God's TEN Commandments: Keep them? or break them?

[LittleLambofJesus]

I, from scratch leave CF.

For how long?



.

 

[LarryP2]

I couldn't tell you exactly but I can give you a starting point. The "Sabbath" starts at sundown on Friday and extends to sundown on Saturday. Some change this to Saturday (time zone, calendar) only which isn't correct via the Bible. In order to keep the Sabbath one must totally refrain from all work and not cause anyone else to work on their behalf which includes all who dwell in the premises of their property. Typically serious Sabbath keepers prepare in advance for the day making sure all chores are done meals needing cooking ar done etc so they won't do any labor. The problem is that in modern society we have providers of services such as water, gas, electric, internet, phone, etc. These services have people working all the time to maintain them and if you use them at all then you are essentially associated with attributing to people working on the Sabbath Day on your behalf. We see SDA here keeping a modified version of the Sabbath that doesn't have to deal with a lot of issues (causing others to work on their behalf).

There have been many hilarious changes in this formula over the years. It has frequently been a theological "moving target." The SDA Church for its first 11 years "kept" a Sabbath that went from 6 pm Friday until 6 pm on Saturday. Until their "Prophet" had a "vision" that changed it to the current "Sundown to Sundown" formula. Unfortunately, all Adventists who died during those first 11 years were not saved, since they "broke" the Sabbath by keeping it improperly.

Oops.

Now, there is a growing recognition among the Adventist "Feast Keeper" movement that using the modern invention of the 7-day week is also erroneous, and does not satisfy the Old Testament requirements. It turns out that the 7-day weekly calendar is a Pagan invention. Ancient Judaism set the Sabbath off the position of the New Moons, which would frequently result in the 4th week of the month having 9 or even ten "make-up" days due to the imprecise correlation between the stages of the moon and a 7-day week. Modern Adventists who worship on the "7th Day Sabbath"(Saturday) are likely worshiping on the "correct" " "7th-day" less than 10 percent of the time. They could be keeping a lunar "Tuesday" or "Wednesday" "holy," and not even know it. None of them are saved, since they have not been worshiping on the "7th Day" as the Old Testament mandates. They are all lost.

Similarly, in the lunisolar Hebrew calendar, Adar Aleph, a 13th lunar month is added seven times every 19 years to the twelve lunar months in its common years to keep its calendar year from drifting through the seasons. And therefore causing your carefully-calculated Sabbath plans to be ruined domino-like. This causes incredible havoc for all of the Feast and Sabbath Calendars, although surely someone will devise a smartphone app that can assist in this monumental issue. A smartphone "Sabbath app" could consider your GPS location, the present date and relationship to the rest of the year, relative humidity, distance from the Centrally-located Temple, and analyze all of these facts based on the several alternative traditions of Judaism. And most of all, giving an audible "heads up" for the onrushing feast and holy days, along with the complex calculations of appropriate burnt offerings for each. Had their Prophet foreseen these issues, they could have "piggy-backed" on Judaism's temporary work-arounds during the loss of a Central Temple, but that would have required full-scale conversion to Judaism.

Oops.

Additionally, the Feast Keepers are honest enough to admit that ALL of the Old Testament ceremonial laws, including the monthly and yearly Sabbaths and the Jewish Feast calendar are all still binding, including the requirement of sacrificial burnt animal offerings presided over by a full-time, ritually-purified Levitical Priesthood at a national and centrally-located Temple (Since ALL of these rituals is precisely what makes the Sabbath "Holy," as Victor C has stressed). No Adventist since the Church's founding has kept the Sabbath "Holy" and all are doomed.

Ooops.

Then there is are sticky-wickets like the International Dateline, which has unfortunately resulted in the present indigestible pickle of Samoan Adventists worshiping on Sunday. At present, Samoan Adventists worship cheek to cheek and shoulder to shoulder with the "harlot of Babylon" and the "Apostate Daughters of the harlot of Babylon." Pursuant to the SDA Church's marvelous "resolution" of the issue, poor Samoans are approaching on bended knee and kissing the ring of the Pope every Sunday. No solution is in sight.
Meanwhile, Northern Scandinavia has a unique and so far unsolved problem of extremely short "days" in the winter and extremely long "days" in the Summer. There is no way of defining when "Sunset" happens to determine when a Sabbath "day" "begins" or "ends." Your Sabbath "day" may be under an hour, or it could be several months long. Nobody knows. It is akin to the medieval arguments over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.
But what is certain is that all Adventists in Norway, Samoa, Sweden and Finland are lost. There is NOTHING ambiguous about the Mosaic Law's strict and precise requirements.

Oops.

The heroic "Adventist Feast Keepers" movement is once again riding to the rescue. First and foremost, they have jettisoned the Church's strained and unpersuasive interpretation of the New Testament that requires - or even allows - Sabbath Keeping. As a result, they are forcibly eliminating Paul and all of the Epistles from the New Testament Canon, and the Gospel according to John (too "Hellenic" in its orientation, therefore "Pagan.") Their Bible will be the Old Testament plus the 3 Synaptic Gospels. All Adventists who have relied in Good Faith upon Paul's Epistles are likely without Salvation. Paul is "Exhibit A" for allowing "Pagan influences" to creep into Christianity which, if properly understood, is only a large sect of Judaism. Adventists should be going through all of the rituals to convert to Judaism, including circumcision. Which presents yet another sticky wicket, given the modern world's sexual equality. Perhaps the Adventists borrow some ideas from Muslim practice of female genital mutilation, or some other modern variant of "circumcising" females.

According to the Preamble of the Exodus Mosaic Law, it was given to the Israelite slaves delivered out of Egyptian captivity. They were destined to settle in the Land of Canaan. The balmy Mediterranean location features days and nights that are roughly equal year around. Because the 4th Commandment was given only to a defined and discrete cultural group, nobody ever anticipated the issues of Samoa and Norway. The Feast Keepers have brilliantly wiggled their way of this particular theological "dead-end street" by declaring that the Earth is Flat, thereby eliminating all of the issues created by the unproven and disruptive Pagan "theory" of a "round Earth." "Theory?" I can hear the skeptics snort. Have YOU actually SEEN a round earth? Or were you "seeing" what you THOUGHT was a lunar landing, which as we all know was a manufactured hoax perpetrated by an elaborate conspiracy, filmed in a TV studio. Can I continue now?

None of these global workaround solutions have yet addressed the massive Sabbath violations created by the internal combustion automobile engine, nearly all forms of modern electronic gadgetry, and many other forms of "work" that Adventists have absent-mindedly allowed over the years. To the complete detriment of their Salvation. In fact, the ubiquity of electronics that are "never fully off" raises exotic questions of the definition of "work." For many Jews, it means shutting all the electricity off in their house. And even if I don't drive my car and park it, there are still computers actively whirring away in the cars ECU, sound, navigation and entertainment systems. They never go "off," because you take your keys out of the ignition. There are computers and vast numbers of sensors that are constantly "working," whether the car is running or not, that are charged against your Sabbath salvation "account." Disconnecting the Battery cables on Friday night does not completely fix the problem. Many modern vehicle computer systems have their own back-up power supply. A true Sabbath Keeper is probably consigned to vehicles that were built before 1973 or so. In a modern automobile, even with the ignition turned off, there is still a massive level of calculation ("work" that you are doing) that would dwarf the resources of King Solomon, using all of his legions of captured Arab Algebra and Calculus experts.

I have proven that most Adventists are not saved because of their lax attitude toward the 4th Commandment, even though they accuse Christians of being "At War with the Ten Commandments."

So are they.

 

[from scratch]

For how long?

Most of April 1st.

 

[BobRyan]

Almost all threads on this section of the board are in the form of 'War against God's Ten Commandments --- or keep them".

But the good news is that there is another thread - about "Bend the Ten Commandments or keep them".

Which gets us to the Baptist Confession of Faith Thread -- #2
#67

(And a case where the one that started that thread - ProgMonk - leaves me to defend the 7 points of the BCF -- of which I only agree with 6 out of that 7).

 

[disciple1]

No one keeps the law anyway, John chapter 7 verse 19 Jesus said has not Moses given you the law yet none of you keeps it.
1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
James chapter 2 verse 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


1 Timothy chapter 1 verse7, 8
They want to be teachers of the law but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

 

[LarryP2]

No one keeps the law anyway, John chapter 7 verse 19 Jesus said has not Moses given you the law yet none of you keeps it.
1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
James chapter 2 verse 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


1 Timothy chapter 1 verse7, 8
They want to be teachers of the law but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Good analysis. Legalists have not the faintest or foggiest idea of how the Mosaic Law actually worked. They THINK Jesus came to "restore" the Law to its "innocent roots." It was too complex and the Sanhedrin's decisions were arbitrary and capricious. They think the "man-made" "interpretations," regulations and "traditions" of the law that had built up over hundreds of years had "perverted" the "God-given" intent of the law, making it onerous and inhuman. They imagine Jesus was so scathing with the Pharisees because of their anal-retentive regulations that "added on" to the Law and made it "impossible to keep it."

I call BS on this silly and naive argument.

This is uninformed, self-flattering, childish and delusional foolishness dreamed up by people who have no idea of how the Jewish legal system worked, or any other legal system works. They want a blank slate.

There has NEVER been a legitimate system of law that could function without "man-made" "interpretations and traditions" and regulations. In EVERY system of law, world-wide, since the beginning of time, the "interpretations and traditions" of the law are as important and mandatory as the original statutes. Legal systems simply cannot function without them. Without written, objective interpretations of the law, law is a dead and ineffective. Why?

Because the detailed regulations and specific interpretations based on unique individual fact patterns allow people to conform their behavior to the law. Without regulations and interpretations, the law is useless as a guide to properly managing your conduct. The average person is left guessing in the dark, SOL.

Without the "regulations and interpretations" decided over time, law degenerates into one of two dysfunctional systems. One system is Tyranny, where ruler can act entirely subjectively, since there are no rules and restrictions on HIS behavior. Or anarchy, where every person can interpret the "law" however they wish and the Law is "enforced" by the good intentions of each individual.

Those outcomes are unacceptable in a legal system (ie: a system of objective "laws" enforced objectively; rather than subjective "man" being ruled by his passions.)

When Jesus and Paul scathingly denounced the Mosaic Law, they NEVER separated out the regulations and interpretations from the original law. NEVER. They knew the regulations and interpretations of the Sabbath law were inseparable from, and just as important as the Ten Commandments. The objective regulation of how much weight could be carried on the Sabbath was inseparable from, and just as important as the 4th Commandment itself. The animal sacrifices necessary to "keep the Sabbath holy" were the subject of binding interpretations over thousands of years. Nobody had to guess what "keep it Holy" meant: Thousands of written rulings and interpretations made it crystal clear.

These objective regulations also "tied the hands" of the Sanhedrin and strongly benefited the average person: Facing a Sabbath-breaking charge and where there were no regulations or prior decisions directly "on point," you were automatically found "Not Guilty." The Sanhedrin was meticulous about restraining itself with prior decisions, eliminating their subjective discretion and flagrant abuse of power. The alternative is complete subjectivity and "follow their gut" about whether something was right or wrong. The Mosaic Law is simply dysfunctional without the Sanhedrin, the Talmudic and Responsa rulings and regulations, and all of the "institutional memory" built up over time. Anyone studying the Sanhedrin and its written decisions will be deeply impressed about the orderliness, wisdom and restraint that reeks from every written decision. THAT is how "law" "works," at its fundamental best. The American legal system is based very closely on the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin literally defined "Law."

Legalists make a laughably-absurd claim that only the "ceremonial" laws were nullified by the cross. Attorneys often have the sad opportunity of listening to layperson's unformed views on the court system. A familiar argument is that the procedural rules that every court follows are not as important as "the law itself." Lay people casually refer to the Rules of Civil Procedure as "technicalities." Go ahead argue that in front of a Judge your next time in court. Don't blame me when you get hauled off to jail in handcuffs for contempt. You will find out how important "mere" "technical," "procedural" and "ceremonial rules" are. The hard way.

The Mosaic Law was not functional without the "ceremonial" law. Similarly, the US legal system is not functional without the Rules of Civil Procedure.

By childishly crowing that the Cross only ended the regulations and accrued interpretations of the law, legalists have annihilated any objective guide to keeping the Law and made it entirely subjective for the whim of each individual. The Law means whatever each individual legalist says it means. Their theory is that the Cross only eliminated objective legal standards. I can now crow self-righteously that I "keep the Sabbath," and so therefore I do. You disagree? Who elected you judge? I can do anything I want on the Sabbath, since nobody has a better right to define "to keep it holy" than I do. I can assert that I DO "keep in holy," since there is nobody that can overrule me and no objective standard to guide me. Therefore, I can "keep the Sabbath Holy," if I want, by running around naked in the woods, flying a kite. I can work on the Sabbath if I want, as long as I really enjoy my work: it really isn't like "work," therefore I can choose not to define it as "work." Those who argue incessantly that the Sabbath is still in effect keep it no holiser than those who argue it isn't in effect! Everyone can "keep the Sabbath," however they want, and they are right. That's all it takes: Expressing some half-baked assent for the concept in a vague way, generally speaking. And pretending like your subjective conception of it is being "Kept." Being in favor of the Sabbath is like being in favor of motherhood, apple pie, and baseball. Nobody is going to check.

A comical incident occurred when Adventism first decided to "keep the Sabbath." They decided the Sabbath "Day" went from 6 pm Friday till 6 pm Saturday. Where did they find that idea? Someone presumably experienced a "gut" feeling. They did no research on the written Jewish opinions that plainly and precisely defined the "day" of the Sabbath "day." They ignored the Sabbath experts! And then made stuff up as they went along! Eventually, someone's "gut" "felt" the 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday rule wasn't "working." Their "gut" informed them it should be "sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday." Therefore it was decreed to be so! Just like that! Presto! If you thought the prior rule was just fine the way it was, did anyone listen to you? Did anyone take your views into consideration? Nope, the Prophet's gut had "told" her in a "vision," therefore it was decreed to be so. Well, can I SEE the vision to decide if I can agree with the contents of the vision, or that it was correctly written down? Nope. Either take the Prophet's word for what she saw in the vision, or reject it. If you reject it, LEAVE.

If I claim to keep the Old Testament Law, but completely ignore all of the interpretations and rulings of the 3,000 years of the Judaic legal system , I am just indulging in laughable self-flattery and sophisticated self-deception. My gut feeling is my guide. I can claim I have traveled to the moon just as plausibly as claim I "keep the Sabbath." Either one can be true, just as long as I say so. And my gut agrees. Can YOU consult with my gut, to guide you in your keeping the Sabbath? Nope. Only I can. Only one of us is right. I know it is me. Cuz whenever I experience an especially-satisfying bowel movement, it is a sure sign I have properly kept the Sabbath.

When Paul and Jesus were referring to the "Law," it was the whole logically-interlaced shebang, one seamless and united body of Old Testament law, interpretations, rulings, regulations and procedural rules that gave equal objective force to ALL 613 Commandments ("Mitzvot"), ALL of which are equally important and equally binding. Those "Mitzvot" are logically-interlocking and enmeshed and vital to each other. They cannot be subjectively separated out, one by one, based on a whimsical and fleeting gut feeling. Or to be used as an offensive weapon to flatter ourselves with preening self-righteousness. All of them need an objective tribunal to interpret, following objective standards, and to produce written rulings so that the average person can conform their behavior to the law. And the Sanhedrin is guided in making wise decisions.

Law ALWAYS has objective, knowable, and enforceable standards. Or it isn't "Law." By contrast the New Testament and the powerful Holy Spirit constantly guide us and directing us to do the right thing minute-by-minute is radically-different and incompatible with an external and objective LAW. Unlimited and unqualified forgiveness and the mercy of the Gospel properly understood is a bonus. Modern legalists who wish to denigrate the effect of the cross and the Resurrection in nullifying their least-favorite parts of the Mosaic Law in essence want us to take seriously their self-flattery and self-delusion that they are "keeping the Sabbath."

It would not be wise to enable them.

 

[LarryP2]

PART 2

In my last installment I argued it is necessary to have objectively-defined "Law" and an objective enforcement agency if one is going to have "Law" as a legitimate behavioral-guidance system. Without all of the components of what is meant by "Law," humans degenerate alternatively into either anarchy, or tyranny. Religious legalists have cleverly announced that the Mosaic Law (particularly the Sabbath obligation) is still in effect, and was not nullified by the cross. At the same time, they have renounced all of the "ceremonial" laws and all of the gigantic body of interpretative law and regulations that Judaism carefully developed over 3,000 years to make the application of the Sabbath law as fair and objective as humanly possible. Sabbatarians aim to "keep the law" and the Sabbath obligation based on no apparent objective standard. Whether they are "keeping the law" or not is to be guided by a gut-feeling interpretation of what the written Mosaic Law "means" to them. That sounds superficially appealing, but you will see later why it isn't. We know they do not consult with, nor are they guided by the many thousands of Talmudic and Responsa interpretations and regulations of the Decalogue or Levitical Law. That means in practice, whatever they say the law is, that is what it means. The "Law" is simply their subjective "gut feeling." That sounds superficially appealing, but wait for the "fine print."

Partial New Covenant/Old Covenant Advocates' solution to the complete absence of objective interpretation authority is extremely sinister. After completely renouncing and rejecting the gigantic body of Judaism's written decisions objectively interpreting the Sabbath duties by some of the most brilliant minds in history, you must face the question: What enforcement mechanism replaces the Sanhedrin with its long written record of objective decision-making? When and where does the sinner have the opportunity to personally present their side of the story and call witnesses and present their completely-subjective interpretation of the Sabbath law, so that they can make the best argument they were complying with their own definition?

The Sanhedrin and the Second Temple legal system has been replaced by the Investigative Judgment ("IJ") and a theory of partial atonement on the Cross. This is devastatingly bad news.

Under the Mosaic Legal system, only your life and liberty were at stake if you violated the Sabbath, and you were summonsed in to appear before the Sanhedrin to offer a defense. You could read and understand all of the prior objective rulings ahead of time on the subject, and make your best argument accordingly. You could see, hear and confront witnesses against you. You could call witnesses on your behalf. You could cross-examine adverse witnesses. And offer a closing argument on your own behalf. You had a fighting chance.

Under the IJ system, your salvation and eternity are at stake and completely up in the air and at risk 24/7! Not just one discreet and well-defined accusation of Sabbath-breaking, but an ongoing judgment on all of your lifetime Sabbath keeping/breaking. Your completely-subjective interpretation of the Sabbath commandment is also being judged. In silence. Your Salvation is based entirely on whether you have "done enough" in interpreting and following your completely-subjective interpretation of the 4th Commandment. With no hearing for you to argue your case, present defenses, present favorable witnesses, confront and cross-examine adverse witnesses, or beg for leniency and mercy. You hear your "verdict," with no chance of appeal, and it is eternally binding. Both your subjective "gut" feeling regarding what the 4th commandment means, and whether your best efforts at complying with the Sabbath are adequate; are being judged. When and how and what: you have no idea.

Are you feeling lucky yet?

Ironically, in summarily rejecting the entire Mosaic legal system other than their favored Ten Commandments; Legalists have conjured up a horrifying replacement system that is many magnitudes less fair, less merciful, less objective and with FAR FAR more at stake than the Sanhedrin system in effect during the ministry of Jesus! There is no information being generated by the Heavenly Court regarding its ruling during previous hearings on the Investigative Judgment docket. There are no written decisions to guide your Sabbath-keeping performance. You cannot compare your case with other people's cases, to find out which way the Heavenly Court is leaning on various subjective interpretations of the 4th Commandment, nor how it has ruled on on the specific facts of the cases of previous heaven seekers. You get no prior notice of when your "number has been, or will be called." Everything is simply unknown. You are left guessing about innumerable issues, with your entire Eternity at stake.

Your case is being decided on unknown and undefined evidence presented by unknown witnesses, or just as a matter of complete whimsy. There are no objective standards. There are no published regulations to suggest adequate Sabbath-keeping techniques. Or to suggest some adequate and workable "Sabbath Keeping" interpretations. No indications of whether you have achieved the necessary obedience to the 4th Commandment. There can be NO assurance that you presently are, or have been complying with the Sabbath. The Investigative Judgment is simply a heavenly tyranny coupled with earthly anarchy. It would be hard to imagine a worse system. You would be correct in thinking such a system was designed by a mentally-ill person. Like someone with a severe head injury. Well!

It was.

The Investigative Judgment is a fickle, whimsical, and terroristic salvation-judgment system that is FAR less fair than earthly court systems where you contest a mere parking ticket. Human beings have built a court system that outperforms God's system of Justice. The human system is far fairer, with far less at stake, than the Investigative Judgment where your potential Eternity is at Stake.

This is the sinister "fine print" of the noxious Sabbath Spam posts. Sabbath Keeping is a tempting but fleeting mirage, and leads logically to a lifelong terroristic eternity guessing game, based on your personal talent as an interpreter of the 4th Commandment.

or......

The Gospel and the Resurrection. FINISHED and certain for eternity. Unleashing unlimited and unqualified forgiveness and reconciliation for your human mistakes and errors and sins, but guarantees total confidence in the ultimate outcome. Unleashing a hurricane force of Godly Love. Coupled with the Day-to-Day power and guidance of the Holy Spirit, giving you the power to comply with the Two Great and simple Commandments of Christ. That's it.

Choose wisely.

Please!

Choose wisely.

 

[BobRyan]

No one keeps the law anyway, John chapter 7 verse 19 Jesus said has not Moses given you the law yet none of you keeps it.
1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
James chapter 2 verse 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Romans 8:6-8 - only the lost person "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

1John 5:1-4 says the saints are those who "KEEP God's Commandments"

So also does Rev 14:12 say this.

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

--

it is no wonder then that even pro-Sunday sources affirm God's TEN Commandments for the saints today as we see in the list below this signature line. They argue in favor of the following 7 points.


[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].


I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[from scratch]

Romans 8:6-8 - only the lost person "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

This isn't talking about the lost person.

1John 5:1-4 says the saints are those who "KEEP God's Commandments"

And you're using this passage with an SDA code definition.

So also does Rev 14:12 say this.

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Same as above while throwing out Jesus and the cross. You're really saying Jesus and the cross don't matter. No I'm not putting words in your mouth. Remember the only thing that matters is keeping the Ten Commandments. There isn't any salvation to be had doing so.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

Certainly we acknowledge the existence of the law.

--

it is no wonder then that even pro-Sunday sources affirm God's TEN Commandments for the saints today as we see in the list below this signature line. They argue in favor of the following 7 points.


[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3

This is untrue regardless what you make your religious sources to say.

2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.

Moses says no. That's good enough for me. Deut 5.So your religious sources can say what ever suits their fancy. I think - no know you don't understand them and use only part of what they say and practice.

3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.

And there it changes. Quotes have been provided by another poster.

4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God

I question this.

5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant

Moral law maybe - the Law issued at Sinai - absolutely not according to Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:6.

6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.

True they don't oppose grace but they fully don't allow for it. There are no exceptions found within the Ten Commandments. They're absolute - thou shalt and shalt not...

7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].

You're the one bending and editing them.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8:6-8 - only the lost person "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

1John 5:1-4 says the saints are those who "KEEP God's Commandments"

So also does Rev 14:12 say this.

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

--

it is no wonder then that even pro-Sunday sources affirm God's TEN Commandments for the saints today as we see in the list below this signature line. They argue in favor of the following 7 points.


[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].


I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.[/FONT][/FONT]

This isn't talking about the lost person.And you're using this passage with an SDA code

Ranting against other denominations does not solve your problem raised by the Bible itself.

Even the pro-Sunday sources listed below rejected your flawed arguments against God's TEN Commandments.

.Same as above while throwing out Jesus and the cross.

There is no "throwing out Jesus and the cross" in the post above - so you 'make it up' -- apparently you prefer to both "fiction" and "condemning other denominations" as your response to the Bible and to the fact that so many pro-Sunday organizations refute your failed solution.

Some of us believe "in practice" that Jesus is God and that God is the author of the text of scripture as in those statements quoted in my post above - you appear to reject this -- how sad.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

This isn't talking about the lost person.And you're using this passage with an SDA code definition.Same as above while throwing out Jesus and the cross. You're really saying Jesus and the cross don't matter. No I'm not putting words in your mouth. Remember the only thing that matters is keeping the Ten Commandments.

All of this cultish obsession with, and over-emphasis of the Ten Commandments is an indicator of how far SDA is from mainstream Christianity. Walter Martin was conned big time in an extremely well-choreographed and organized wave of deception. Adventism temporarily pulled out the stops to avoid the "cult" label, which would have been devastating. It even published a extraordinarily deceptive book to snow Martin called "Questions on Doctrine." which was temporarily in print, to get Martin off their back. Martin was constantly pressing them for obvious abandonment of the Book aftr its deceitful purpose was accomplished.

That's why when Bob deceptively insists on their "Fundamental Beliefs," it is a skillful and deceitful diversionary tactic. The FB in no way honestly reflect what their REAL beliefs are. That's why when I posted the bizarre and insane Ellen White quote, where she literally making the Ten Commandments into God, he deceptively doesn't answer or respond. That's the reason every single post of his is about the Ten Commandments: There simply is NOTHING even close to the importance of them. The Ten Commandments FAR FAR outstrip Jesus Christ, the Cross and the Resurrection in importance. Jesus is basically Satan's brother, and they are equally powerful and equally important. For over 100 years after the founding of the cult, outright heretical Arianism was taught. That has been replaced by a deceptive "Tri-theism" that grudgingly recognizes the Divinity of Christ without taking too much focus off of the Ten Commandments, which surpass everything else by many degrees of magnitude.

THAT'S the deceitful reason for the mono-focus on the Sabbath. Virtually NOTHING was accomplished on the Cross and with the Resurrection. THAT'S why little kids are discouraged from even having a few jelly beans on Easter. Jesus's primary purpose on earth was to restore the Sabbath, after it had been "corrupted" by rules and regulations and "man-made" interpretations. ANYTHING that points out that Christians from virtually the first Sunday after the Resurrection changed their Day of Worship is deceitfully ignored or dishonestly downplayed. Jesus's crucifixion is something we are to emulate with perfect Sabbath Keeping and vegetarianism. Adventism in reality is the slow drip of Chinese water torture, a slow death by a thousand cuts. It is very very depressing.

Why this is allowed on a Christian web site just baffles me. Plainly, the Apostles pulled out the stops to condemn both the First Century Judaizing heresy, and the Second century Ebionite heresy, which are both virtually identical to Adventism.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist[/ur

 

[BobRyan]

All of this cultish obsession ...

I do see that in your posts. Where else do you see it??

You quote Catholic sources - as if you never read them. Yet they make "the 7 point list" you are so at war against.

Originally Posted by LarryP2

CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

​

You quote Catholic sources? They sure do love those SEVEN points from post #2

Wonderful! Me too!

===========================================

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29


(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.




Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.






The two views state their positions as “The Catholic church fully endorses the Sabbath commandment as edited by the Catholic Church" vs "the Catholic church fully endorsed the Sabbath commandment as worded by God at Sinai"
.

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".


page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"



====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

[FONT=&quot]====================end quote
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[LarryP2]

I do see that in your posts. Where else do you see it??

You quote Catholic sources - as if you never read them. Yet they make "the 7 point list" you are so at war against.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

I can sympathies with the horror that you must feel about the Truth, but your REAL "source" for your total fixation and worship of the Ten Commandment tablets does not come from the Protestant preachers that you deceitfully cite. Nor did the Catholic Catechism. They had NOTHING to do with your sect's horrifying restoration of the Ebionite/Judaizing heresy. What appalls you and revolts you is the true source of your Ten Commandments worship. It is the name you are simply too embarrassed to admit or acknowledge. Your TRUE source for your heretical obsession and worship of the Ten Commandments was a brain-damaged, desperately mentally ill woman barely past puberty that probably had epileptic seizures that caused her bizarre and insane "visions." You are extremely embarrassed by this, because it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the founder of your Church was a pathological liar, an inveterate thief who stole 90 percent or more of what she wrote, and a horrific False Prophet. Here are the actual incredibly dishonest and deceitful words that are the source of your discredited anti-Christian heresy:

"E.G. White stated, “The holy Sabbath looked glorious- a halo of glory was all around it."(Early Writings of E.G. White, p. 33, also Desire of the Ages p.763)

“I saw the Ten Commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were Four and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious[bless and do not curse] a halo of glory was all around it." (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 33, Official Adventist publication)

These are the words of an obviously extremely mentally ill woman and the founder of your Church. THAT is your source. Quit being so embarrassed and appalled about your REAL source.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

 

[BobRyan]

1. First Larry opens with classic "factless Larry rant" which must be deleted for the sake of the reader. #628

2. Then he unwittingly makes my case for point 7 (of the 7 point list #2 ) for pro-Sunday sources BCF and WCF. #182

And so of course - I keep reminding him that "bending the 4th commandment to point to week-day-1" is the 7th point in my list on post #2. (see this in #114 )

3. Then he makes the case for all 7 of those points by pointing us to RCC sources #186 as if he had never read the RCC position on this subject.


4. Then FromScratch argues that a verbatim quote from D.L. Moody's major point on the 4th commandment is "misleading" simply because Moody is making all 7 of the points in my list. #741


5. Even ProgMonk cannot make the case stick that the term "Sabbath" in the NT does not apply to "week-day-1" #184

then they suppose that by repeating these flawed tactics "often" it will befuddle someone who is an objective Bible student.

Who goes for such tactics?.

 

[LarryP2]

This isn't talking about the lost person.And you're using this passage with an SDA code definition.Same as above while throwing out Jesus and the cross. You're really saying Jesus and the cross don't matter.

You are onto a very important point here: With Adventism, the Resurrection simply never happened in the sense that Christianity focuses obsessively on the event. You can never, ever get an Adventist-Sabbath-Porn Huckster to even talk about it! There's no money there, no Gullible Christians to fleece. The mono-focus on the Sabbath Porn Product is just a concerted effort to divert gullible Christians into a cruel system of lies and bondage. The best part of it is that there are now literally hundreds, if not thousands of anti-Adventist websites and scores of internet ministries ran by ex-Adventists to offer real assistance in fleeing the vile heresy. And they are growing rapidly. I am in contact with several of them, and they are barely keeping up with the 300,000 a year stampede to the doors presently going on. One ministry just in Phoenix has 10,000 ex-Adventists as members. They just bought a new Church building and have four Sunday worship sessions. Entire Ebionite Cult Churches are jettisoning their Seventh Day Adventist mother ship and returning to Christianity and the Resurrection.

The internet has been devastating to destructive cults, and particularly the modern-day Ebionite one.

 

[BobRyan]

1. First Larry opens with classic "factless Larry rant" which must be deleted for the sake of the reader. #628

2. Then he unwittingly makes my case for point 7 (of the 7 point list #2 ) for pro-Sunday sources BCF and WCF. #182

And so of course - I keep reminding him that "bending the 4th commandment to point to week-day-1" is the 7th point in my list on post #2. (see this in #114 )

3. Then he makes the case for all 7 of those points by pointing us to RCC sources #186 as if he had never read the RCC position on this subject.


4. Then FromScratch argues that a verbatim quote from D.L. Moody's major point on the 4th commandment is "misleading" simply because Moody is making all 7 of the points in my list. #741


5. Even ProgMonk cannot make the case stick that the term "Sabbath" in the NT does not apply to "week-day-1" #184

then they suppose that by repeating these flawed tactics "often" it will befuddle someone who is an objective Bible student.

Who goes for such tactics?.

Here is where the war against all 7 points made in ProgMonk's thread come out and show their real agenda.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

Here is where the war against all 7 points made in ProgMonk's thread come out and show their real agenda.

in Christ,

Bob

The real agenda is that NOBODY nowadays keeps the Sabbath. There are those that are honest enough to admit that it is impossible. And then there are those that pretend that it is possible by completely ignoring half of it. Seventh Day Adventists have MILLIONS of people employed as their "manservants and maidservants" all over the world, working every Sabbath to make the products Adventists buy, which pays the wages of those hard-working Sabbath Breaking "servants." So everyone knows that ANY debate about the Sabbath is purely academic and there is no possibility that ANYBODY comes anywhere NEAR keeping it. Nobody has kept the Sabbath probably in at least 30 years.

NOBODY KEEPS THE SABBATH.

 

[BobRyan]

Apparently nobody takes your posts seriously - on this section of the board. How have you managed that so fast?

 

[LarryP2]

Apparently nobody takes your posts seriously - on this section of the board. How have you managed that so fast?

Actually I have received 1000's of up-votes on my "Reputation" page, as well as 460 highly-complementary notes. Apparently, people are getting fed up with being emotionally-bullied by hypocritical and anti-Christian Adventist Sabbath Product™©® hucksters. The Old "you aren't saved unless you keep the Sabbath" heresy is being firmly rejected around here lately, wouldn't you say?

How are you doing?

 

[disciple1]

11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.