Which Church is THE Church?

[lesliedellow]

Thursday, you'd be interested to find the group with the sign "Church of Christ Meets Here" uses essentially the same argument and makes the same claim. Incidentally, both groups claim to NOT be denominations.

As Skywriting said, the Church is the entire 'body' or group of those who believe in Jesus Christ. The Church is not members of a particular denomination; such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Christ (meets here), Baptists or any other.

Hear hear.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Q. Did Jesus found a church?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18)

Q. How many churches did Jesus found?
A. One; the Church is the Body of Christ and there is only one body of Christ. (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 1:18)

Q. So, if Jesus founded a Church, then when was it founded?
A. 2000 years ago.

Q. Was that Church guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (John 14:26, John 16:13; Acts 2:3-4)

Q. If the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and was guided by the Holy Spirit, could it teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15)

Q. So, could we say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, taught doctrinal truth infallibly — without error — to the first-century Christians?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Did the Church of the New Testament teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (2 Timothy 1:12-14, Ephesians 4:14, Titus 1:9)

Q. Are there any denominations in the Church of the New Testament?
A. No. The Church in the New Testament is one, just as the Body of Christ is one (1 Corinthians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, Jude 19)

Q. Would a Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit still be in existence today?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 28:20, Ephesians 3:21)

Q. How old would that Church be?
A. 2000 years old.

Q. Would that Church still be guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (Matthew 28:20, John 14:16)

Q. Could that Church founded by Jesus and still guided by the Holy Spirit teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:28)

Q. So we could say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit would still teach doctrinal truth infallibly?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Would that Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, 1 Timothy 4:6)

Q. Would there be any denominations in that Church?
A. No. (1 Corinthians 1:13)

Q. Can the Lutheran denomination be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by Martin Luther in Germany in the 1500s.

Q. Can the Anglican/Episcopalian denomination, or any of its offshoots, be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by King Henry VIII in the 1500s because he wanted to divorce his wife.

Q. Are there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant groups that were founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So is there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant group that could be the Church founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So if Jesus founded a Church — one Church — in the Holy Land 2000 years ago that was guided by the Holy Spirit, and that Church is still in existence today and is still guided by the Holy Spirit (which means it teaches doctrinal truth infallibly), and there are no denominations of that Church now, just as there were no denominations of that Church 2000 years ago, then shouldn’t all Christians be in that one Church founded by Jesus?
A. Yes.

Q. Does it make sense to be in a church that was not founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. How can we identify which Church — of the thousands upon thousands — is THE Church founded by Jesus?
A. The Church founded by Jesus should at least claim to be THE Church founded by Jesus; it should be able to trace its leadership back 2000 years to the Apostles; and it should claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and to thus teach doctrinal truth infallibly with the authority of Jesus Christ, its Founder.

Q. How many churches fit that description?
A. One.

Q. Which Church is that?
A. The Catholic Church.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jmartignoni/which-church-is-the-church.

So, why do we all have to keep beating each other over the head in regard as to which Christian institution or denomination gets to claim the title of the True Church, or the Body of Primacy, or the Original Ekklesia?

This kind of tiff among various Christians today, and in numerous instances in the past, seems to me to go against the underlying message of the Gospel and everything the New Testament writers communicate, reflect on, and impart about Jesus' will for His people.

I just ... don't get it. (I get it; but I don't feel there's a really good point to it all.) Why is it so difficult for us to be gracious, kind, and mutually beneficent to one another? What is the social irritant that keeps us Christians on edge and tempts us to try to dominate each other, whether spiritually or politically?

2PhiloVoid

 

[dqhall]

If the Roman Catholic Church with its headquarters in Rome claims to be the only church Jesus founded, how do you explain why they burned Wycliffe at the stake for translating the scriptures into English? How can you explain why they were selling pieces of paper allowing people to get their loved ones out of purgatory to fill their treasury? Why were thousands executed during the Spanish Inquisition? Why were Catholics involved in the slave trade in Spanish and Portuguese colonies?

How am I supposed to believe that Roman Catholics alone have access to Jesus when I can find lists of Vatican scandals in Google. God does not appoint pedophiles to administer his teachings. A righteous Protestant could do better. You might show me lists of Protestant scandals.

The body of Christ must be those who do the will of God the Father, more than some address in Rome.

 

[Hallstone]

So, why do we all have to keep beating each other over the head in regard as to which Christian institution or denomination gets to claim the title of the True Church, or the Body of Primacy, or the Original Ekklesia?

This kind of tiff among various Christians today, and in numerous instances in the past, seems to me to go against the underlying message of the Gospel and everything the New Testament writers communicate, reflect on, and impart about Jesus' will for His people.

I just ... don't get it. (I get it; but I don't feel there's a really good point to it all.) Why is it so difficult for us to be gracious, kind, and mutually beneficent to one another? What is the social irritant that keeps us Christians on edge and tempts us to try to dominate each other, whether spiritually or politically?

2PhiloVoid

Actually the truth always has its original intended effect. Truth is a sword of division, hence the Ekklesia, or called out.
Luk 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
Luk 12:52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
Luk 12:53 "They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

 

[Job8]

So if Jesus founded a Church — one Church — in the Holy Land 2000 years ago

There you go. The Church founded in the Holy Land was the church at Jerusalem. So that automatically cancels the church at Rome.

 

[Job8]

If the Roman Catholic Church with its headquarters in Rome claims to be the only church Jesus founded, how do you explain why they burned Wycliffe at the stake for translating the scriptures into English?

Because the RCC is the counterfeit church.

 

[PapaZoom]

Here's a blog and this entry highlights a list of 313 books below which compare Roman Catholicism with God’s Word and Evangelical Christianity.
https://excatholic4christ.wordpress.com/about/

I'm sure catholic believers will find fault in the list, especially the book by James G. McCarthy and John MacArthur. Not surprising. I wonder how many of the Catholic Church read a book or two on this list and then left the RCC as a result?

 

[Strong in Him]

Nope. The Church is a distinct congregation with visible Sacraments which replaced the ordinances of Judaism. The Church has specific leadership and a specific place and type of worship.

Nope. The church is all Christian believers.
We have the Gospel and the Holy Spirit, Jesus is our Lord and the head of his body.

Your Prottie denominations have none of that.

All denominations have leadership. Most have liturgical worship using hymns, the Psalms, prayers from all traditions, including Catholics, and readings from the Bible.
Most also worship in specific designated buildings; protestants have cathedrals too.

They are not tailored, sir.

Sorry but they are. Maybe tailored's not quite the right word, but they are structured in such a way that only one conclusion is possible - the one that the forummer, who is Catholic, wants us to reach.

And by the way, I'm not a "sir".

You have absolutely no proof whatsoever that your particular denomination existed in the first century.

???
1) I have already said that the church is all believers
2) I have not claimed that my denomination existed in the 1st century. I know perfectly well that it didn't; John Wesley was not alive then. It's not important.

But the Holy Orthodox and the Catholic Church can trace their practices and beliefs all the way back to the first century.

We all believe the same Gospel - Jesus who is God, became incarnate, died for our sins on the cross, was raised again, ascended and sent his Holy Spirit to live in us. It is by the Spirit we are born again and the Spirit who assures us that we are God's children and belong to him.
I would say that at least 95% of church practices, robes, prayer books, incense, translation of the Bible, tithing etc are not important - not counting the sacraments, which are.

Why would you want to be in a group that A.) does not worship as the Apostles and Early Church did B.) has no history past 1517 C.) made up doctrines which were not known by the Early Church and which came from torturing and twisting Scripture?

a) All Christians - and certainly my denomination - believe the Gospel and worship as the early church did, b) this Gospel has been around since AD 33-ish, c) I don't know what doctrines your're talking about of who you're accusing of twisting Scripture. I'm afraid i can think of some catholic doctrines and practices that I would put into that category. I didn't list them and don't particularly want to discuss them, because my purpose in replying to this thread was to say that many others are Christians and to answer the implied insult that we are not members of Christ's church.

But we could equally ask;
Q Would the true church be led by the Spirit?
A Yes

Q Would the true church, led by the Spirit of truth, teach what is not in the Bible?
A No

Q Is ................. (insert Catholic teaching or doctrine) in the Bible?
A No

All doctrines of the Holy Orthodox and most of the doctrines of the Catholic Church (except 2)can be found in a proper interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures.

So at the very least you have 2 doctrines which you concede are unscriptural. yet in the next breath you say that you uphold Scripture and worship as the early church did.

Let's take the Theotokis, or the Mother of God, and Her being Queen of Heaven and earth. Jesus is called "the Last Adam" in 1 Corin. 15:45. I used to just blow by that verse (as you probably have done many times in your Bible study) without asking myself "What is the real significance of Jesus being called the Last Adam?" The name "Adam" points back to the Garden of Eden. Big clue there. If Jesus is "last Adam" then it means He has taken Adam's place as the head of mankind and the one who is now over Creation, as the Father intended Adam to be one day. Adam failed, Jesus succeeded, and Adam (that is, covenant head over Creation) is restored. The damage done to mankind in the Fall has been reversed.

Oh! But wait! What about Eve? If Christ's work on the Cross has undone the damage done in the Fall, and restored to mankind a Last Adam to head over all Creation, can we just forget about Eve? Not at all! For the restoration of the Edenic glory to mankind to be complete, there must be a New Eve. Someone go to along with the Last Adam in taking the place of the original Eve.

We don't need anyone to go along with the last Adam to take the place of the original Eve. Who says we do? Not Scripture.
Sin came into the world through Adam. I believe that Scripture cites Adam as being the bringer of sin rather than Eve because a) Eve was deceived (tricked); Adam knew full well what God had commanded and deliberately disobeyed. It's not a sin to be tricked; it is a sin to reject and disobey God's word. And b) the man was the head - head of the household, head of his wife. If a man was circumcised or baptised - the whole household was too. If a man was sold into slavery his family were too (if he had one.) If a male heir to the throne/head of a tribe sinned and was killed; his family were too. Boys were the heirs in a family, not girls - which is why Scripture talks about sons of God. All genealogies are listed through the fathers.

Sin came into the world through Adam, and Jesus was the second Adam. Paul does not say that sin came into the world through Eve, nor that a second Eve was needed to redeem women.

Who could it be.....hmmmmmmmmmmm.....let's see.

I only see one candidate, that would be the Virgin Mary. She is the New Eve,

You don't need a "new Eve".
But even if you insisted on having one; the virgin Mary wasn't Jesus' wife, so what makes her a candidate to be the second Eve? And if you say it's because she was perfect, sorry, she wasn't. If she had been, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come, be born and die.

Adam and Eve were destined to be king and queen over Creation,

Where is that in Scripture?
Humans were created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26-27, made a little lower than the angels, Psalm 8, and were the pinnacle of God's creation. The image of God in us has been soiled by sin, but a relationship with God is still possible - and only humans are able to have that relationship.
Adam and Eve DID, in a sense, rule over creation - they were given authority over the animals and were given plants for food. That wasn't taken away from them when they sinned.

Jesus and Mary, the Last Adam and the New Eve, were obedient and are now the human rulers over Creation.

Jesus rules with his mother??
He isn't able, or powerful enough, to rule on his own??

This is how you do Bible study, sir.

By reading things into Scripture that aren't there? I don't think so.

You don't read Chick tracts to get good Bible information, nor do you use the "literalist interpretive grid" to try to understand the mind of God when He Himself uses analogies, metaphors, parables, and stories to teach us.

I have no idea what a "chick tract" or a "literalist interpretative grid" is.

Q So is the Catholic church the true church?

See what I mean? You can structure questions to arrive at a predetermined conclusion. It proves nothing.

Back to my original point. The questions are not "structured."

I disagree.

You appear to be afraid to admit that you are following a man-made set of traditions which did not exist prior to 1517

I don't know how you can make a judgement on my intentions or motives, I don't know how you can talk about man made traditions when the things you have explained are not in Scripture, and you have also said that 2 of your doctrines are not, and I don't know why you keep talking about 1517. The Church and Gospel existed long before Martin Luther.

 

[rturner76]

In my opinion there is the universal Christian church an within that you have the original true and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church. The original Church. Others are christian but they are not Catholic Christians wth the fullness of the Apostolic Succession.

In other words, Protestant baptism is acceptable and their prayers are heard and accepted, however they do not receive the transubstantiation and the true presence of Christ in their Holy Communion. For them communion is a symbol of Christ's body and blood but not the actual flesh and blood.

Also Priests are blessed with the Apostolic succession, meaning there is an unbroken line of Apostles from the original twelve who passed down knowledge first hand from person to person from then until now. That was broken when the others left the Church.

So like I said, we are all Christians but Roman Catholics and maybe Orthodox have the front row seats in the Church proper. They are the original Church founded by the Disciples. The rest were founded by regular men.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So like I said, we are all Christians but Roman Catholics and maybe Orthodox have the front row seats in the Church proper.

That is the nicest back handed complement I have ever received.....
Matthew 19.... 29 In fact, everyone who has left his homes, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or fields because of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.”

Matthew 20....
1 “The kingdom from heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
2 After agreeing to pay the workers one denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 When he went out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing in the marketplace without work.
4 He told them, ‘You go into the vineyard, too, and I will pay you whatever is right.’
5 So off they went. He went out again about noon and about three o’clock and did the same thing.
6 About five o’clock he went out and found some others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why are you standing here all day long without work?’
7 They told him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He told them, ‘You go into the vineyard as well.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard told his manager, ‘Call the workers and give them their wages, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’
9 Those who were hired at five o’clock came, and each received a denarius.
10 “When the first came, they thought they would receive more, but each received a denarius as well.
11 When they received it, they began to complain to the landowner,
12 ‘These last fellows worked only one hour, but you paid them the same as us, and we’ve been working all day, enduring the scorching heat!’
13 “But he told one of them, ‘Friend, I’m not treating you unfairly. You did agree with me for a denarius, didn’t you?
14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give this last man as much as I gave you.
15 I am allowed to do what I want with my own money, am I not? Or are you envious because I’m generous?’
16 “In the same way, the last will be first, and the first will be last, because many are called, but few are chosen.”

But I am not too concerned about my seat in Heaven; it will be where Messiah indicates not man.....

 

[lesliedellow]

who passed down knowledge first hand from person to person from then until now. That was broken when the others left the Church.

So when they are ordained, they have electrodes attached to their heads, so that they can have this secret knowledge infused into them.

 

[rturner76]

So when they are ordained, they have electrodes attached to their heads, so that they can have this secret knowledge infused into them.

No secret knowledge, just the knowledge of the Apostles that the others don't get because they aren't Catholic

 

[rturner76]

That is the nicest back handed complement I have ever received.....
Matthew 19.... 29 In fact, everyone who has left his homes, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or fields because of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.”

Matthew 20....
1 “The kingdom from heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
2 After agreeing to pay the workers one denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 When he went out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing in the marketplace without work.
4 He told them, ‘You go into the vineyard, too, and I will pay you whatever is right.’
5 So off they went. He went out again about noon and about three o’clock and did the same thing.
6 About five o’clock he went out and found some others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why are you standing here all day long without work?’
7 They told him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He told them, ‘You go into the vineyard as well.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard told his manager, ‘Call the workers and give them their wages, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’
9 Those who were hired at five o’clock came, and each received a denarius.
10 “When the first came, they thought they would receive more, but each received a denarius as well.
11 When they received it, they began to complain to the landowner,
12 ‘These last fellows worked only one hour, but you paid them the same as us, and we’ve been working all day, enduring the scorching heat!’
13 “But he told one of them, ‘Friend, I’m not treating you unfairly. You did agree with me for a denarius, didn’t you?
14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give this last man as much as I gave you.
15 I am allowed to do what I want with my own money, am I not? Or are you envious because I’m generous?’
16 “In the same way, the last will be first, and the first will be last, because many are called, but few are chosen.”

But I am not too concerned about my seat in Heaven; it will be where Messiah indicates not man.....

See. nothing to worry about right?

 

[lesliedellow]

No secret knowledge, just the knowledge of the Apostles that the others don't get because they aren't Catholic

There is no knowledge beyond the Bible, and what can be gleaned from writers in the early second century; with only the former counting as revelation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Q. Did Jesus found a church?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18)

Q. How many churches did Jesus found?
A. One; the Church is the Body of Christ and there is only one body of Christ. (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 1:18)

Q. So, if Jesus founded a Church, then when was it founded?
A. 2000 years ago.

Q. Was that Church guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (John 14:26, John 16:13; Acts 2:3-4)

Q. If the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and was guided by the Holy Spirit, could it teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15)

Q. So, could we say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, taught doctrinal truth infallibly — without error — to the first-century Christians?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Did the Church of the New Testament teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (2 Timothy 1:12-14, Ephesians 4:14, Titus 1:9)

Q. Are there any denominations in the Church of the New Testament?
A. No. The Church in the New Testament is one, just as the Body of Christ is one (1 Corinthians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, Jude 19)

Q. Would a Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit still be in existence today?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 28:20, Ephesians 3:21)

Q. How old would that Church be?
A. 2000 years old.

Q. Would that Church still be guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (Matthew 28:20, John 14:16)

Q. Could that Church founded by Jesus and still guided by the Holy Spirit teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:28)

Q. So we could say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit would still teach doctrinal truth infallibly?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Would that Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, 1 Timothy 4:6)

Q. Would there be any denominations in that Church?
A. No. (1 Corinthians 1:13)

Q. Can the Lutheran denomination be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by Martin Luther in Germany in the 1500s.

Q. Can the Anglican/Episcopalian denomination, or any of its offshoots, be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by King Henry VIII in the 1500s because he wanted to divorce his wife.

Q. Are there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant groups that were founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So is there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant group that could be the Church founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So if Jesus founded a Church — one Church — in the Holy Land 2000 years ago that was guided by the Holy Spirit, and that Church is still in existence today and is still guided by the Holy Spirit (which means it teaches doctrinal truth infallibly), and there are no denominations of that Church now, just as there were no denominations of that Church 2000 years ago, then shouldn’t all Christians be in that one Church founded by Jesus?
A. Yes.

Q. Does it make sense to be in a church that was not founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. How can we identify which Church — of the thousands upon thousands — is THE Church founded by Jesus?
A. The Church founded by Jesus should at least claim to be THE Church founded by Jesus; it should be able to trace its leadership back 2000 years to the Apostles; and it should claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and to thus teach doctrinal truth infallibly with the authority of Jesus Christ, its Founder.

Q. How many churches fit that description?
A. One.

Q. Which Church is that?
A. The Catholic Church.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jmartignoni/which-church-is-the-church.

I believe in the church Jesus is building that tears down the gates of hell, which one is that?

Ephesians 2:22 describes the church Jesus is building

 

[rturner76]

There is no knowledge beyond the Bible, and what can be gleaned from writers in the early second century; with only the former counting as revelation.

Correct,not for a Protestant because they don't have the knowledge of the Apostles. There is Scripture and Tradition in the Catholic Church

 

[civilwarbuff]

No secret knowledge, just the knowledge of the Apostles that the others don't get because they aren't Catholic

What knowledge is that?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Since telepathy or a similar method of doctrinal transmission is not part of the Catholic tradition, the Catholics do not have the knowledge of the apostles either.

 

[lesliedellow]

Correct,not for a Protestant because they don't have the knowledge of the Apostles. There is Scripture and Tradition in the Catholic Church

Tradition is whatever the Catholic Church sees fit to make up.

 

[civilwarbuff]

See. nothing to worry about right?

Nothing that man can determine, that is for sure....