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Featured Which Church is THE Church?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Thursday, Sep 1, 2016.

  1. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Ya, we have soooooo much in common.

    Most, if not all, would reject the notion of Consubstantiation. Wiki is open source so opinions that are not always right can creep in. Consubstantiation is usually used in a derogatory way against our theology by either Catholics or those who deny the real presence. Transubstantiation is rejected by Lutherans because Scripture speaks of the Eucharist variously as Christ's body and blood and as bread and wine; Transubstantiation takes bread and wine out of the equation. Likewise, opponents of the Biblical "Sacramental Union" (remember the Bible talks of both body and blood, and bread and wine) seem to need to quantify everything; and "consubstantiation" puts restrictions on the mysterious and miraculous presence of Christ's very body and blood.

    Actually, it is the "Verba"; and while we do not know exactly when nor how Christ's very body and blood becomes present, we do know that it is within the context of the Mass. Nor do we know when or even if the elements cease to be Christ's body and blood; therefore, consecrated elements that remain are either consumed by the Pastor/deacon/elder after all have communed; or are stored in a place, kept apart from those elements that had not been consecrated; usually in the Sacristy, but sometimes in a tabernacle. Because we do not know, these reserved elements are not used to take communion the sick and shut-ins. It is our custom therefore, that the Pastor will celebrate Mass in a hospital rooms or the homes of the sick and the shut-ins; so that the Eucharist is always distributed within the context of the Mass.
     
  2. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I was once told that when the communion is consumed it becomes the flesh and blood...don't think we like to talk about it. In any event, the Communion takes place after the blessing. I think it wrong to try to work out the details as to when and How the Presence exists...it is a great miracle and mystery just as the fact that we are one with Christ is a great mystery as declared by Paul. And in the temple were placed the fresh bread of the "Presence".
     
  3. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    Bread for the Tabernacle​


    LEVITICUS 24
    5 "And you shall take fine flour and bake twelve c cakes with it. Two-tenths of an ephah shall be in each cake. 6 "You shall set them in two rows, six in a row, d on the pure gold table before the LORD. 7 "And you shall put pure frankincense on each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 8 f"Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. 9"And g it shall be for Aaron and his sons, h and they shall eat it in a holy place; for it is most holy to him from the offerings of the LORD made by fire, by a perpetual statute."​

    Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
    Le 24:9
    II. The table must always be kept spread. This was appointed before, Ex 25:30. And here also, 1. The table was furnished with bread; not dainties nor varieties to gratify a luxurious palate, but twelve loaves or cakes of bread, Le 24:5-6. Where there is plenty of bread there is no famine; and where bread is not there is no feast. There was a loaf for every tribe, for in our Father's house there is bread enough. They were all provided for by the divine bounty, and were all welcome to the divine grace. Even after the revolt of the ten tribes this number of loaves was continued (2Ch 13:11), for the sake of those few of each tribe that retained their affection to the temple and continued their attendance on it. 2. A handful of frankincense was put in a golden saucer, upon or by each row, Le 24:7. When the bread was removed, and given to the priests, this frankincense was burnt upon the golden altar (I suppose) over and above the daily incense: and this was for a memorial instead of the bread, an offering made by fire, as the handful of the meat-offering which was burnt upon the altar is called the memorial thereof, Le 2:2. Thus a little was accepted as a humble acknowledgment, and all the loaves were consigned to the priests. All God's spiritual Israel, typified by the twelve loaves, are made through Christ a sweet savour to him, and their prayers are said to come up before God for a memorial, Ac 10:4. The word is borrowed from the ceremonial law. 3. Every sabbath it was renewed. When the loaves had stood there a week, the priests had them to eat with other holy things that were to be eaten in the holy place (Le 24:9), and new ones were provided at the public charge, and put in the room of them, Le 24:8. The Jews say, "The hands of those priests that put on were mixed with theirs that took off, that the table might be never empty, but the bread might be before the Lord continually." God is never unprovided for the entertainment of those that visit him, as men often are, Lu 11:5. Every one of those cakes contained two tenth-deals, that is, two omers of fine flour; just so much manna every Israelite gathered on the sixth day for the sabbath, Ex 16:22. Hence some infer that this show-bread, which was set on the table on the sabbath, was intended as a memorial of the manna wherewith they were fed in the wilderness. Christ's ministers should provide new bread for his house every sabbath day, the production of their fresh studies in the scripture, that their proficiency may appear to all, 1Ti 4:1,5.


    This stuff is so old ....
     
  4. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    This would be reception-ism, which gives us involvement in the miracle; such is inappropriate as it gives us some credit for the miracle. Rather, it is God doing so for us; we only passively receive His body and blood, and have no part in the miracle.
     
  5. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    I would say that this is out of context, in that this refers to a sacrificial act (something that we do for God) not a sacramental act (something done for us by God).
     
  6. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    Bread of the Presence:
    Exodus 25:30 (and many other references):
    Put the bread of the Presence on this table to be before me at all times.


    and, furthermore...
    Genesis 14:18-19:
    Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram...
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That is a certain POV which, as Mark noted, sounds like the idea that is called receptionism. But offhand I can't think of any Christian denomination that subscribes to it.
     
  8. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I see no violation of that "man-made" precept when saying the bread and wine become flesh and blood upon ingestion despite what you say. How can it give us some credit for the miracle??? That sounds like something established only in the mind of the beholder.
     
  9. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Well, doesn't the mindset of the recipient supposedly determine whether it is or is not Christ's true body and blood?
     
  10. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    No, that is indeed reception-ism. If this were so, that makes us (by our mindset) responsible for the miracle. Likewise, if a person who receives in a manner that is unworthy, does not get any of Christ's body and blood; how can that person be eating and drinking damnation upon them selves?
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Yes it is. But in the above statement I was answering the question asked by "throughfierytrial"--
    Receptionism does (or would) give us credit. That's for the reason I explained and which you quoted. It's not a statement of my own view of the sacrament.

    He profanes or abuses the sacrament...and that brings a judgment upon him. That fact is related to receiving in an unworthy manner but it doesn't change the nature of the sacrament itself.
     
  12. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    Scripture doesn't say they don't get it.
     
  13. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    We need to be mindful that as Luther asserted to Zwingli; it is what it is; Christ said "this is my body" and "this is my blood". He did not say this will become for you. Is is.
     
  14. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Well stated:oldthumbsup:; sorry I misunderstood:sorry: (and was taken a bit aback by my misunderstanding).
     
  15. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I believe it does Albion and also the announcement of a churches practice may preclude one from participating if it is not one's own belief.
     
  16. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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  17. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    All this banter....

    When Christ looks down on this earth, He sees humans. He could care less who your parents were. What "religion" you were born into. What Church you attended, if any. And when He judges us all in the end, He is not going to ask what man made denomination we followed. He is not going to ask if we were Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Lutheran.... what ever.

    He will look at our heart.
    Did you believe He was the Christ?
    Did you recognize that you were a sinner and unable, in any humanly possible way, to pay the debt of your sins, no matter how few?
    Did you acknowledge that He, and only He, can cleanse you from your sin?
    Did you humble yourself and ask Him to forgive you of your sins?
    Did you believe that He would do this just because you asked Him to?
    Did you attempt, each day, to live more the way He showed us to live?

    If so, then you are part of the body of Christ. You are a member of His Church. You are going to be included in the vast ceremony of the marriage of Christ and His Bride........the church. You will be considered one of the millions of believers who are called the "bride of Christ".

    He is coming for us, soon I hope, and we... Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, Dutch Christian Reformers, Pre-tribbers, Midd-tribbers, Post-tribbers, Baptism must be mandatory believers, Baptism only for obedience not for salvation believers, straight, gay, thieves, murderers, corrupt politicians, adulterers, those who use profanity, misers, rich, greedy, ...............................ANY who have seen Christ's story,believed and came to Him for forgiveness.............. ANY.

    In short.... Born once, die twice.........Born twice, die once.

    Religion......it's man made, it's do this, do that, do, do, do, do and don't, don't don't, don't.

    Salvation ...........It's Christs free gift. You do nothing because.....It's DONE, DONE, DONE, DONE.

    Bless you all as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We are all wrong in some ways. We all have truth in others.

    That will all end soon. Truth will survive the fire of judgement. We can all, some day, sit by the tree of life and laugh at our human beliefs and errors.
     
  18. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    I don't disagree, but out of dutiful respect for our Lord, we owe it to ourselves to search for truth; and in doing so we look to Scripture, the Chruch and Traditions.

    God will forgive us for being wrong, God will not penalize us for trying to be as correct as we can.
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Well, if so, that would make the recipient at least partially responsible for whatever the elements are, right? It would give him the (or some) credit, to use the wording that was employed a few posts back.
     
  20. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I don't know any Anglicans who are receptionists, either, but as for the Articles, I don't find anything in them that supports a receptionist view. You never know what The Episcopal Church is going to say from day to day, however.
     
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