Which Church is THE Church?

[civilwarbuff]

The one I like best is I bow my head, I thank my God and my Messiah for his sacrifice for my path to salvation. Then I eat the bread, representing His body broken for me, and and drink the wine, representing His blood shed for me, and I am humbled that I am in His presence.

 

[Deadworm]

Thursday: Q. Did Jesus found a church?
False A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18)
True A: No, Jesus founded an ekklesia, a people called out to worship and serve.
The list oof apostolic succession is a fabrication stemming from the time of Eusebius (4th century). In the earliest list Linus, not Peter, is listed as the first bishop of Rome. Nor is there any evidence that succession lists can be correlated with doctrinal consistency. In the mid-2nd century, two of the greatest heretics, Marcion and Valentinus, vied for status as the bishop of Rome, but were beaten out by a martyr. This battle for to be bishop illustrates the doctrinal diversity of the various house churches at Rome in the 2nd century (also witness the Shepherd of Hermas written at Rome).

Q. How many churches did Jesus found?
False A. One; the Church is the Body of Christ and there is only one body of Christ. (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 1:18)
True A: By your own admission, Paul, not Jesus, established the identity of the Church as the Body of Christ; and Pauline churches were oriented towards Gentile values and were not Torah observant, like the Mother Jerusalem Church.


Q. Was that Church guided by the Holy Spirit?
False A. Yes. (John 14:26, John 16:13; Acts 2:3-4)
True A: Paul teaches that the church's attitude can extinguish the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and Jesus asks prophetically, "When the Son of Man returns, will He even find faith on the earth (Luke 18:8)?"

Q. If the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and was guided by the Holy Spirit, could it teach doctrinal error?
False A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15)
True A: Yes, we can lose touch with the Spirit by grieving Him. You ignore the fact that imperfect humans and churches often lose touch with the Spirit of God. Just read John's letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3.

The rest of your Q and A sequence is rendered irrelevant by the correct answers to your questions.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Understand I have seen this question asked many times and the answers have always been, at best, inadequate. I would love to hear something substantial and meaningful........

In Lutheranism and in the Episcopal church it is after the blessing of the bread and wine (that blessing is usually a recitation of Christ's words of institution at the last supper. We Lutherans (conservative Lutherans at least) do not believe as do the Catholics, you seem to realize, but we do see the miraculous partaking in Christ's actual body and blood as we partake of real bread and real wine...quite different I know, but the blessing is key.

 

[CodyFaith]

edit - gonna remove my post, as I have Catholics friends here I wouldn't want to offend.

But the church is, and always has been, the body of believers. Individual churches are not the church itself, rather, a group of people from the church (the body of believers).

 

[throughfiierytrial]

@PapaZoom can respond on his own behalf but I don't believe it was a joke; it is a serious question. When does transubstantiation happen? One answer was when the Priest is finished with his "thing" but he is a young Catholic so I won't take that as a final answer. And I don't believe Lutheran's accept that Catholic teaching (as a rule) so your own answer is also discounted. Maybe a more learned Catholic can answer the question.......

I apologize to PapaZoom profusely then, but realize I have heard our Lutheran Communion spoken of in many derogatory ways and I am more offended for the person doing it I think than for myself...

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I'm asking a serious question and you are assuming I'm making a joke without even knowing.

So sorry...years of hearing scoffing of Lutheran communion...again, I apologize profusely!

 

[PapaZoom]

I apologize to PapaZoom profusely then, but realize I have heard our Lutheran Communion spoken of in many derogatory ways and I am more offended for the person doing it I think than for myself...

No worries. It happens (as I understand it now) after the Priest finishes blessing it. It doesn't change appearance and is still a wafer and wine but nevertheless becomes the literal body of Christ. I think that's the understanding.

I don't believe this is actually taught in Scripture but it does seem to me that if there's a "literal" change of the wafer/wine to the actual body of Christ, there would be DNA evidence. Plus, there's this: The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is that it is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a "re-sa

crifice" of Jesus Christ for our sins, or as a “re-offering / re-presentation” of His sacrifice. This is directly in contradiction to what Scripture says, that Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27 declares, "Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself."

http://www.gotquestions.org/transubstantiation.html

My understanding is articulated in the article: The Scriptures declare that the Lord's Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood.

That's how I see it too.

 

[PapaZoom]

So sorry...years of hearing scoffing of Lutheran communion...again, I apologize profusely!

I've forgotten it already.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The one I like best is I bow my head, I thank my God and my Messiah for his sacrifice for my path to salvation. Then I eat the bread, representing His body broken for me, and and drink the wine, representing His blood shed for me, and I am humbled that I am in His presence.

I love that practice of yours. Our practice...examining ourselves beforehand (usually throughout the week before communion) for shortcomings in our faith life and repenting for such shortcomings and prayers for strengthening and yes, then too a very excellent practice is to include time to remember His great sacrifice and thanksgiving...for as Paul writes in I Corinthians 11...we proclaim the Lord's death until He comes...His victory over sin, death and the devil.

 

[PapaZoom]

I love that practice of yours. Our practice...examining ourselves beforehand (usually throughout the week before communion) for shortcomings in our faith life and repenting for such shortcomings and prayers for strengthening and yes, then too a very excellent practice is to include time to remember His great sacrifice and thanksgiving...for as Paul writes in I Corinthians 11...we proclaim the Lord's death until He comes...His victory over sin, death and the devil.

Well said!

 

[Kristen Johnson]

When I look to the Church, I look to a place that can feed me spiritually. To do that, they need sound theology, but also a sense of community and service.

 

[Basil the Great]

The Eastern Orthodox Church would appear to have just as strong a claim as the RCC to be the one true Church, for those who cannot accept the concept of an invisible Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because of my experience in marketing, I saw that coming.
The Church is the entire body of believers.
Not a prophesy about the RCC.

“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them” (Matthew 18:20)

I agree.
Now if we can get a Pope to live here in Texas, I just might, emphasis on "might", sign up with the RCC.
Highly doubtful tho.......

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/matthew-18-20.920498/

bleechers said:

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Just a little pet peeve of mine... I hear this verse quoted just about everytime I'm in a church. When the band plays, at youth rallies, prayer meetings, lunches... it is probably the most quoted verse that I hear.

It's not a big deal, but that verse, in context, has very little to do with Christ being in our midst at a prayer meeting. The context is discipline. The "two or three" comes from the standard that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all things be established." What's being established in Matthew 18:20 is sin in the church.


16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

"Let him be unto thee as an heathen" is pretty harsh stuff.
The Lord wants to assure his disciples that if they follow His path in Matthew 18, they are not to worry, He supports the action of discipline.

Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Often Matthew 18:20 is invoked at prayer meetings with the idea that the Lord will hear us since "two or three are gathered together", but Jesus clearly teaches that it when we are alone in prayer that the Father will hear and respond. Surely, He also hears group prayers, but there is no "two or three" model that assures his attention or even presence.

Just a thought.

Again, it wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't used ad nauseum and as a formula.



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[Strong in Him]

What youare taking is a symbol of Christ's flesh and blood. Catholics take his actual flesh and blood. It's called transubstantiation where the bread and wine turns into Christ. You are getting a symbol but even your Pastor will tell you it's not transubstantiated

Who says it has to be?

Scripture says that Jesus took bread. At no point did he say "this will become literal flesh in your mouth and you have to believe that it does this, otherwise you are not really eating my body".

Sorry, others have made this point, and I'm not mocking; I just don't see any Scriptural, or logical, reason why you need to believe that you are eating real flesh.
Seems to me that at some point, someone has decided that "eating Jesus' body" requires the belief that you are consuming real flesh and drinking real blood - Jesus didn't say that.

And the RCC was founded by Peter who was given "the keys to the kingdom" by Jesus Christ. This is the very Church that Peter founded with those keys. Yes Jesus started the church but the disciples bult it and grew it after he left.

Ah, so there're two churches - the one founded by Jesus and the one founded by Peter.
I think I'll stick with the one that Jesus founded thanks.

Also yes we have gospels that were passed down to all of us but Peter sat in Rome and taught his Priests the inner workings of how Christ's plan was to unfold and taught them everything they were supposed to do.

Again, how do you know?

He didn't just write a script, he stayed and taught them how to train Priests so the Church would never die.

The church will never die and the gates of hell will never come against it because it was founded by the Lord Jesus, who is the rock, the cornerstone, Mark 12:9-12, and the foundation on which we build, 1 Corinthians 3:11; Matthew 7:24-27.

 

[Neogaia777]

Any church that professess Jesus Christ as "Lord" is a "part" of the "Body" that is his body, that is, his church... They are not currently working together or are in union or are of the same mind and one accord of one truth, however...

All true followers of his should be helping "The Church" the whole body and all it individual members toward this goal, not "fighting" over "their church" or "their beliefs", (that are half lies, or wrongs, and half truths, or rights), as the "one and only true church", for this does not seek to "unify" the "body", but causes divisions and strife and fighting within the body, and what does the bible say about that kind of behavior...? Or, a house or body that is "divided against itself" and what it says about those causing the dividing? For we are many members of one body with different functions and individual gifts of the spirit, but, we must learn how to be become of "one accord" and in union with the head, which is Christ...

The hand cannot be saying to the foot, "I have no need of you" ect, ect, (you guys know this one) Also, the left foot cannot be trying to take a step backward, and the right one forward... Or, a right hand doing one thing, while the left something else, when both of them are required to work together toward a common goal, the feet are used to walk and move the body, the hands are used to work, the legs or theighs to support the weight of the body and keep it standing, ect., ect., so on, and so forth, the eyes, to see, the ears, to hear and listen, the mouth, to speak, ect., ect., so on, and so forth...

And, this is the major problem in ALL the members of the body preventing this...

And causing the half lies...

But, Jesus is there also and is responsible for the half truths, and these are at war within each member of the body...

God Bless!

 

[SkyWriting]

Good point. So when two believers teach contradictory doctrines, one of them is not being led by the Holy Spirit.

That's not what scripture says.
“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them” (Matthew 18:20)

 

[SkyWriting]

Which Lutherans?

The church consists of:

• Rom. 1:6, "among whom you also are the called (klaytos) of Jesus Christ."

 

[SkyWriting]

Luther just tweaked the definition so it sounded different. The Catholic Church states that the transformation is a mystery beyond human understanding. Transubstantiation is the best definition we have, but consubstantiation isn't much different.

The church consists of:
1 Cor. 1:24, "but to those who are the called (klaytos), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

 

[SkyWriting]

Jesus only built one Church and it is 2000 years old. The Catholic Church has spread his message to every nation on earth. 1.2 billion strong and growing by the 10s of millions each year.

The church consists of:

Jude 1, "Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
to those who are the called (klaytos), beloved in God the Father,
and kept for Jesus Christ."

 

[SkyWriting]

When two believers teach contradictory doctrines, are both being led by the Holy Spirit?

The church consists of :
Rev. 17:14, "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called(klaytos) and chosen (eklektos) and faithful."