Which Church is THE Church?

dqhall

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Jesus only built one Church and it is 2000 years old. The Catholic Church has spread his message to every nation on earth. 1.2 billion strong and growing by the 10s of millions each year.
Jesus was preaching in synagogues until he was banned. He preached from a boat, on a mountain side, in people's homes and in a temple of Jerusalem. He did not have a church to preach in. He said his body was his temple. The rabbis of his day had synagogues. The chief priests had their sacrificial altar and temple in Jerusalem. The son of man had no place to lay his head. He and his disciples were in a camp in the garden of Gethsemane the night of his arrest.

The Protestants and Orthodox trace their heritage to Jesus and eleven of the twelve disciples. These are close to 50% of the global Christian population according to the Pew Research Centers.

The Catholic Church does not have many in North Korea. The government imprisoned those who tried to preach to all nations. There are not many Catholics in Saudi Arabia and other sharia law nations. The Saudis do not allow their citizens to leave Islam under threat of imprisonment, torture, deportation and execution. Foreign born preachers were quickly deported.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Good point. So when two believers teach contradictory doctrines, one of them is not being led by the Holy Spirit.

Does the Church led by the Holy Spirit teach any false doctrines?
That's not a question I can answer, not knowing the individual cases.
 
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W2L

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Jesus was preaching in synagogues until he was banned. He preached from a boat, on a mountain side, in people's homes and in a temple of Jerusalem. He did not have a church to preach in.

The Lord preaches in my heart. Its so delightful, I cannot contain the joy I feel right now. My heart dances and my soul rests in liberty. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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They are deemed to be IDENTICAL by the Orthodox. And no, the Bible teaches glorification, not theosis.

I don't have time to read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been addressed.

Just in case anyone is misunderstanding, we do not teach that we will EVER be, or even fully know, what God is in His Essence. The Orthodox Church does NOT teach that we "become gods".

We can become LIKE God/Christ ... and achieve union with Him through purification and illumination. But we remain, always and forever, creatures, and He is and always has been the Divine God.

There can be no confusion, merging, and we do not become God Himself.

You may find teaching that causes confusion, because of not understanding how the words are meant. But we know full well that we do NOT become as God Himself.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I would make the observation that regardless of where it appears it is just that. Argument bait. Or, propaganda .

The OP said it was meant for General Theology. What happens here, well ...
 
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PapaZoom

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In my opinion there is the universal Christian church an within that you have the original true and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church. The original Church. Others are christian but they are not Catholic Christians wth the fullness of the Apostolic Succession.

In other words, Protestant baptism is acceptable and their prayers are heard and accepted, however they do not receive the transubstantiation and the true presence of Christ in their Holy Communion. For them communion is a symbol of Christ's body and blood but not the actual flesh and blood.

Also Priests are blessed with the Apostolic succession, meaning there is an unbroken line of Apostles from the original twelve who passed down knowledge first hand from person to person from then until now. That was broken when the others left the Church.

So like I said, we are all Christians but Roman Catholics and maybe Orthodox have the front row seats in the Church proper. They are the original Church founded by the Disciples. The rest were founded by regular men.

In Transubstantiation, when does the wafer and the wine become the actual blood and body of Christ? In the mouth, throat, or stomach? Or is it even before that?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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That's not a question I can answer, not knowing the individual cases.

Rethinking your question...which was something like: does the church led by the Holy Spirit ever teach false doctrine.

I suppose it can; only b/c at times leadership may not be submitting to the Holy Spirit. Leadership is human and subject to sin...see Peter's sin in the book of Galations and others were led astray by his joining in on that sin of returning to practices of the LAW. We can extrapolate from this instance as well as other Scripture verses. Leaders too need to repent and repent publicly at times.
I was expecting to need examples of sin within a Spirit led church before rendering my opinion, but I believe I can answer as I have.
We cannot fall prey however to the idea that entire church bodies are saved or unsaved...Spirit led or otherwise. It is individuals God saves and He alone does a true measure of the hearts of mankind. He gives His Spiritual gifts in varying proportions to each Christian as well and so each man's spiritual works will be manifested differently...so also then with salvation...that is, some look saved but are not while some look condemned but are not and still further some are obviously saved.
 
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rockytopva

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I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in his time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Seven generalized church congregations making one whole church. Which church is THE church? Why all of them. All bound together by what we call the Nicene Creed. And all have their virtues and faults as well.
 
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samir

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Because of my experience in marketing, I saw that coming.
The Church is the entire body of believers.
Not a prophesy about the RCC.

“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them” (Matthew 18:20)

Why did you omit the first part of the passage and quote it out of context?

Corrupters and false interpreters of the Gospel quote the last words, and lay aside the former ones, remembering part, and craftily suppressing part: as they themselves are separated from the Church, so they cut off the substance of one section. For the Lord, when He would urge unanimity and peace upon His disciples, said, I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth touching anything that you shall ask, it shall be given you by my Father which is in heaven. For wheresoever two or three are gathered together in my name, I am with them; showing that most is given, not to the multitude, but to the unanimity of those that pray. If, He says, two of you shall agree on earth: He placed agreement first; He has made the concord of peace a prerequisite; He taught that we should agree firmly and faithfully. But how can he agree with any one who does not agree with the body of the Church itself, and with the universal brotherhood? How can two or three be assembled together in Christ's name, who, it is evident, are separated from Christ and from His Gospel? (Cyprian, Treatise 1 On the Unity of the Church, Paragraph 12)
 
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rturner76

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In Transubstantiation, when does the wafer and the wine become the actual blood and body of Christ? In the mouth, throat, or stomach? Or is it even before that?
From my understanding it's when the Priest finishes doing his thing
 
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throughfiierytrial

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In Transubstantiation, when does the wafer and the wine become the actual blood and body of Christ? In the mouth, throat, or stomach? Or is it even before that?
Not good to joke about such things...I do think their practice lacks Biblical support, but as a Christian and a Lutheran I find it offensive to hear or read such jokes. God is all powerful and I John 6 says unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood and the scoffers scoffed (something like you did here). However, Jesus said His/these words are spirit. He goes on to liken the act of eating and drinking His flesh and blood with the miracle of ascension and we all as Christians accept that Christ as God Almighty did and does miracles. See I Corinthians 11 (the chapter covering the Lord's Supper) and read it carefully, especially where Paul writes (vss 27-29): Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
The fact that one ought to examine himself before the Lord's Super, that fact alone, shows it is a very serious and somber practice.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in his time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Seven generalized church congregations making one whole church. Which church is THE church? Why all of them. All bound together by what we call the Nicene Creed. And all have their virtues and faults as well.
There were more than seven churches we know and the church is referred to as the Bride of Christ...the number 7 is used or thought of as completion and here as the whole...for lack of a better way to put it. God is speaking to all true believers in those Revelation chapters...if the sin fits you, wear it or rather fix it.
 
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PapaZoom

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From my understanding it's when the Priest finishes doing his thing

If it's the case that the elements actually become the body and blood of Jesus (and it's not simply a spiritual thing) then it would be easy to test via DNA.
 
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PapaZoom

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Not good to joke about such things...I do think their practice lacks Biblical support, but as a Christian and a Lutheran I find it offensive to hear or read such jokes. God is all powerful and I John 6 says unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood and the scoffers scoffed (something like you did here). However, Jesus said His/these words are spirit. He goes on to liken the act of eating and drinking His flesh and blood with the miracle of ascension and we all as Christians accept that Christ as God Almighty did and does miracles. See I Corinthians 11 (the chapter covering the Lord's Supper) and read it carefully, especially where Paul writes (vss 27-29): Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
The fact that one ought to examine himself before the Lord's Super, that fact alone, shows it is a very serious and somber practice.

I'm asking a serious question and you are assuming I'm making a joke without even knowing.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Not good to joke about such things...I do think their practice lacks Biblical support, but as a Christian and a Lutheran I find it offensive to hear or read such jokes.
@PapaZoom can respond on his own behalf but I don't believe it was a joke; it is a serious question. When does transubstantiation happen? One answer was when the Priest is finished with his "thing" but he is a young Catholic so I won't take that as a final answer. And I don't believe Lutheran's accept that Catholic teaching (as a rule) so your own answer is also discounted. Maybe a more learned Catholic can answer the question.......
 
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civilwarbuff

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@PapaZoom can respond on his own behalf but I don't believe it was a joke; it is a serious question. When does transubstantiation happen? One answer was when the Priest is finished with his "thing" but he is a young Catholic so I won't take that as a final answer. And I don't believe Lutheran's accept that Catholic teaching (as a rule) so your own answer is also discounted. Maybe a more learned Catholic can answer the question.......
Understand I have seen this question asked many times and the answers have always been, at best, inadequate. I would love to hear something substantial and meaningful........
 
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rturner76

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@PapaZoom can respond on his own behalf but I don't believe it was a joke; it is a serious question. When does transubstantiation happen? One answer was when the Priest is finished with his "thing" but he is a young Catholic so I won't take that as a final answer. And I don't believe Lutheran's accept that Catholic teaching (as a rule) so your own answer is also discounted. Maybe a more learned Catholic can answer the question.......
Consecrate that's the word for it. The Priest Consecrates the bread and wine and it becomes the body and blood
 
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civilwarbuff

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Consecrate that's the word for it. The Priest Consecrates the bread and wine and it becomes the body and blood
So you believe your are actually eating flesh and drinking blood? I know you are a new Catholic but think about this......
 
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rturner76

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Understand I have seen this question asked many times and the answers have always been, at best, inadequate. I would love to hear something substantial and meaningful........
It's a mystery of faith.
I've hears it's an accident that it looks like bread and wine
I've heard Christ's body and blood consist of bread and wine

This is the one I like the best:
When you think of someone, they are present in your mind. As we think of Christ we are filled with his presence. This is also true for the Priest as he calls on Christ, he is holding the bread and wine, they are present with him, Christ is also present with him and the bread and wine that he is holding. This is how Christ enters the bread and wine and transforms it.
 
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rturner76

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So you believe your are actually eating flesh and drinking blood? I know you are a new Catholic but think about this......
Yes, it's not human blood and flesh though it's heavenly
 
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