Once Saved, Always Saved?

[GotJesusRomans109]

Explain why that is the case. Why cannot God elect some individuals and predestined some to be saved for a specific purpose and not also keep the door open for anyone else to choose to be saved by their own choosing?

Btw...i never said that God saves everyone. I said the opportunity is avialable to everyone who so chooses.

You did NOT choose me but I chose you out of the world... Jn 15:16
Salvation is of God alone the will of man (freewill) is irrelevant in salvation process.
John 1:12 1But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Romans 9:
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Judas Isacriota very special case was chosen for his love of money and he would do what he must when push comes to shove.
How many wolves in sheeps clothing How many false prophets (preachers/believers)?
Peter asks Jesus look this false disciple (believer) shalll we cast him out? If he is not against us he is for us? Don't pluck him out Free labor for the kingdom of God.

 

[Alithis]

..partial sentance presented -Paul said, "Do we continue in sin, certainly not."

I believe all this means is we reap what we sow. and if we continue to sin after we have given the strength to overcome the last ailment then the next wave will be stronger. Galatians 6:7

actually it doesn't mean that ..it means what it says .

 

[Alithis]

Faith and Faith alone.
The works of faith is simply if you continue believing.
Those who overcome is the simplicity in believing (by faith).
and we know that without God this is impossible John 15:1-5
Salvation is of God and God alone and Jesus is that author of our faith beginning and ending because He always finishes what He started.
Yes, first "WE" must make our election sure that we may not be a counterfeit Christian thinking we are saved but never were (because deep down they really didnt have faith) Those that fall away were never Christians (saved) according to 1 jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Many are called but few are chosen and we also know that wolves in sheeps clothing are in The body of Christ midst False (or better sid counterfeit) prophets (preachers).
So the parameters of an elect or chosen Christian by God and NOT of ourselves Falls under "Again" *Faith* alone and not of works.
Notice I never said and I am not ever saying or condoning a fruitless righteous/religious and dutiful acts of the fruit of the spirit. Because we cant earn salvation. But I would agree that that wicked servant will lose His reward in Heaven other than salvation.

there is no such thing as faith and faith alone .. faith has an evidence that it exists . just as love that is not expressed outwardly doesn't exist . sure we don't earn salvation .. but if there are no works of faith we sure don't have salvation yet.
faith is not saying words with the lips ..it does not take faith to recite prayers ,attend meetings ,sing songs .. none of these things are of faith .. they are "dead works ' just as sins are dead works , world that do not require any faith . just a feigned Christianity . so i raise the same point you did earlier.. may people who say they cant lose their salvation are not actually saved .they have not yet repented of dead works .

 

[GotJesusRomans109]

Why do you keep saying this? Can God not elect people to be saved for a purpose and not give everyone else an opportunity to be saved? Key word here is "opportunity". I never once said or implied that God will save everyone "regardless of anything and everything". Please show me something in scripture that specifically says that there is no opportunity for someone to be saved and that it is only the elect who will be saved. Why is the door for salvation closed for the non-elect who desire salvation?

Romans3:
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none (EMPHASIS NONE), that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy
Romans9:
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Alithis]

Romans3:
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none (EMPHASIS NONE), that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy
Romans9:
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

hmm but nope ..for he does not stop there at verse 22 ..in fact Paul put no verses in ,nor chapters .. so you must continue on with the rest of his letter and not stop there

 

[GotJesusRomans109]

there is no such thing as faith and faith alone .. faith has an evidence that it exists . just as love that is not expressed outwardly doesn't exist . sure we don't earn salvation .. but if there are no works of faith we sure don't have salvation yet.
faith is not saying words with the lips ..it does not take faith to recite prayers ,attend meetings ,sing songs .. none of these things are of faith .. they are "dead works ' just as sins are dead works , world that do not require any faith . just a feigned Christianity . so i raise the same point you did earlier.. may people who say they cant lose their salvation are not actually saved .they have not yet repented of dead works .

The continuance of belief is the work in itself. Consider the thief on the cross? Did he get baptized and do many evident works? Was God respecting of persons by allowing him to get away from doing external works? But yet his lack of works did not hinder his future arrival in paradise (Abraham's Bosom) Now we must ask Is Jesus the same yesterday today and forever or are there special cases where God they can break what God has established?
A good exmple of James Faith by works is Peter asking to wlk on water jesus said come Peter by faith started walking Now, here is where faith by works comes to play But satan made the water a tempest toss and Peter rather than focusing on Jesus and in his walk or works of faith *believing* He started sinking When Peter cried for help because his sinking in doubt (emphasis on doubt) Jesus saves him and places him in the boat then Jesus asks Why did you doubt? His works of that faith fltered/perished.
In like manner faith by believing alone is enough to get you saved.
Again, i do NOT condone a fruitless walk but I am advocating for those that decided to hide their talent rather than use it but still enter in.
1 Corinthians 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
No works but saved !!!
Selah

 

[GotJesusRomans109]

hmm but nope ..for he does not stop there at verse 22 ..in fact Paul put no verses in ,nor chapters .. so you must continue on with the rest of his letter and not stop there

That is a quote from OT Psalm 14:1-3 (in context) I only quoted Paul quoting OT
Selah

1{To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Ken Rank]

There is no reason for this topic to go past 16 pages. A lot of "world philosophers" here...but has anyone consulted the word of God instead for the answer?
John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

EVERLASTING. Not temporary. Everlasting means FOREVER.

You have to be careful Morse, 16 pages of answers and then you have the final answer means only your understanding is truth? Look, what if I just stopped believing? I know a family that was new to the faith though very sold out to it... and in their early zeal had confronted a few Jewish people they wanted to share the gospel with. Unfortunately, these weren't just Jews, they were anti-missionaries. The anti-missionaries showed them something Paul said and compared it to something in the Law and that immediately shook the faith of the family. Over time and with an inability to reconcile the two passages, they first threw out all of Paul's writings. Then, all but Matthew. From there all of the NT and Jesus with it... and a year later were barely clinging to the book of Deuteronomy and now they follow new age traditions. I won't share what the anti-missionaries quoted because I don't think most Christians can reconcile it (just being honest) and I don't want to harm the faith of any. My point is... a person can turn away. Want real biblical proof?

Start at Sinai... a covenant is made with Israel, an EVERLASTING COVENANT. After Solomon Israel divides into two kingdoms, Judah to the south and Israel to the north. Judah, more or less, continued to walk in covenant. Israel did not... they were corrupt, idolatrous, and ultimately paid the price by being scattered into the nations and given up to their idols... even called "not my people." Now... there are promises to bring them back, in fact, I suspect for many reasons we could very well be them. But... Israel was still cut off from God and the covenant.... if "once saved always saved" works as the Baptists preach it... this biblical fact can't be a reality, but it is, it very much is.

In the end, all this doesn't matter.... WALK WITH YESHUA and the rest takes care of itself. That is the message, not "Hey, say this prayer and in the end you'll always be saved."

 

[Ken Rank]

However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him and at what point does one know that we have gone too far.

May I? Salvation is, has been, and always will be... a heart issue. It isn't about being pious, it isn't about total and perfect obedience, it is about the heart that is aimed at God, or not. I think a really good illustration is found in the definition of 3 Hebrew words. I would like to share them....

In English when we see the words sin, transgression, and iniquity... we really don't differentiate them conceptually. In other words, we treat them all as if the same one word. But they are not... and as said, the Hebrew words they would be based on not only depict differing aspects of missing the mark, they also draw a nice picture of what God IS looking for. So here they are...

Chata'ah - the KJV translates this as sin and most lexicons define it as "missing the mark." However, a more complete picture of that word is to imagine an archer and his intent is ALWAYS TO HIT THE TARGET, that is his hearts intent. However, being in a fallen condition, he will from time to time simply "miss the mark." Now the mark is the righteousness of God and chata'ah is very much "unintentional sin."

Avon - KJV generally uses transgression or iniquity here. This is the same target and in this case the archer ALWAYS intends to hit the mark BUT... he gets distracted or caught up in an emotion and temporarily aims at another target. Once he comes to his senses, he senses the guilt and returns to the original target.

Pesha - the KJV translates this as rebellion. Same target, this time the archer KNOWS the target God desires for him to aim at, and he KNOWINGLY determines to aim at anything BUT the target God desires.

Look at the first and last, chata'ah and pesha. One has somebody ALWAYS trying to hit the proper target and the other has some NEVER wanting to hit the target. God knows we will miss from time to time, God knows we might get distracted from time to time (Just look at the lives of the patriarchs or David and we'll see people get distracted) but if the focus or yearning in the heart is for the righteousness of God, then errors or not, He will accept us. Deliberate sin? No... if we know what He wants and deliberately do something else... that isn't love, it is contempt. But if we love God we will aim at His target and when we miss we will take better aim... all out of love. It is a heart condition.

 

[Ken Rank]

Your definition on whom is Christian and who is counterfeit needs revising...
The so called Chrsitians that fall away were never really Christians as the bible gives witness of this in 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I agree definitions are paramount.... but to take one situation where people went out from that congregation and were really never part of it... and then apply that to any Christian EVER who was part of a congregation and then went out from it is really taking a liberty here. Now, I don't care if you are OSAS, I don't see this as the issue so many others do. But, I think personally that this topic is simply a security blanket. It is like the pre-tribulation rapture. I can provide MORE THAN ENOUGH scripture to wipe out Christians being taken before the tribulation (that doctrine is modern, Western and lazy) but millions cling to it because they "fear" the unknown. I think OSAS is embraced out of fear. Now I say that with this caveat... I RESPECT that fear! I do... it is fear that is natural and that also is tied to love for God.

Israel was given a covenant at Sinai and it was called "Everlasting." Years later, Israel divides into two kingdoms and one, the Northern Kingdom called Israel (also Joseph or Ephraim in the writings of the Prophets) was cut off, given up to their idols, and scattered into the nations being called, "Not my people." Now God promises to bring them back... but only if they repent and return to His ways. Otherwise, they remain cut off and there is no question, they were IN COVENANT with God. So if they can get cut off... we can't? We're not that special!

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

OK, maybe harsh in my joking-- but come on!

 

[aiki]

You have to be careful Morse, 16 pages of answers and then you have the final answer means only your understanding is truth? Look, what if I just stopped believing? I know a family that was new to the faith though very sold out to it... and in their early zeal had confronted a few Jewish people they wanted to share the gospel with. Unfortunately, these weren't just Jews, they were anti-missionaries. The anti-missionaries showed them something Paul said and compared it to something in the Law and that immediately shook the faith of the family. Over time and with an inability to reconcile the two passages, they first threw out all of Paul's writings. Then, all but Matthew. From there all of the NT and Jesus with it... and a year later were barely clinging to the book of Deuteronomy and now they follow new age traditions. I won't share what the anti-missionaries quoted because I don't think most Christians can reconcile it (just being honest) and I don't want to harm the faith of any. My point is... a person can turn away. Want real biblical proof?

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Being a disciple of Christ, a Christian, is to enter into a relationship with God. When a person experiences their Maker in the Person of His Spirit convicting them, comforting them, illuminating them, strengthening them, providing for them, and leading them, they cannot be induced into falsehood and apostasy. They know experientially that God exists. They relate with Him every day and it is impossible to deny this - whatever clever arguments may be erected to "prove" His non-existence. The problem is that most people claiming to be Christians have no such daily, personal experience of God. They have never experienced the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or His comfort, or leading, or provision, or illumination. The fruit of the Spirit is absent in their lives. They claim allegiance to Christ but think that walking with God amounts to Bible reading, praying and attending church on Sundays. Such "believers" are always susceptible to apostasy because they only know about God rather than know Him directly. And when their "faith" is seriously challenged, it wilts and dissolves because it had no real root in Christ himself but only in the idea of him.

Start at Sinai... a covenant is made with Israel, an EVERLASTING COVENANT. After Solomon Israel divides into two kingdoms, Judah to the south and Israel to the north. Judah, more or less, continued to walk in covenant. Israel did not... they were corrupt, idolatrous, and ultimately paid the price by being scattered into the nations and given up to their idols... even called "not my people." Now... there are promises to bring them back, in fact, I suspect for many reasons we could very well be them. But... Israel was still cut off from God and the covenant.... if "once saved always saved" works as the Baptists preach it... this biblical fact can't be a reality, but it is, it very much is.

But, obviously, the situation with the Israelites and God is not precisely parallel to the New Testament believer and God. For one, there was no spiritual regeneration among the Israelites. God's Spirit did not dwell in every Israelite person as He does in every genuinely born-again child of God. The average Israelite, then, did not have access to the infinite power of the Holy Spirit to live righteously before God as every true disciple of Christ does. None of the Israelites had the benefit of Christ's perfect atonement covering their sin and serving as the basis of their acceptance and relationship with God, either. They could not "come boldly before the throne of grace" as New Testament believers can and live each day knowing that "it is God who works in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure." The Israelites were not "joint-heirs with Christ" and "blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Clearly, then, the relationship of the Israelites to God and the relationship of New Testament believers to God is sufficiently different to negate the parallel you're trying to draw between them and the conclusion you suggest follows from it.

Selah.

 

[farout]

God Bless you!! This is vision of a loving heavenly father I have aswell you just help me put it into words!

.

• Thank you very much, but most of all thank The LORD CREATOR, Jesus Christ.

I have experienced that sometimes those who do not accept eternal security, have in their history done something they feel that God has let them go. Guilt, fear, and shame eat at the soul and can all but extinguish the fire of faith. God never lets go!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

.
I have experienced that sometimes those who do not accept eternal security, have in their history done something they feel that God has let them go. Guilt, fear, and shame eat at the soul and can all but extinguish the fire of faith. God never lets go!

I don't agree. The whole concept of eternal security or OSAS wasn't even a doctrine until the mid 16th century by John Calvin and for good reason. The Catholic Church in the 4th century did not believe it. The EO Church in the 11th century did not believe it. The early reformation and Martin Luthor did not believe it. It wasn't until John Calvin's doctrine on the predestination of the elect that OSAS became a thing. So why did it take over 1500 years for people to get it(OSAS) right?

 

[1John2:4]

to be chastised by god as a discipline but was I believe it was stated as chastised sore .that is for those that are God children he disciplines other wise we be fatherless. this discipline is so we obey him so sin is a big deal but not hell bound.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[1John2:4]

Being a Catholic I am not sure I am saved. Our religion dose not have this,
But I think if we try to follow Christ we will be saved

agree, repent and follow Christ ")

 

[Ken Rank]

But, obviously, the situation with the Israelites and God is not precisely parallel to the New Testament believer and God. For one, there was no spiritual regeneration among the Israelites. God's Spirit did not dwell in every Israelite person as He does in every genuinely born-again child of God. The average Israelite, then, did not have access to the infinite power of the Holy Spirit to live righteously before God as every true disciple of Christ does.
Selah.

There is no reason for me to cover the rest of your post. You believe what you believe and that is fine. I don't agree with you, that's all. I think one can come to God with a pure heart and I think one can walk away from God and that is not an indication that that person's heart was never aimed at God. That said....

2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 says that you only have an EARNEST or a "down payment" in the form of the Holy Spirit. There is more to come, MUCH MORE to come and the Spirit was given as a promissory note to guide you, teach you, comfort you... until the "more" is given. Also, to say that God treated a certain people one way and then treated us another way is saying that God has changed when He doesn't. He is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever and Messiah did not come to create a new religion, he came to perfectly walk out and call people back to a path that had been given long ago. He did not come to call the righteous, he came to call the sinners unto repentance. 1 John 3:4 defines sin, why not check a few dictionaries and see what the word righteous means?

 

[Alithis]

and that's part of the problem with you people. You think that just because someone thinks your theological stance on salvation which promotes pride and self works and frankly is God hating is ridiculous, you have to accuse them of having a favorite sin that they will not give up. No sin has any excuse, but I don't find myself being completely perfect as yourself good sir. Over the years I've overcome smoking, alcoholism and most recently binge eating. I'm still failing in some other areas, but I'm working on them. To any normal christian, what I just said makes sense, but to your fringe self loving element it makes me a heretic, because I'm not living perfectly as Christ (which is impossible). You may think you have scriptures, but given the amount of other good OSAS supporting scriptures and websites that totally refute what ever lordship/works/Self-God doctrine you follow. I think I'll be ok with what I believe. Please hurl more accusations in my general direction good sir. You seem to have that in common with someone....

been there done that ..i understand your avoiding to address the question directly .
truth is - if your sinning (some like to soften it and call it "falling" -same thing ) in a certain area of your life then you are nether FREE not repentant . because your still going the same way your still practicing the action .
and the truth is .. becaseu of what the lord Jesus has done on the cross ..you don't have to do it, Jesus set you free. and the truth is if we refuse to cease from the practice we remake it our master instead of Jesus and will perish in that practice of that unrepentant sin .

 

[aiki]

You believe what you believe and that is fine.

I believe in this matter what God's word teaches.

Also, to say that God treated a certain people one way and then treated us another way is saying that God has changed when He doesn't.

Not at all. It doesn't require God to have changed to say that He dealt with the Israelites one way and you and I another. As Scripture plainly states, God's interactions with His Chosen People was a shadow of things to come, a prefiguring of future events. (Heb. 8:4, 5; 10:1) Did God change when He sent His Son to die for your sins a mine? He didn't do this for the Old Testament Israelites. Did God change when He sent His Spirit as the Comforter and Helper to New Testament followers of Jesus? He didn't do this for the Old Testament Israelites, either. What we see in these differences isn't a shift in who God is but only in how He deals with His creatures. My Dad does not treat me as an adult as He treated me as a young child. Has my Dad changed in his fundamental nature? No. He is at his core the same guy today that he was fifty years ago. So, too, with God.

He is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever and Messiah did not come to create a new religion, he came to perfectly walk out and call people back to a path that had been given long ago.

I don't see this in Scripture. Yes, God is unchanging in His nature, but the religion of the Jews is not the religion of New Testament believers. God has established a "new convenant" (2Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:6-13; 9:15), putting away the old in the process.

why not check a few dictionaries and see what the word righteous means?

Why not? Because I know quite well what "righteous" means. Do you?

Selah.

 

[Alithis]

staff edit

this is nothing to do with whether i am perfect lol. it is what JESUS states and i assure you he is not delusional , nor am i for agreeing with him.the first thing he preached was REPENT ..it means to rethink to turn and think again and agree with God ..then follow him obediently ..
if we don't do that then we remain in rebellion to him . it wont mater if you've recited some salvation prayer .. when one believes in the heart it comes forth in their lives as obedience to god . that the evidence that it is from the heart . but if sin is continually practiced .. for example a person keeps committing adultery by looking at inappropriate content etc , and wont stop doing so even though Jesus has already set them free .. then they will perish in their sin..
turning the topic against me personally wont change the gospel and we are to obey the gospel .disobedience is rebellion and the rebellious do not enter the kingdom of god .