Which Church is THE Church?

[Gregory Thompson]

Except that they too adopted many doctrines and practices at variance with the NT. They are the original Catholics.

The Bible does not teach theosis or divinization (as one glaring example). The Bible teaches that the saints will be glorified, and resemble Christ, not become "little gods".

Theosis is in the bible. Divinization is not.

limiting how much you can be like christ, is a personal choice.

 

[ml5363]

The church is the body of believers who believe in jesus christ, accept him, and follow him!

 

[rturner76]

And if the teacher passes on a fallacy.....?What is it compared against to keep things on track?.....Scripture maybe?........

The other Apostolic teachers and the church body makes sure all is kosher. That's not to say once people become Priests they don't go heretic. Ultimately it is up to the Bishop to make sure everything is being done by the book and he is responsible to the Archbishop.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I honestly don' t know them and never asked. I'm still a pretty new Catholic. The Priests learn them in Seminary and keep learning them until they become a Bishop. Part of it is knowing the words to say when you are doing certain blessings or work in the church I think. Also the more detailed inner workins of the trinity and how salvation works and how sacraments work and all the mysteries of the church

It sounds as if you believe in something you don't know anything about, are simply told are true and have no evidence of......I have to admit that takes a huge amount of faith but it seems that faith is placed in men and not God......

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Q. Did Jesus found a church?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18)

Q. How many churches did Jesus found?
A. One; the Church is the Body of Christ and there is only one body of Christ. (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 1:18)

Q. So, if Jesus founded a Church, then when was it founded?
A. 2000 years ago.

Q. Was that Church guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (John 14:26, John 16:13; Acts 2:3-4)

Q. If the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and was guided by the Holy Spirit, could it teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15)

Q. So, could we say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, taught doctrinal truth infallibly — without error — to the first-century Christians?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Did the Church of the New Testament teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (2 Timothy 1:12-14, Ephesians 4:14, Titus 1:9)

Q. Are there any denominations in the Church of the New Testament?
A. No. The Church in the New Testament is one, just as the Body of Christ is one (1 Corinthians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, Jude 19)

Q. Would a Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit still be in existence today?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 28:20, Ephesians 3:21)

Q. How old would that Church be?
A. 2000 years old.

Q. Would that Church still be guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (Matthew 28:20, John 14:16)

Q. Could that Church founded by Jesus and still guided by the Holy Spirit teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:28)

Q. So we could say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit would still teach doctrinal truth infallibly?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Would that Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, 1 Timothy 4:6)

Q. Would there be any denominations in that Church?
A. No. (1 Corinthians 1:13)

Q. Can the Lutheran denomination be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by Martin Luther in Germany in the 1500s.

Q. Can the Anglican/Episcopalian denomination, or any of its offshoots, be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by King Henry VIII in the 1500s because he wanted to divorce his wife.

Q. Are there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant groups that were founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So is there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant group that could be the Church founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So if Jesus founded a Church — one Church — in the Holy Land 2000 years ago that was guided by the Holy Spirit, and that Church is still in existence today and is still guided by the Holy Spirit (which means it teaches doctrinal truth infallibly), and there are no denominations of that Church now, just as there were no denominations of that Church 2000 years ago, then shouldn’t all Christians be in that one Church founded by Jesus?
A. Yes.

Q. Does it make sense to be in a church that was not founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. How can we identify which Church — of the thousands upon thousands — is THE Church founded by Jesus?
A. The Church founded by Jesus should at least claim to be THE Church founded by Jesus; it should be able to trace its leadership back 2000 years to the Apostles; and it should claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and to thus teach doctrinal truth infallibly with the authority of Jesus Christ, its Founder.

Q. How many churches fit that description?
A. One.

Q. Which Church is that?
A. The Catholic Church.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jmartignoni/which-church-is-the-church.

When Scripture uses the word Israel to whom is God referring to? All believers, emphasis on BELIEVERS. His church is made up of all true believers, not souls within a given physical church. So to argue a certain church was originally founded by Christ and thus remains to this day the ONLY true building of believers is missing His point.
See Romans...we as believers are referred to as sons of Abraham, the father of all who believe.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I honestly don' t know them and never asked. I'm still a pretty new Catholic. The Priests learn them in Seminary and keep learning them until they become a Bishop. Part of it is knowing the words to say when you are doing certain blessings or work in the church I think. Also the more detailed inner workins of the trinity and how salvation works and how sacraments work and all the mysteries of the church

You admit you are a new Catholic so I would not hold you to the same knowledge level as "an old hand" but I thank you for your honesty.....

 

[Job8]

Theosis is in the bible. Divinization is not.

They are deemed to be IDENTICAL by the Orthodox. And no, the Bible teaches glorification, not theosis.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Can we find a constructive direction for this thread? That falls within the actual Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology?

If we are not careful, this can be just argument-bait.

I would make the observation that regardless of where it appears it is just that. Argument bait. Or, propaganda .

 

[rturner76]

No they don't, they come from the Bible. To quote the Westminster Confession of Faith:

"The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men."

The Trinity falling within the italicised category.

Still got it from the Catholics It can be also worked out with Biblical references. They already knew about the trinity before the Bible was written.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

They are deemed to be IDENTICAL by the Orthodox. And no, the Bible teaches glorification, not theosis.

Not the Orthodox I've been talking to, do you have a link to their teachings from an official source?

For example, to learn about Catholic teachings, I read the Catechism on the Vatican website. Is there a similar point of reference for Eastern Orthodox teachings that I can read up on?

 

[rturner76]

Again, they would disagree with you....can you take Communion together?.....I think not.....can a Catholic priest celebrate EO mass.....nope. Alot more between the two than you want to believe.......

It's obviously not the same church they had a scizm (sic). The bond between the two is broken. But they do both recognize Apostolic Succession in the other and that is something important. They are branches off the same tree

 

[Strong in Him]

In other words, Protestant baptism is acceptable and their prayers are heard and accepted, however they do not receive the transubstantiation and the true presence of Christ in their Holy Communion. For them communion is a symbol of Christ's body and blood but not the actual flesh and blood.

Even the disciples didn't eat and drink the actual flesh and blood.
Jesus was sharing a meal with them and took bread and wine - real, literal bread and wine that had been made by people. He didn't cut off his arm and pass it round for them.

As far as I am concerned, when I take communion I am, in some way, feeding on Jesus - receiving him, being nourished by him who is the bread of life and the true Vine. We meet with him in fellowship and communion, in a sacrament. It is a very special time, and I'm sorry, but I don't believe anyone who implies that it is not real, or valid.

Also Priests are blessed with the Apostolic succession, meaning there is an unbroken line of Apostles from the original twelve who passed down knowledge first hand from person to person from then until now.

I wondered what that meant, thanks.
But at least 2 of the disciples wrote down Jesus' life, teaching and ministry - in one of the Gospels. And this has been passed on to all of us.

That was broken when the others left the Church.

When who left the church?

So like I said, we are all Christians but Roman Catholics and maybe Orthodox have the front row seats in the Church proper.

The church is all Christians. We are not all contained in one building so there are no front row seats, and no Christian is more important to, or more loved by, God than anyone else.

They are the original Church founded by the Disciples.

THE church was founded by Jesus.
The first branch of the church was in Jerusalem, attended mostly by Jews and led, under the Spirit, by James. Other churches were founded by other apostles in other regions or countries. All preached and proclaimed the Gospel.

The rest were founded by regular men.

ALL men are "regular men" - greatly loved by God, made in his image and filled with his Spirit, yes. But still ordinary, "regular" human men.
The only man who was not just a "regular man" was Jesus, who was also God.

 

[lesliedellow]

Still got it from the Catholics It can be also worked out with Biblical references. They already knew about the trinity before the Bible was written.

Rubbish. The first recorded use of the word "Trinity" (or its Greek counterpart) was by Theophilus of Antioch in 170 - long after the last of the New Testament books had been written.

 

[rturner76]

It sounds as if you believe in something you don't know anything about, are simply told are true and have no evidence of......I have to admit that takes a huge amount of faith but it seems that faith is placed in men and not God......

Wait a minnit now, I know what I believe. I believe the Nicene Creed. I believe in the Real Presence that is transubstantiation at holy communion, it's why I became Catholic. Nobody else has the real presence (except EO). I believe in the Holy Trinity. I am baptized. I don't need to know everything a Priest knows to understand the real presence and the trinity. Also you can get the sacrament of communion up to five times one day if you are so inclined (though they don't recommend it). I love being to be able to get the sacrament everyday if I want it/No Protestant Church does that especially with the real presence

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Wait a minnit now, I know what I believe. I believe the Nicene Creed. I believe in the Real Presence that is transubstantiation at holy communion, it's why I became Catholic. Nobody else has the real presence (except EO). I believe in the Holy Trinity. I am baptized. I don't need to know everything a Priest knows to understand the real presence and the trinity. Also you can get the sacrament of communion up to five times one day if you are so inclined (though they don't recommend it). I love being to be able to get the sacrament everyday if I want it/No Protestant Church does that especially with the real presence

transubstantiation or symbolic? both.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It's obviously not the same church they had a scizm (sic). The bond between the two is broken. But they do both recognize Apostolic Succession in the other and that is something important. They are branches off the same tree

We are all branches off the same tree.....

 

[lesliedellow]

I believe in the Real Presence that is transubstantiation at holy communion, it's why I became Catholic. Nobody else has the real presence (except EO).

How quaint. He thinks transubstantiation is a synonym for real presence.

http://onlinegracelutheran.org/Lutheran.htm

 

[rturner76]

[

Even the disciples didn't eat and drink the actual flesh and blood.
Jesus was sharing a meal with them and took bread and wine - real, literal bread and wine that had been made by people. He didn't cut off his arm and pass it round for them.

As far as I am concerned, when I take communion I am, in some way, feeding on Jesus - receiving him, being nourished by him who is the bread of life and the true Vine. We meet with him in fellowship and communion, in a sacrament. It is a very special time, and I'm sorry, but I don't believe anyone who implies that it is not real, or valid.

What youare taking is a symbol of Christ's flesh and blood. Catholics take his actual flesh and blood. It's called transubstantiation where the bread and wine turns into Christ. You are getting a symbol but even your Pastor will tell you it's not transubstantiated

I wondered what that meant, thanks.
But at least 2 of the disciples wrote down Jesus' life, teaching and ministry - in one of the Gospels. And this has been passed on to all of us.



When who left the church?

.
Martin Luther

The church is all Christians. We are not all contained in one building so there are no front row seats, and no Christian is more important to, or more loved by, God than anyone else.



THE church was founded by Jesus.
The first branch of the church was in Jerusalem, attended mostly by Jews and led, under the Spirit, by James. Other churches were founded by other apostles in other regions or countries. All preached and proclaimed the Gospel.

And the RCC was founded by Peter who was given "the keys to the kingdom" by Jesus Christ. This is the very Church that Peter founded with those keys. Yes Jesus started the church but the disciples bult it and grew it after he left.

Also yes we have gospels that were passed down to all of us but Peter sat in Rome and taught his Priests the inner workings of how Christ's plan was to unfold and taught them everything they were supposed to do. He didn't just write a script, he stayed and taught them how to train Priests so the Church would never die.

 

[rturner76]

Rubbish. The first recorded use of the word "Trinity" (or its Greek counterpart) was by Theophilus of Antioch in 170 - long after the last of the New Testament books had been written.

Long after the Aural use of the word

 

[Thursday]

Tradition is whatever the Catholic Church sees fit to make up.

Yes, and it has been that way for 2000 years. Jesus gave the Church his authority to protect the truth.

Whatever it binds on earth is bound in heaven. It is led in all truth by the Holy Spirit and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.