out the conditions of that salvation which he, through no work of ours ,had provided . its best to follow HIS instructions obediently-those who don't .. are not his .they are rebellious .they remain at enmity with him..
so another problem is .. many who claim to be those "once saved always saved folks "are not his at all .

by the way i bash my fingers on a regular basis and never let out a slew of profanity ..;)
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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It is clear that we can lose our salvation if we are not fruitful according to the scriptures. To be in Christ is to be fruitful. There should be no disagreement with the fact that to be in the Vine means to be in Christ. v. 5 "I am the Vine you are the branches." The only way you can be in Christ/Vine is to be saved.

The text tells us how to be fruitful.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

What does it mean to abide? The word in the Greek also means to continue and remain. The Mood for this word is imperative and not a request. We continue in the Vine/Christ by keeping His commandments. To abide in Christ is to abide/continue in His love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide/continue/remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide/continue in his love.

A person that is not fruitful is one that is not abiding/continuing in Christ by keeping His commandments. To follow His commandments is to be fruitful.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

What happens to the man that does not abide/continue in the Vine/Christ? "He is cast forth as a branch, withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

I've heard that the branches being burnt is actually referring to the man destroying our testimonies. Seeing as how men wouldn't throw us in hell, because only God can do that.
 
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Alithis

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I've heard that the branches being burnt is actually referring to the man destroying our testimonies. Seeing as how men wouldn't throw us in hell, because only God can do that.
scriptural reference..? mans opinions dont carry weight
 
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