Once Saved, Always Saved?

[DoubtfulSalvation]

the problem here is .. you assume a person born of the spirit of god would do such things to lode salvation and you assume you have salvation.. we do but by faith .. by faith we are saved but that is calling that which is not as though it already is .. (the definition of faith ) but the truth is no one receives the salvation of their soul in actuality until Christ returns -we are placing our faith in him to save us when he does and it is he who has laid out the conditions of that salvation which he, through no work of ours ,had provided . its best to follow HIS instructions obediently-those who don't .. are not his .they are rebellious .they remain at enmity with him..
so another problem is .. many who claim to be those "once saved always saved folks "are not his at all .

by the way i bash my fingers on a regular basis and never let out a slew of profanity ..

I'm sure you will probably deny this, but you believe in sinless perfection. I also believe the bible doesn't agree with the idea that salvation is future event. The word faith is thrown around in your post, but you really believe in works salvation. The holy spirit is said to seal us at the event of salvation. I'm glad you are more pious than me and do nothing wrong. I have been known to have issues with that before. You also didn't make salvation sound any less confusing,convoluted in your response. Your belief in salvation makes the Bible seem ridiculous and lacking in critical content.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

scriptural reference..? mans opinions dont carry weight

You need a scriptural reference to understand that man has no place in throwing someone in hell? If you can't get past that concept, than I don't think any amount of references can help you. I agree mans opinion carry no weight, this is one of the reasons why I disagree with your distorted/convoluted version of salvation.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Being a Catholic I am not sure I am saved. Our religion dose not have this,
But I think if we try to follow Christ we will be saved

Let's look at a passage such as Ephesians 2.8-9:

'For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.'

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Let's look at a passage such as Ephesians 2.8-9:

'For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.'

So, it's not a future event that requires sinless perfectionism?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

EVERLASTING. Not temporary. Everlasting means FOREVER.

And if someone no longer "believeth in Him" perish then?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If a person is saved when he dies, he would always be saved; but who knows who is saved. Jesus said if anyone comes to Him He will not easily let go but if one examines the messages to the seven churches, five of the churches have to overcome in order to be saved; Christ's grip is slipping; it is most likely we today have more to overcome than the original churches had to overcome.

Pretty good response. (yes, it is much more dangerous today to live, than in one of the original assemblies; it was 'dangerous' enough for them - many were executed)

I don't believe Christ's grip ever slips. HE simply does like HE told those who are married to an unbeliever - "IF an unbeliever wants to leave (a marriage) , just let them go - don't try to hold them back"... very hard to accept sometimes; but directly YHWH'S WORD, and TRUE.
Like wise, if someone turns away from , to leave, CHRIST, like an unbelieving spouse,
HE lets them go. It is NOT HIS GRIP THAT SLIPPED. HE NEVER SLIPS.

 

[pureinheart]

OP- The word says that we are 'sealed' with the Spirit... a seal back in those days could not be broken... which is not even an implication, it is what it is.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

OP- The word says that we are 'sealed' with the Spirit... a seal back in those days could not be broken... which is not even an implication, it is what it is.

I have a feeling that most people like the OP have that either cut out from the Bible or heavily blotted out with pen. I think of salvation like marriage on earth. There is no leaving or one giving up on the other until the end. Of course people on earth do get divorced, but you get what I mean.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

OP- The word says that we are 'sealed' with the Spirit... a seal back in those days could not be broken... which is not even an implication, it is what it is.

As in : ?
PHILLIPS
And here is the staggering thing—that in all which will one day belong to him we have been promised a share (since we were long ago destined for this by the one who achieves his purposes by his sovereign will), so that we, as the first to put our confidence in Christ, may bring praise to his glory! And you too trusted him, when you heard the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. And after you gave your confidence to him you were, so to speak, stamped with the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of purchase, until the day when God completes the redemption of what he has paid for as his own; and that will again be to the praise of his glory.

 

[W_McCarthy]

1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith

As for "believers" that fall away or walk away or "hop out of his hand"...

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I used to be on the fence about eternal security, because I agree that there are many verses that seem to say that you can walk away from salvation by your own will. But if that were true then what do you do with these verses ^
...they would no doubt have continued with us...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Notice in this ONE CHAPTER ALL of the aspects of those who are truly saved:
(ALL confirmed elsewhere, often, and in harmony with all SCRIPTURE)
See IF you have EVER , EVER, seen this in person anywhere else.

Ephesians 1
Ephesians 1Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

1 From: Sha’ul, by God’s will an emissary of the Messiah Yeshua

To: God’s people living in Ephesus, that is, those who are trusting in the Messiah Yeshua:

2 Grace to you and shalom from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.

3 Praised be Adonai, Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who in the Messiah has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heaven. 4 In the Messiah he chose us in love before the creation of the universe to be holy and without defect in his presence. 5 He determined in advance that through Yeshua the Messiah we would be his sons — in keeping with his pleasure and purpose — 6 so that we would bring him praise commensurate with the glory of the grace he gave us through the Beloved One.

7 In union with him, through the shedding of his blood, we are set free — our sins are forgiven; this accords with the wealth of the grace 8 he has lavished on us. In all his wisdom and insight 9 he has made known to us his secret plan, which by his own will he designed beforehand in connection with the Messiah 10 and will put into effect when the time is ripe — his plan to place everything in heaven and on earth under the Messiah’s headship.

11 Also in union with him we were given an inheritance, we who were picked in advance according to the purpose of the One who effects everything in keeping with the decision of his will, 12 so that we who earlier had put our hope in the Messiah would bring him praise commensurate with his glory.

13 Furthermore, you who heard the message of the truth, the Good News offering you deliverance, and put your trust in the Messiah were sealed by him with the promised Ruach HaKodesh, 14 who guarantees our inheritance until we come into possession of it and thus bring him praise commensurate with his glory.

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your trust in the Lord Yeshua and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you. In my prayers I keep asking 17 the God of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, the glorious Father, to give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you will have full knowledge of him. 18 I pray that he will give light to the eyes of your hearts, so that you will understand the hope to which he has called you, what rich glories there are in the inheritance he has promised his people, 19 and how surpassingly great is his power working in us who trust him. It works with the same mighty strength he used 20 when he worked in the Messiah to raise him from the dead and seat him at his right hand in heaven, 21 far above every ruler, authority, power, dominion or any other name that can be named either in the ‘olam hazeh or in the ‘olam haba. 22 Also, he has put all things under his feet[a] and made him head over everything for the Messianic Community, 23 which is his body, the full expression of him who fills all creation.
Footnotes:

Ephesians 1:22 Psalm 8:7(6)

 

[Alithis]

I'm sure you will probably deny this, but you believe in sinless perfection. I also believe the bible doesn't agree with the idea that salvation is future event. The word faith is thrown around in your post, but you really believe in works salvation. The holy spirit is said to seal us at the event of salvation. I'm glad you are more pious than me and do nothing wrong. I have been known to have issues with that before. You also didn't make salvation sound any less confusing,convoluted in your response. Your belief in salvation makes the Bible seem ridiculous and lacking in critical content.

really? what works am i doing to be saved? and what works did Paul speak against ? the works he warned against were the works of sacrificing bulls and circumcision.. and i practicing those to be saved ? nope .

But works of righteousness ,to love ,to care, to do unto others etc . to heal the sick ,preach the gospel,drive out demons baptism people .. against these things there is no law and thus no transgression in doing them . the sons of the household do what the sons of the house hold do . they don't work to be sons they work because they are sons . but those who do not do the will of the father are those who are not sons .

and why bring up sinless perfection ?
the scripture does not say we wont ever sin .. but it very clearly says we will not and cannot continue to do so . it also says if a person does continue to "practice " sin that they are not of god but of the devil (and those who go back to being of the devil making sin their master again are not of god and will not be with him in his kingdom ).. its says this is how we know which are which .. those who 'Do" unrighteousness are of the devil and those who "DO " righteousness are of God . sin is not something a person is .. it is something a person Does .

so what sin is it that you continue to do which you desire to justify continuing in ?

 

[Alithis]

.

 

[Alithis]

You need a scriptural reference to understand that man has no place in throwing someone in hell? If you can't get past that concept, than I don't think any amount of references can help you. I agree mans opinion carry no weight, this is one of the reasons why I disagree with your distorted/convoluted version of salvation.

i can give you scripture for everything im saying because thats where it comes from if scripture is distorted then you need to rethink what your listening to .

and what sin it it that your continuing in which you wish to excuse ?

 

[rmacfarland]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

 

[rmacfarland]

Jesus healed snd blessed many people, He often said afterwards, "Sin no more, lest a worst thing come upon you.".
He also said, "Those who love Me are those who keep my commandments".
Even Paul said, "Do we continue in sin, certainly not."
That being said...I think it is also sin to condemn others, so I need to consider my own salvation.....not go around pointing fingers.

 

[Alithis]

Jesus healed snd blessed many people, He often said afterwards, "Sin no more, lest a worst thing come upon you.".
He also said, "Those who love Me are those who keep my commandments".
Even Paul said, "Do we continue in sin, certainly not."
That being said...I think it is also sin to condemn others, so I need to consider my own salvation.....not go around pointing fingers.

i don't believe any one here has condemned any one else

 

[GotJesusRomans109]

Exactly, how is Judas any different from any other Christian who falls away?

Your definition on whom is Christian and who is counterfeit needs revising...
The so called Chrsitians that fall away were never really Christians as the bible gives witness of this in 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[GotJesusRomans109]

Jesus healed snd blessed many people, He often said afterwards, "Sin no more, lest a worst thing come upon you.".
He also said, "Those who love Me are those who keep my commandments".
Even Paul said, "Do we continue in sin, certainly not."
That being said...I think it is also sin to condemn others, so I need to consider my own salvation.....not go around pointing fingers.

I believe all this means is we reap what we sow. and if we continue to sin after we have given the strength to overcome the last ailment then the next wave will be stronger. Galatians 6:7

 

[GotJesusRomans109]

I think the problem lies in how we define "once saved, always saved." You are saved in which terms?

Faith and Faith alone.
The works of faith is simply if you continue believing.
Those who overcome is the simplicity in believing (by faith).
and we know that without God this is impossible John 15:1-5
Salvation is of God and God alone and Jesus is that author of our faith beginning and ending because He always finishes what He started.
Yes, first "WE" must make our election sure that we may not be a counterfeit Christian thinking we are saved but never were (because deep down they really didnt have faith) Those that fall away were never Christians (saved) according to 1 jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Many are called but few are chosen and we also know that wolves in sheeps clothing are in The body of Christ midst False (or better sid counterfeit) prophets (preachers).
So the parameters of an elect or chosen Christian by God and NOT of ourselves Falls under "Again" *Faith* alone and not of works.
Notice I never said and I am not ever saying or condoning a fruitless righteous/religious and dutiful acts of the fruit of the spirit. Because we cant earn salvation. But I would agree that that wicked servant will lose His reward in Heaven other than salvation.