Once Saved, Always Saved?

[דוד חֵן (David)]

That's one way of looking at it, but most people understand that we're talking about the ASSURANCE of salvation.

I think the problem lies in how we define "once saved, always saved." You are saved in which terms?

 

[Albion]

But did not Jesus call Peter the Devil?

What do you think that proves, if anything? I didn't think that anyone had asserted that it's possible to say who is for certain saved and who is not. All that was shown with that Judas example is that there's no reason to think being one of the Apostles means, in itself, that the person was among the Elect.

 

[Albion]

I think the problem lies in how we define "once saved, always saved." You are saved in which terms?

Well, you know that 'OSAS' is a kind of slang, and it is the jargon that usually is preferred by those who oppose the idea of Eternal Security.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

What do you think that proves, if anything? I didn't think that anyone had asserted that it's possible to say who is for certain saved and who is not. All that was shown with that Judas example is that there's no reason to think being one of the Apostles means, in itself, that the person was among the Elect.

He obviously fulfilled some part of God's plan, but there's no particular reason to assume that every one of the Apostles must have been saved. Christ essentially wrote him off as a devil at the time of the betrayal, if you notice, and did not lament the loss.

It "proves" that if your statement is correct, the statement will also apply to Peter. You are essentially saying that Jesus "wrote [Peter] off as the devil" as well.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Well, you know that 'OSAS' is a kind of slang, and it is the jargon that usually is preferred by those who oppose the idea of Eternal Security.

I am willing to learn, however, please provide a biblical fact through scripture regarding "eternal security".

 

[Albion]

It "proves" that if your statement is correct, the statement will also apply to Peter. You are essentially saying that Jesus "wrote [Peter] off as the devil" as well.

None of that is true. What I said was that there's no reason to think that Judas had to have been among the Elect just for being one of the Twelve. We also see Jesus pointedly NOT speaking of him as such on the occasion of Judas' betrayal.

The fact that he may also have likened Peter's weak faith to Satan in no way proves that he also wasn't saved, or that he was saved, or anything else except that he showed a lack of faith at that point.

 

[SeventyOne]

Depends on how you get around the part in blue?
John 10:27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

What if you stopped following the Lord and had gone astray? What's your opinion about Judas Iscariot? Was he not saved at one point?

Take a look at the verse again. The sheep...

1. Hear His voice
2. Are known by Him
3. Follow Him
4. Are given eternal life
5. Will never perish
6. Cannot be snatched out of the Fathers hand

Now, if the question is what happens if they stop following Him and perish, the answer is clearly they were not sheep, because the sheep will follow and will never perish. That's the characteristics of a sheep. If what you describe has different characteristics, then it's not a sheep.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

"Salvation is by grace through faith and faith is made real by obedience." - Scripture.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Take a look at the verse again. The sheep...

1. Hear His voice
2. Are known by Him
3. Follow Him
4. Are given eternal life
5. Will never perish
6. Cannot be snatched out of the Fathers hand

Now, if the question is what happens if they stop following Him and perish, the answer is clearly they were not sheep, because the sheep will follow and will never perish. That's the characteristics of a sheep. If what you describe has different characteristics, then it's not a sheep.

Regarding (4. and 5.),
At what point do we never die? In this life or the next?

 

[SeventyOne]

What do you think that proves, if anything? I didn't think that anyone had asserted that it's possible to say who is for certain saved and who is not. All that was shown with that Judas example is that there's no reason to think being one of the Apostles means, in itself, that the person was among the Elect.

Let's not forget that Jesus called Judas a devil (John 6:70), and Peter attributed Psalms 109:8 as applying to Judas in Acts 1:20. When one reviews Psalm 109 to find out more about Judas, we read in verses 6 and 7, "Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he is tried, let him come forth guilty; let his prayer be counted as sin!"

The Bible describes him as a devil, a wicked man, a guilty man, and an accuser. That doesn't sound very forgiven and justified before the Lord to me.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

None of that is true. What I said was that there's no reason to think that Judas had to have been among the Elect just for being one of the Twelve. We also see Jesus pointedly NOT speaking of him as such on the occasion of Judas' betrayal.

The fact that he may also have likened Peter's weak faith to Satan in no way proves that he also wasn't saved, or that he was saved, or anything else except that he showed a lack of faith at that point.

Did you ever think that just because someone is not "elect" the opportunity for salvation is still avialable?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Your point is?

Jesus doesn't equivocate. He said what he meant and he meant what he said and he proved it by dying and sealing the deal. Any questions? Besides, are you sure you're saved after being re-born? If not one would have to find the verse wherein God said we are un-regenerated by our choice or his.
Then the question moves to, are you sure you can be un-redeemed, un-baptized in the spirit, can evict God's holy spirit by choice?

Oh, and finally, those verses that have the Father saying he called us to him would have to have counter verses wherein God says his omniscience erred.

I was running errands the other day for the office and I heard a radio pastor talking about this very thing. He said, if you sin and don't repent of it, you go to Hell.
So repent of your sins all the time so as to insure you have no place in the lake of eternal fire.

I thank God for people like that having airtime. Because those pastors are the ones that show us what it means in the scriptures when God says through his son Jesus, my sheep know my voice.
The sheep that believe that man on the radio aren't the one's God called. Because that man isn't.

 

[SeventyOne]

Regarding (4. and 5.),
At what point do we never die? In this life or the next?

If you already differentiate between this life and the next, then you already know in which one of those lives we are prone to die.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

"Salvation is by grace through faith and faith is made real by obedience." - Scripture.

I agree. If you accept Jesus as Savior but deny Him as Lord...you reject Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Did you ever think that just because someone is not "elect" the opportunity for salvation is still avialable?

The thought has occurred and some people do take that POV. I'm not persuaded of it, however.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The thought has occurred and some people do take that POV. I'm not persuaded of it, however.

Ok. I am just looking for some common ground to work with. I do believe that God does elect some to be saved....for a purpose. You see many examples of these people in the bible however people are still elected today. Scripture, as you have pointed out, make it clear. However, I have to believe that if it is God's will that none should parish (2 Peter 3:9), the opportunity is avialable to all. Or else God would be either a liar or powerless. I have found that this not only agrees with scripture, but it does not strip away from God. If you can provide anything that would suggest this option is not possible I would like to hear it.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Jesus doesn't equivocate. He said what he meant and he meant what he said and he proved it by dying and sealing the deal. Any questions? Besides, are you sure you're saved after being re-born? If not one would have to find the verse wherein God said we are un-regenerated by our choice or his.
Then the question moves to, are you sure you can be un-redeemed, un-baptized in the spirit, can evict God's holy spirit by choice?

Oh, and finally, those verses that have the Father saying he called us to him would have to have counter verses wherein God says his omniscience erred.

I was running errands the other day for the office and I heard a radio pastor talking about this very thing. He said, if you sin and don't repent of it, you go to Hell.
So repent of your sins all the time so as to insure you have no place in the lake of eternal fire.

I thank God for people like that having airtime. Because those pastors are the ones that show us what it means in the scriptures when God says through his son Jesus, my sheep know my voice.
The sheep that believe that man on the radio aren't the one's God called. Because that man isn't.

Apparently, you missed out what I was saying from the very beginning. Have a read of Revelation 2-3, would you?

 

[Job8]

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

One can take all these passages and interpret them in the light of the eternal security of the believer. A person who claims to be a Christian but produces no spiritual fruit is in fact NOT a genuine Christian. The indwelling Holy Spirit must, and will, produce spiritual fruit.

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

To apply this passage to a lack of eternal security is to misapply it. It is contrasting unbelieving Jews (branches cut off) with believing Gentiles (branches grafted) into "the good olive tree" (believing Israel). This has nothing to do with loss of salvation, since unbelief means no salvation.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

That's one way to interpret it. The other way to interpret it is to see that this is further assurance to the believer.

What many people fail to understand is that (1) eternal life is God's gift of grace to undeserving sinners, (2) Christians are deemed to be as righteous as Christ Himself through imputed righteousness, and (3) the New Birth is irreversible since no one can be "unborn" (either physically or spiritually).

 

[Albion]

Ok. I am just looking for some common ground to work with. I do believe that God does elect some to be saved....for a purpose. You see many examples of these people in the bible however people are still elected today. Scripture, as you have pointed out, make it clear. However, I have to believe that if it is God's will that none should parish (2 Peter 3:9), the opportunity is avialable to all.

Then you don't believe it.

I think that this verse is improperly understood by a lot of people who cite it, but in any case it's not possible that God has an Elect and yet saves everyone. The latter, if true, would make the former pointless or redundant.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

In regard to my OP, my question is about the scriptural base of the doctrine of "OSAS." My question was, "Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?"

I'll advise Job8 to read post #1 again.

John 15:2
2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit.

Romans 11:22
22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.

My thread had done its purpose and I'll not reply beyond this post. As always, anyone with questions may send me a private message.