Once Saved, Always Saved?

Do you agree with OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved)?

  • Yes

  • No


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yeshuaslavejeff

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Then I think you grossly misinterpreted/perceived what I was saying. I don't reject anything in scripture (that's clearly written) and I've been "finding out" about what the Bible says specifically about salvation for probably 15 years or so. As, I have a certain unfortunate gift from YHWH known as scrupulosity. This is why I've been on every side of the salvation doctrine issue, because it's that simple to just not understand it. Like I said in previous posts there are 32534234 posts for OSAS 23532452345 against. So, who knows. The only thing that's simple about the Bible is the front cover and some people even have an issue with that lol!
Oh, it is simple. I understand what you said.

You still have not said anything from Scripture that is not simple.

If your so called 'gift' make things confusing/ not simple to you,
then
it is not from God.
 
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sparow

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Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22
Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.


In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

If a person is saved when he dies, he would always be saved; but who knows who is saved. Jesus said if anyone comes to Him He will not easily let go but if one examines the messages to the seven churches, five of the churches have to overcome in order to be saved; Christ's grip is slipping; it is most likely we today have more to overcome than the original churches had to overcome.
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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Oh, it is simple. I understand what you said.

You still have not said anything from Scripture that is not simple.

If your so called 'gift' make things confusing/ not simple to you,
then
it is not from God.

Satan the author of confusing and God created Satan knowing well before hand who he'd be and what he would do. It's all semantics really. Well, in the end it seems that you have the one true blessed Gospel from YHWH. Please call the mods to delete this thread and all like it, because no debate needs to be had. Also, if one finds the need to debate they are probably going to hell. I see what you mean.
 
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ldibart

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I think we all need to look at what the sacrifice does how it works to destroy sin and even explains why Christ said father forgive them for they know not what they do. Yes this was a prophecy was said for a reason not only to fulfill Prophecy

The Sacrifice:
When God speaks he does so from his very nature, not him deciding hmmm "If you do wrong against me i suppose ill do this"! ..his very nature, his very perfect nature.. his natural law inside himself says "the wages of sin is death" this is just a fact, period ..Adam had full knowledge that he would die if he ate ..Eve as well ..they knew the rules ..
God loved us , he removed the curse of sin this has been told enough that those reading this probably have heard of it, but how does his death remove the curse and sin ,because he just said so or he said this will cover it?

if he could just say so, then why would he need the sacrifice for blood? why not declare I do not need blood now? Here is the why God needs a sacrifice and what was required in this sacrifice and the reader will see the clear reasoning ( I hope) what was needed ,we need someone not cursed under Adam ie original sin so he can have no sin

..all in Adam die, does not matter how good you think you are ... the wages of sin IS death .. but God also is love and wants to show mercy and forgiveness BUT,He cannot break his own nature or natural law! Do you understand to go against your own nature a perfect being would in actuality be committing a sin against himself?

it is a crime against himself to not have full payment for sin Do you understand this God cannot simply forgive everyone for all time against his very nature the nature that says the wages of sin is death!

..what to do? HOW to fulfill his original law and make right the wrong and injustice committed against him, the perfect judge?
Now comes Christ "the word"..he is born, not out of carnal love making, but places himself into a virgin woman who was from the bloodline of King David....this action fulfills the required line (not getting into why that line and all that entails) but it fulfills promises of the old testament and allows for a perfect flesh sacrifice so this takes care of the flesh part of it, a human without original sin to be born... so his flesh can make the sacrifice .

.but still why a sacrifice ? how does this actually work to remove sin? it does this naturally and logically by Gods own nature and natural laws ...but the value of the sacrifice has got to be worth all the sin that is in the world and as we shall see all the natural evil that inspires sin as well..this sacrifice has to have a value higher than all beings creating this sin to make a perfect balance .

God is a perfect judge and has to have full payment made .. and this means part of this sacrifice cannot be just a man without original sin because he would be still just a man though a sinless one and maybe can die for another man as an even trade though I doubt it since that man is created.

If you think about it this too would not be a fair trade would it, who is man to trade for another mans life with out an injustice occurring from the crime of putting an innocent man to death in the very trade off , and besides all sin is against GOD and the one who has had injustice done to him is GOD!

all sin committed is against GOD so he needs payment to balance the crimes out ..not because he chooses like "I think this will do ,however maybe I will make 2 lashes be payment", it is a natural repayment that is in his nature to be made ..SIN = Death and that's it
Because the damage that was done was to God, only God can be the one that would know what is payment enough only God would know how someone must act and behave and fulfill all requiremetns first!

So God is the only one that could EVER make this sacrifice and can take back what he knows is complete justice for crimes committed against him ..he and he alone knows what he needs to cover this payment ...and what he expected in the fulfilling of laws

The sacrifice cannot be a created being! A created being, when all sin has been committed against God would not be acceptable .created beings cannot be worshiped they are the creature a creature is not a good enough sacrifice for all sin for all time ,since God is of no end he fits this , he is worth the total of creation and infinitely ..And the word was made flesh! A perfect SELF CREATED being ..fully complete spiritually and physically!

God came as Christ, the word was made flesh Is in the Book of John and made flesh by God himself In the beginning was the Word and the word was with GOd and the word WAS GOD! so.. the word IS God made flesh, he would fulfill all the laws of his own nature required to be perfect. he alone knows all and everyone of those laws as he has perfect knowledge of what is right and what is wrong and is therefore fully aware when a misdeed is done and when it needs to be repaid.


NOW the Creator took on flesh ..sinless and perfect .. as shown biblically this will show clearly why God can sacrifice himself and that very crime will be naturally dissolved by ONLY God doing the sacrifice! first lets talk about sins role in this sacrifice. this is where it gets really creative and awesome hope you are still with me here.


The only thing in the universe that could sin against Gods natural law of "the wages of sin is death" at this point ..is ..SIN, coming into contact with the perfect being GOD whom this Law flowed naturally out of ,this gives sin inspired by evil in mans heart an opportunity to commit sin against Gods very nature. to break a command of the highest sort, sin is not allowed by law by Gods law to kill the perfect,.. it/they did just that!


..through sinful man CHRIST was put to death on the cross..YET Because Christ Proclaimed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"! this was a prophecy fullfilled from the old testament these words were to be uttered ..but why? Now the point is revealed SO NO SIN can stay with man and on man including the killing of Christ! This means that the total package all of sin is put on and against Christ here is how sin is now judged!

the wages of "SIN" is death ..Christ had no sin ..this is a breach in the nature of god ..sin committed an ultimate crime through evil in mans heart and killed not just someone without sin but the Creator of all things! the eternal Creator, you could do no greater sin ever than this.

This sin was great enough for the very essence of sin and evil that inspired it to be judged through the power of his sacrifice!! Not because of "oh I think this will be adequate payback for what I suffered" he received natural logical payments for what was done to him and it is shown through what gifts he received they match perfectly what should have been gained!

Christ was put to death when he was perfect, so he was raised from death! Now to be fully compensated for that crime of dying he received an immortal body! this is fair and just wouldnt you agree?! ..raised up from the grave defeating death forever which should have never taken him and hell which he preached to captives was now handed over to him, Christ earned this! Hell had no rights on him and as shown in the bible the keys of hell and death were given to Christ this fits to further!!

Add to the point the prophet and king,king David stated you will not leave me in hell nor will thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption. Paul explained that kind David did die and did see corruption but being a prophet of god spoke of Christ .. Christ received all the things he did because he EARNED it, heck he even had to earn his very name!! 2nd Philipians 2.5 (verse at bottom of page ) he fulfilled laws of his own nature without going against his very own will and being! Now Christ has gained power over sin! he can say I forgive you forever and take away sin because he earned this right!

when breaking down this sacrifice there was no other way to reconcile mankind with God but its still not even ..even though hell is was brought into captivity and death

So sin is judged to death in Christ and Christ now represents the Tree of life and we must take of him to live!, "whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have eternal life" .. by one man, Adam, sin and death ..also by one man Christ, removal of sin and eternal life ..a complete picture and a genius sacrificial move ..oh wait what about the evil that can inspire people to sin?

Ephesians 4:9 What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

The whole universe needed to be filled as seen it had and still has a natural lack this lack will be filled in time through Christ Jesus this is another aspect of the sacrifice to fill this void to make fully complete the whole universe and which would require God. this evil will be brought under Christ as a natural part of his sacrifice . fully jaw dropping plan executed with perfection!




we only need to pray to Christ Jesus for forgiveness of sin and to enter our hearts and life .. Jesus knows how to work in us just pray and go about your life happy and forgiven if you understood the above then understand Jesus can forgive us all with just his word he took sin and can judge it to death with a mere word!



2nd Philipians 2.5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As shown above even his very name was earned ..this key point shows that no one can ever cry foul about what attributes he received for his sacrifice of sin for us!

He does not expect us to earn anything he went through a great battle for us that all in him are forgiven because he says so and if he so chooses ..any time he wants ..we are in him and he loves us.
 
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aiki

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Believe what you wish, at the end of the day life isn't as simple as what ever bubble you blow up for yourself everyday.

I never said life was simple.

The analogy that was concocted was lazy and doesn't even compare to the situation with the Bible and salvation.

I disagree. I think it was a very apt analogy, which is why I offered it. So far, you haven't actually explained why it "doesn't even compare." You seem to think merely being critical of it constitutes an explanation. It doesn't.

I liked the subtle or not so subtle insult. Calling my lazy doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid, but deep down in your heart that's probably what you meant.

I said what I meant. Nothing more, nothing less.

Just say I'm an idiot, it's obvious that's how you feel.

Is it really? I think the only one to whom it's "obvious" is you. Not much I can do about your insecurities...

Don't worry though, I'm steadily praying for YHWH to soften your heart and teach you how to help people for his name sake.

Well, I'd thank you if I thought He was likely to answer your prayer. But you've been very unreasonably critical of His word and this does not, I think, put you in a good position to receive any positive answers from Him.

Selah.
 
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Honoluluwindow

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I'm not saying I heard from God, I just wanted to add my two cents. I was saved, lost then SAVED AGAIN. Because I had to say the sinners prayer again. I wouldn't have to if I was already saved!

It is nothing to do with emotions. I'm sorry, you tried to be nice with me. I am just peed off by all the self-righteous people on here. I may be a new Christian and struggle to quote scripture and stay faithful to Jesus and whatever because of the demonic torment I get. But that doesn't give others any right to talk down to me like I know nothing.
No you weren't saved then lost.
 
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J.j. k.

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The real issue about OSAS is, are you genuinely saved in the first place? If a person can fall away, and leave their salvation, reject Christ, deny Jesus is Gods One and only Son, that according to Hebrews it is not only impossible to renew that person, but they have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, and that can not be forgiven. Maybe it should be Once Saved, Never to be Saved Again. Which would be OSNSA. A person better make real sure they do not turn against the Holy Spirit!

Once the Holy Spirit resides in the believer, as the Holy Spirit is a deposit of a guarantee of our salvation, then the question must be asked, if the Holy Spirit leaves a person he once resided in, will or can he come back again? I think Hebrews tells us the answer is no. By what I understand Paul to say, that the Holy Spirit comes into the life of a believer as an assurance to the Born Again, Saved, Follower, Believer on Jesus Christ that God Himself holds us and keeps us eternally secure, and no one (not even me, means no one) can pluck (remove) them from the eternal safe keeping of Creator Gods hand.

The keeping of a persons eternal soul does not depend on man being sinless after accepting Jesus Christ and His offer of salvation. The understanding I have of Eternal security, is based on Gods ability to hold which I have given to Him, my soul. When God says no one can be removed from His safe keeping, that is His Covenant to me. God sees me when I make a plea to save me, and I acknowledge I am a sinner and lost without Him, and I commit to be a Follower of Jesus Christ, that means God and I enter into a Covenant which can not be broken. God holds that Covenant and seals the Covenant with giving us his Holy Spirit in our life. That Covenant can not be broken, He is holding that as binding and never can God go back on Word. God knows my frame is made of dust, and my being has a sinful nature, and even knowing that God still holds our Covenant that he can not let go, it is solidly under His protection and safe keeping. even when I sin, He keeps me.

My wife and i have four adult children. No matter what they do or say, even reject us, curse the day they were born, disown us, they will be forever and always our children, nothing can change that. The same way it is when we become His child through Jesus Christ. No one can pluck us from our father Gods hand.

God Bless you!! This is vision of a loving heavenly father I have aswell you just help me put it into words!
 
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ldibart

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I'm not saying I heard from God, I just wanted to add my two cents. I was saved, lost then SAVED AGAIN. Because I had to say the sinners prayer again. I wouldn't have to if I was already saved!

It is nothing to do with emotions. I'm sorry, you tried to be nice with me. I am just peed off by all the self-righteous people on here. I may be a new Christian and struggle to quote scripture and stay faithful to Jesus and whatever because of the demonic torment I get. But that doesn't give others any right to talk down to me like I know nothing.
Christ Promises he will complete the works he started ..in you and me an all believers . This is a Promise if you stress out and worry it gets you know where you get down on yourself and give up and come back and rinse and repeat ..his yolk is easy NOT painfully hard ..as you go along in your walk with Christ at some point just think about letting go not giving up and doing what you want just let go and relax and know we are not sprinting and worrying about gee if i do not stop this I go to hell ...pray for what you do wrong and do not ponder on that wrong ...just live a good life and he will do as he promised and work it out of you.. he is your life because you gave it to him and.. fruits will come ..do we know what those are and what they look like for you or for me ..perhaps you will gain patience or be helpful to others ..do not worry though we all grow at our own pace and on his time not ours .
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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I never said life was simple.



I disagree. I think it was a very apt analogy, which is why I offered it. So far, you haven't actually explained why it "doesn't even compare." You seem to think merely being critical of it constitutes an explanation. It doesn't.



I said what I meant. Nothing more, nothing less.



Is it really? I think the only one to whom it's "obvious" is you. Not much I can do about your insecurities...



Well, I'd thank you if I thought He was likely to answer your prayer. But you've been very unreasonably critical of His word and this does not, I think, put you in a good position to receive any positive answers from Him.

Selah.

LoL. You might be my favorite person on here. You claim to not insult me by insulting me and than when confronted you insult again. Very smooth. I don't have to offer you anything at this moment and time. I'm critical of his word, because this very thread exist. Now, that is simple. Perhaps instead of subtly insulting me (or directly now) you could spend your time praying for my understanding? bas manhehal sa menah
 
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morse86

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There is no reason for this topic to go past 16 pages. A lot of "world philosophers" here...but has anyone consulted the word of God instead for the answer?

Either Jesus died on the cross or he didn't, which one is it? He died once, not multiple times.

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Christ took our place on the cross, he took all of God's wraith. He did all of the work. He went to hell and was resurrected. He overcame death. He did all that so that you may believe, not in your own righteousness, but his (Jesus) righteousness.

John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Once saved, always saved!

John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

EVERLASTING. Not temporary. Everlasting means FOREVER.
 
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ldibart

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If a person is saved when he dies, he would always be saved; but who knows who is saved. Jesus said if anyone comes to Him He will not easily let go but if one examines the messages to the seven churches, five of the churches have to overcome in order to be saved; Christ's grip is slipping; it is most likely we today have more to overcome then the original churches had to overcome.

Yes these are messages to the Churches and should be looked at as such ..is it saying that if the church is removed that all its members are now hell bound? NO its intent was not meaning this .
 
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VanillaSunflowers

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I never said life was simple.



I disagree. I think it was a very apt analogy, which is why I offered it. So far, you haven't actually explained why it "doesn't even compare." You seem to think merely being critical of it constitutes an explanation. It doesn't.



I said what I meant. Nothing more, nothing less.



Is it really? I think the only one to whom it's "obvious" is you. Not much I can do about your insecurities...



Well, I'd thank you if I thought He was likely to answer your prayer. But you've been very unreasonably critical of His word and this does not, I think, put you in a good position to receive any positive answers from Him.

Selah.
That is a great deal of hubris to imagine you can speak for God and whether or not someone who prays deserve his answer.

It's shocking.
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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That is a great deal of hubris to imagine you can speak for God and whether or not someone who prays deserve his answer.

It's shocking.

Well, she/he is right after all. This one posses the knowledge of all things, so why doubt him/her on this. I don't know what's wrong with being critical of something you believe in, as it doesn't mean that I don't believe. What if people from other faiths did such a thing. Might be more christian converts, but that's me just thinking and as an american I'm kind of allergic to that. Thanks for sticking up for me though.
 
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aiki

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LoL. You might be my favorite person on here.

Uh...great...

You claim to not insult me by insulting me and than when confronted you insult again. Very smooth.

You certainly seem determined to be insulted. That doesn't require any "smoothness" on my part...

I don't have to offer you anything at this moment and time.

No you don't have to. But, then, your silence concedes my point.

I'm critical of his word, because this very thread exist.

As I explained, His word isn't the problem, the readers of it are.

Perhaps instead of subtly insulting me (or directly now) you could spend your time praying for my understanding?

Perhaps instead of seeing insult where there really is none, you could think more carefully about the claims you make about God's word.

Selah.
 
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aiki

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That is a great deal of hubris to imagine you can speak for God and whether or not someone who prays deserve his answer.

It's shocking.

Maybe before you jump to assumptions and conclusions you should ask what a person actually means and why they wrote what they wrote. You might find yourself a good deal less shocked.

Selah.
 
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aiki

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I don't know what's wrong with being critical of something you believe in, as it doesn't mean that I don't believe.

There is nothing wrong with being critical of something you believe. Being unreasonably critical of it - as I think you are - is another thing, however.

Selah. (I'm a he, by the way.)
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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Uh...great...



You certainly seem determined to be insulted. That doesn't require any "smoothness" on my part...



No you don't have to. But, then, your silence concedes my point.



As I explained, His word isn't the problem, the readers of it are.



Perhaps instead of seeing insult where there really is none, you could think more carefully about the claims you make about God's word.

Selah.

I'm not determined to to feel insulted, but that doesn't change the intention of what was said. Well, maybe his word isn't the problem, I don't have enough evidence to come to that conclusion since it is the Holy Spirits job to lead to all truth. I would presume that would also include the matter of salvation. I think carefully about everything I do/say. Just because you disagree with doesn't make this any more/less so. So, does this mean you won't pray for me? Am I not good enough that even your extremely pious and holy attempts wont reach heaven for my sake? Also, I'm not conceding any point, this isn't really a debate as much as it is a flat out disagreement. I've come to the wisdom that I can't change your opinion far before that doozy of an analogy came along. I'd save it though, maybe someone will think it's outstanding? I'm still praying for you though.
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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There is nothing wrong with being critical of something you believe. Being unreasonably critical of it - as I think you are - is another thing, however.

Selah. (I'm a he, by the way.)

Ah, a glimmer of light can be seen. You think I'am. Very good for YOU to think/believe that way. Since you know whether or not God can hear my prayers I'll just have to accept you got this one right too. Are you sure that your not Jesus?
 
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DoubtfulSalvation

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Maybe before you jump to assumptions and conclusions you should ask what a person actually means and why they wrote what they wrote. You might find yourself a good deal less shocked.

Selah.

Why don't you post it plainly and stop being as secretive and confusing as this Bible that I overly criticize. Praying for me yet?
 
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aiki

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I think carefully about everything I do/say.

Well, I guess my standard of careful thinking and yours are very different. Your criticism of God doing a bad job of communicating clearly the truth of the Gospel, of salvation, as far as I can see, does not arise from what I would call careful thought. This doesn't mean you're stupid or an idiot, only that you have not been precise and subtle in your analysis of the problem.

So, does this mean you won't pray for me?

Of course not. Disagreement is not a reason to exclude someone from my prayers.

Am I not good enough that even your extremely pious and holy attempts wont reach heaven for my sake?

:nowords:

I'm still praying for you though.

:ok:

Selah.
 
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