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God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

LarryP2

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11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Sabbath Keepers just reject your reasoning, and insist that works, particularly perfect Sabbath-keeping is necessary for Salvation and far more important than the Resurrection:

Testimonies for the Church
Volume Two, page 693, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: No Probation After Christ Comes

As we have followed down the chain of prophecy, revealed truth for our time has been clearly seen and explained. We are accountable for the privileges that we enjoy and for the light that shines upon our pathway. Those who lived in past generations were accountable for the light which was permitted to shine upon them. Their minds were exercised in regard to different points of Scripture which tested them. But they did not understand the truths which we do. They were not responsible for the light which they did not have. They had the Bible, as we have; but the time for the unfolding of special truth in relation to the closing scenes of this earth's history is during the last generations that shall live upon the earth. Special truths have been adapted to the conditions of the generations as they have existed. The present truth, which is a test to the people of this generation, was not a test to the people of generations far back. If the light which now shines upon us in regard to the Sabbath of the fourth commandment had been given to the generations in the past, God would have held them accountable for that light. When the temple of God was opened in heaven, John saw in holy vision a class of people whose attention was arrested and who were looking with reverential awe at the ark, which contained the law of God. The special test upon the fourth commandment did not come until after the temple of God was opened in heaven. Those who died before the light was given upon the law of God and the claims of the fourth commandment were not guilty of the sin of violating the seventh-day Sabbath. The wisdom and mercy of God in dispensing light and knowledge at the proper time, as the people need it, is unsearchable. Previous to His coming to judge the world in righteousness, He sends forth a warning to arouse the people and call their attention to their neglect of the fourth commandment, that they may be enlightened, and may repent of their transgression of His law, and prove their allegiance to the great Lawgiver. He has made provision that all may be holy and happy if they choose. Sufficient light has been given to this generation, that we may learn what our duties and privileges are, and enjoy the precious and solemn truths in their simplicity and power.

To show Ellen's dependence on 1844, I will include this quote from Early Writings, Pg 42-43:
Sabbath, March 24, 1849, we had a sweet and very interesting meeting with the brethren at Topsham, Maine. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the city of the living God. Then I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out with all their importance, and for God’s people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches.

I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Revelation 3:7, 8); [see page 86. See also appendix.] and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God’s people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question.

I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened. I saw that Satan was tempting some of God’s people on this point. Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about its being a test for us now.
Ellen White's soteriology revolves around the Sabbath she failed to keep Holy according the Law that ordained it. This is evident in these quotes provided below that show the Adventist formula for 'salvation' to be compliance with the old covenant from Mount Sinai you don't acknowledge God's redemption from:
No one is saved who is a transgressor of the law of God, which is the foundation of his government in heaven and in earth. {RH June 17, 1890, par. 8}

It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." 1 Samuel 2:30. {6T 356.4}

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

“God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient!” (Review & Herald, Sept. 21, 1886)

"Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life—the same condition that was required of Adam before his Fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden—harmony with God’s law, which is holy, just, and good." (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 391)


When I was growing up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church, Christians celebrating the Resurrection were denounced as devil worshipers performing a satanic rite. They completely reject the New Covenant, and their theology was unequivocally-declared to be a anti-Christian heresy:

Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)
Canon 29

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm

Since Christianity has always rejected the "Judaizing Heresy" of requiring Christians to keep the Mosaic Law, and abandoned Sabbath Keeping in the first year after the Resurrection, it is just amazing that this deceitful, dishonest promotion of the Sabbath (in reality, that is their only concern with "The Ten Commandments") continues to be allowed on a Christian forums website. If you reject the Council of Laodicea and its outlawing of the Sabbath, then you must also logically reject the Bible that it confirmed!

Canon 60
These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Apparently nobody takes your posts seriously - on this section of the board. How have you managed that so fast?
I take his posts a lot more serious than I do yours, which isn't saying a lot at that.
 
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Sophrosyne

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I got another one of those SDA flyers in the mail recently. I find it ironic that the organization has NO pride in themselves to LIST themselves as the producer and promoter of the "conference". They realize that if they put their name on it people won't even bother to come so they go to lengths to hide their identity from the gullible folks who buy into their prophecy crap.
 
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LarryP2

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I got another one of those SDA flyers in the mail recently. I find it ironic that the organization has NO pride in themselves to LIST themselves as the producer and promoter of the "conference". They realize that if they put their name on it people won't even bother to come so they go to lengths to hide their identity from the gullible folks who buy into their prophecy crap.

It is based entirely on lies and theft. Whenever you hear a Seventh Day Adventist extolling the Ten Commandments, remember one thing: Their founding prophet was involved full-time for over 60 years of violating the Ten Commandment prohibition against theft and lying.

Do not take their disingenuous "support" of the Ten Commandments seriously: They believe that they are privileged to repetitively violate two of them.
 
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Sophrosyne

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It is based entirely on lies and theft. Whenever you hear a Seventh Day Adventist extolling the Ten Commandments, remember one thing: Their founding prophet was involved full-time for over 60 years of violating the Ten Commandment prohibition against theft and lying.

Do not take their disingenuous "support" of the Ten Commandments seriously: They believe that they are privileged to repetitively violate two of them.
I think the problem I have is the deceit in it all, who in their right mind is going to attend a meeting not knowing anything about the group that promotes it. They could be trying to indoctrinate people into some dangerous cult or terrorist group. I don't think any SDA pastor would recommend anyone from his flock to go blindly to a group that advertises something related to the Bible that they don't go into depth about so why would they put up with actions they themselves wouldn't recommend to their own people? I would equate it to hypocrisy in a sense.
 
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11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
Are you saying the priesthood is set aside? The modern day versions are basically the same and about as effective IMHO.
 
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I got another one of those SDA flyers in the mail recently. I find it ironic that the organization has NO pride in themselves to LIST themselves as the producer and promoter of the "conference". They realize that if they put their name on it people won't even bother to come so they go to lengths to hide their identity from the gullible folks who buy into their prophecy crap.
All the other prophecy type meeting are advertised as being at a church.
 
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Sophrosyne

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All the other prophecy type meeting are advertised as being at a church.
nope.... advertised at some meeting center I think... pretty vague information other than an address I think at times they do put a URL to some website that purposely has no connection to any church also
 
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LarryP2

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nope.... advertised at some meeting center I think... pretty vague information other than an address I think at times they do put a URL to some website that purposely has no connection to any church also

What's wrong? You don't know of any "Evangelists With No Name" that roll into a strange town with absolutely no connection to any church? Then give their anonymous evangelistic spiel at an anonymous building for a few weeks. Then leave without ever contacting any Church and leaving everyone that came to the series high and dry, with nobody to contact?

Are you sure you aren't being a mite suspicious here!
 
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Sophrosyne

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What's wrong? You don't know of any "Evangelists With No Name" that roll into a strange town with absolutely no connection to any church? Then give their anonymous evangelistic spiel at an anonymous building for a few weeks. Then leave without ever contacting any Church and leaving everyone that came to the series high and dry, with nobody to contact?

Are you sure you aren't being a mite suspicious here!
I'm somewhat paranoid for sure... when they have a flyer that tries to make you paranoid about your standing with God then they don't tell you who they are either it is almost like it is some sort of conspiracy going on you know...
 
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LarryP2

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I'm somewhat paranoid for sure... when they have a flyer that tries to make you paranoid about your standing with God then they don't tell you who they are either it is almost like it is some sort of conspiracy going on you know...

There is no doubt that there was and is a conspiracy to disparage and denigrate the Resurrection and replace it with the Sabbath.

That is obvious.

Christianity has always been focused completely on the Resurrection and NEVER on the Sabbath. So this conspiracy that works hard to enslave Christians with an obsolete, irrelevant and defunct rite of Judaism will tell any lie, distort history, lie about what the Bible says, disregard the clear statements of Jesus and the Apostle Paul in order to systematically eliminate the Resurrection and replace it with the Sabbath.

That there is no doubt about their willingness to lie should be a given: The greatest anti-Christian Sabbatarians in history was Ellen White. She is "Exhibit A" in the conspiracy to lie about Christianity. For 50 years, she conducted a massive campaign to lie about Christianity, lie about history, lie about her "visions," lie about the Bible and then she stole other people's books at a truly shocking and staggering level. Her goal was to eliminate the Resurrection and replace it with the Sabbath as Christianity's central doctrine.
 
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FredVB

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God never changes. Yahweh is the same yesterday, today, and forever. With this having basis, there isn't a way logically that God would have a change of mind. Yahweh isn't a respecter of persons. So what God says is right to do for general things in life would be right to always, for anyone. That wouldn't change for anybody or for any time. What God's grace does for believers, through Christ, is provide the atonement with him having borne the penalties for them. Justice is always carried out and it was that way for the believers. They are then to grow in obedience, not to remain with doing anything that is wrong.

The commandment that are for all are in moral behavior. Sabbath itself is not for strict regulation for all, but provision for all letting each other have the rest.
 
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disciple1

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God never changes. Yahweh is the same yesterday, today, and forever. With this having basis, there isn't a way logically that God would have a change of mind. Yahweh isn't a respecter of persons. So what God says is right to do for general things in life would be right to always, for anyone. That wouldn't change for anybody or for any time. What God's grace does for believers, through Christ, is provide the atonement with him having borne the penalties for them. Justice is always carried out and it was that way for the believers. They are then to grow in obedience, not to remain with doing anything that is wrong.

The commandment that are for all are in moral behavior. Sabbath itself is not for strict regulation for all, but provision for all letting each other have the rest.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we must be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
 
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BobRyan

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Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we must be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

Amen!

And for the saints "The LAW of God is written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8... Jer 31:31-33 ..

WE call that "the New Covenant".

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388908, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[/QUOTE]


I thought I already gave it to you here it is again.

I you would like me to quote Romans 8 again - I am happy to do it. :)

As I pointed out with Romans 3 - and in Gal 3 - the purpose of the Law for the lost - is to show that the Law of God still exists, is still binding... it still defines sin - it still shows that the lost need to accept salvation.


Here it is from Gal 3 -
Galatians chapter 3
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

But Gal 3 makes it even more clear here - The LAW of God -- IS scripture AND it shuts up ALL - EVERYONE "under sin" -- as Romans 3 points out - it defines what sin IS.

BEFORE faith -- comes all you have is the law to tell you that you are bound for the second death - and need salvation.
That is not the purpose of the law AFTER you are saved.

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

===================

all of this was already pointed out to us here -

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68387718, member: 235244"]
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


[/QUOTE]
 
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FredVB

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God never changes. Yahweh is the same yesterday, today, and forever. With this having basis, there isn't a way logically that God would have a change of mind. Yahweh isn't a respecter of persons. So what God says is right to do for general things in life would be right to do always, for anyone. That wouldn't change for anybody or for any time. What God's grace does for believers, through Christ, is provide the atonement with him having borne the penalties for them. Justice is always carried out and it was that way for the believers. They are then to grow in obedience, not to remain with doing anything that is wrong.
The commandments that are for all are in moral behavior. Sabbath itself is not for strict regulation for all, but provision for all letting each other have the rest.

disciple1 said:
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we must be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

The law in the Bible convicts of sin. So only in Christ is there salvation from that, to believers with their repentance, from redemption that is with the atonement from Christ. Certainly faith, in Christ, is essential. This is to remove us from sin, not to have us continue in any of it, or to go back to any of it. And we are to grow, with this we are led to see yet more of what is sin among us. And this sin is including what the law was showing as sin in the Bible with convicting. With what Christ bore, those in Christ won't need to be subject to that conviction, yet still the sin that would have that conviction is not for them to keep doing. It is certainly not about their salvation, forum rules should be enough to keep that accusation of it being said to be claimed. There can be more known as may be discussed that involves maturing with turning from more sin that is recognised. And we still don't know it all and there is more for us to learn.

Love had at all will have it shown, from the heart, it won't lead to doing what is contrary to what is known of what Yahweh God said.
 
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Bob S

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Amen!

And for the saints "The LAW of God is written on the heart and on the mind" Heb 8... Jer 31:31-33 ..

WE call that "the New Covenant".

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68388908, member: 235244"]Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.




I you would like me to quote Romans 8 again - I am happy to do it. :)

As I pointed out with Romans 3 - and in Gal 3 - the purpose of the Law for the lost - is to show that the Law of God still exists, is still binding... it still defines sin - it still shows that the lost need to accept salvation.


Here it is from Gal 3 -
Galatians chapter 3
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

But Gal 3 makes it even more clear here - The LAW of God -- IS scripture AND it shuts up ALL - EVERYONE "under sin" -- as Romans 3 points out - it defines what sin IS.

BEFORE faith -- comes all you have is the law to tell you that you are bound for the second death - and need salvation.
That is not the purpose of the law AFTER you are saved.

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

===================

all of this was already pointed out to us here -

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68387718, member: 235244"]
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.





With your snippets of out of context verses you have just declared Paul a liar, too bad you are so blinded to the real truth. Scripture has to be twisted to support your contention that we are under the Israelite old covenant
 
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