The only question regarding Matthew 24:15

[BABerean2]

well NO.


4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

This piece seems to be dealing with believers not Israel. The gospel being preached in the whole world and the end will come.
Then it seems to repeat going into more detail.


15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.


22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.


26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.


29 “Immediately after the distress of those days


“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

this piece seems to be focusing on Israel, Judea, the Sabbath. and ends with the OT symbolism of a nation that must be Israel going into Darkness. Calamity, captivity, destruction which history seems to bare out.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven , with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

My original question is, will history repeat or is verse 30 the next thing to happen. Because of Daniel, Revelations and Thessalonians it seems the desolation is going to happen again with the anti Christ showing up. really not sure.

I guess we could argue about where the first half ends and the second half starts, except that I am not really sure myself.

If you read the entire post that this quote came from, you saw how the Apostle Paul confirmed in the book of Acts that he fulfilled part of the text during his persecution of the early Church.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that Paul fulfilled this part of the Olivet Discourse?


The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.


Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.


Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.


Are you saying Jesus did not answer the disciple's first question?
Do you think He just ignored their first question?



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Many people only see one question, because it fits their doctrine.

How many question marks are in the King James version of Matt. 24:3?

 

[dougangel]

I guess we could argue about where the first half ends and the second half starts, except that I am not really sure myself.

If you read the entire post that this quote came from, you saw how the Apostle Paul confirmed in the book of Acts that he fulfilled part of the text during his persecution of the early Church.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that Paul fulfilled this part of the Olivet Discourse?


The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.


Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.


Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.


Are you saying Jesus did not answer the disciple's first question?
Do you think He just ignored their first question?



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Many people only see one question, because it fits their doctrine.

How many question marks are in the King James version of Matt. 24:3?


I guess we could argue about where the first half ends and the second half starts, except that I am not really sure myself.

If you read the entire post that this quote came from, you saw how the Apostle Paul confirmed in the book of Acts that he fulfilled part of the text during his persecution of the early Church.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that Paul fulfilled this part of the Olivet Discourse?


The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.


Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.


Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.


Are you saying Jesus did not answer the disciple's first question?
Do you think He just ignored their first question?



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



Many people only see one question, because it fits their doctrine.

How many question marks are in the King James version of Matt. 24:3?

[/QUOTE]
I don't know why you are bringing that up as I said in a previous posts that it had 2 questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
""Mathew 24 is a controversial prophecy. Many people have different interpretations of it. It jumps around. that is not every thing Christ says happens one after another. And the language used, raises questions.
I still have questions about it.
There are 2 contexts or questions asked
when will the temple be destroyed ?
when will be the end of the age ?

I said in post 84 it has two questions. What are you going on about.
It's a repeating prophecy so there is stuff about the temple in the 2nd half.

 

[dougangel]

sorry repeat

 

[BABerean2]

I don't know why you are bringing that up as I said in a previous posts that it had 2 questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
""Mathew 24 is a controversial prophecy. Many people have different interpretations of it. It jumps around. that is not every thing Christ says happens one after another. And the language used, raises questions.
I still have questions about it.
There are 2 contexts or questions asked
when will the temple be destroyed ?
when will be the end of the age ?[/QUOTE]

What I saw was the following...

BABerean2 said: ↑
Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

I thought your response was... "well No."

..........................................................................

All I can say at this point is, I am sorry if I misunderstood your response and I did not mean to offend.
I do not need any more enemies.

Respectfully,

 

[Notrash]

Or; many people see 2 questions because it fits their doctrine of an end of the world. The correct rendering is what shall be the signs of thy coming and the end of the "AGE".

What age were THEY referring to and asking about?

What "latter days" and "latter ends" were prophecied in Deut 5:25,26; 31:29; 32:20,29 Dan 10:14; & Gen 49:1-10?

Asking several aspects of the same question was possibly a more common way of communicating in hebrew thought than what we have now in american thought due to their familiarity with hebrew parralelism. Or, they simply wanted to cover all the bases while they were making this question.

When shall this or these things be; the destructiin of the temple and the signs of thy coming to end this age?

How does deut 32:42 say that God/Jesus would come to administer vengeance against his enemies? (NKJV)

Though I appealed to one of a few similar renderings for that verse, because it is most clear; I'm not a NKJV only advocate.

SURELY, part of your defense of there being two questions and two subject matters referred to in matt 24:1-3 isn't due to the number of question marks in the KJV,? IS IT?

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Many people only see one question, because it fits their doctrine.

How many question marks are in the King James version of Matt. 24:3?


[/COLOR]

 

[dougangel]

I don't know why you are bringing that up as I said in a previous posts that it had 2 questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
""Mathew 24 is a controversial prophecy. Many people have different interpretations of it. It jumps around. that is not every thing Christ says happens one after another. And the language used, raises questions.
I still have questions about it.
There are 2 contexts or questions asked
when will the temple be destroyed ?
when will be the end of the age ?

What I saw was the following...

BABerean2 said: ↑
Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

I thought your response was... "well No."

..........................................................................

All I can say at this point is, I am sorry if I misunderstood your response and I did not mean to offend.
I do not need any more enemies.

Respectfully,


[/QUOTE]
Boy oh boy, you sent me that study and one of the main contexts of it was there were 2 questions which I already said I believe there are!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then one of the reasons they say the discourse is easy to understand that:
""Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?""

My answer is, NO the temple happens from verse 15 -18
It does jump around.
verses 4 - 14 seem to be dealing with believers. Words like faith, the gospel preached to the whole world and it says the end will come. FINISHED

verses 15 starts with the desolation words like Judea, Sabbath seems to be dealing with the Jews and the end comes.FINISHED
It repeats
So no it doesn't answer the temple rocks destroyed in the first half.

 

[dougangel]

Or; many people see 2 questions because it fits their doctrine of an end of the world. The correct rendering is what shall be the signs of thy coming and the end of the "AGE".

What age were THEY referring to and asking about?

What "latter days" and "latter ends" were prophecied in Deut 5:25,26; 31:29; 32:20,29 Dan 10:14; & Gen 49:1-10?

Asking several aspects of the same question was possibly a more common way of communicating in hebrew thought than what we have now in american thought due to their familiarity with hebrew parralelism. Or, they simply wanted to cover all the bases while they were making this question.

When shall this or these things be; the destructiin of the temple and the signs of thy coming to end this age?

How does deut 32:42 say that God/Jesus would come to administer vengeance against his enemies? (NKJV)

Though I appealed to one of a few similar renderings for that verse, because it is most clear; I'm not a NKJV only advocate.

SURELY, part of your defense of there being two questions and two subject matters referred to in matt 24:1-3 isn't due to the number of question marks in the KJV,? IS IT?

If you look at all the versions Matthew Mark and luke
it makes it clear there are two questions

They are looking at the temple and Jesus says these rocks will be strewn down.
The disciples ask when will this happen ? and what are the signs of the end of the age?

 

[BABerean2]

If you look at all the versions Matthew Mark and luke
it makes it clear there are two questions

They are looking at the temple and Jesus says these rocks will be strewn down.
The disciples ask when will this happen ? and what are the signs of the end of the age?

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint.

I never know what people will come up with sometimes.

I had one person on this forum say Luke 21:24 is a future event.


Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Berean777]

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint.

I never know what people will come up with sometimes.

I had one person on this forum say Luke 21:24 is a future event.


Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It is true this event started in 70AD when many Jews fell by the sword and were led away into captivity. John wrote his revelations into captivity on the island of Patmos so that portion was during the 1st century. Basically after 70AD the Jews were dispersed in the diaspora of the nations of the world.

That being said the next phrase doesn't encompass the Jerusalem that was burnt down, that is, Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. It is clear that Jesus is not talking about the Jerusalem that got burnt down in one day, rather the event that he is talking about encompasses a timeframe until a future fulfilment where the phrase UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES BE FULFILLED.

Three question that arise are:

1) Who is Jerusalem that Jesus is talking about?
2) What is happening during the timeframe of the gentiles being fulfilled?
3) what is the context that Jesus is talking about that needs to happen in order for the timeframe of the Gentiles to be fulfilled.

If we start from 3) we have to establish that Jesus is talking about the preaching of the gospel to the unbelieving gentile nations of the world. The preaching to first the Gentiles needs to be fulfilled.

One important thing to remember is that the gospel that was intended for the Jewish people went out to the gentile nations because the Jews rejected Christ. The phrase the last shall be first and the first shall be last can be rephrased as follows:

The Gentiles being the last will be the first to be the recipients of the gospel and the Jews who were the first will be the last to be the recepients the gospel.

To answer 3) we need to understand that the Jews according to the future prophesy must come as the 11th hour workmen. Obviously this portion of Luke 21:24 is future because the Gentiles have had the gospel for the last almost 2000 years.

Question 2) leads itself to th context that the timeframe alluded to is the preaching of the gospel to the gentile nations of the world to employ the 3rd, 6th and 9th hour workmen to take up the labour.

Jerusalem in this case is not a city as parsay but is alluding to the Jewish peoples of Jerusalem who were originally displaced in the diaspora mentioned in the initial verse: when the Jews fell by the sword and the remaining got dispersed and taken into captivity into all the nations of the world.

Question 1) is easy to answer now because since the first became last the Gentiles who took the place of the Jews who were the intended recipients became trodden down so to speak, meaning dispossessed of their inheritance for the time allotted UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles. The Jews because of their unbelief are trodden down and this statement by Jesus says it all:

Matthew 8:11-12
And I say unto you, That many GENTILES shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom THE JEWS shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So note the versus above does not only allude to 70AD.

 

[BABerean2]

It is true this event started in 70AD when many Jews fell by the sword and were led away into captivity. John wrote his revelations into captivity on the island of Patmos so that portion was during the 1st century. Basically after 70AD the Jews were dispersed in the diaspora of the nations of the world.

That being said the next phrase doesn't encompass the Jerusalem that was burnt down, that is, Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. It is clear that Jesus is not talking about the Jerusalem that got burnt down in one day, rather the event that he is talking about encompasses a timeframe until a future fulfilment where the phrase UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES BE FULFILLED.

Three question that arise are:

1) Who is Jerusalem that Jesus is talking about?
2) What is happening during the timeframe of the gentiles being fulfilled?
3) what is the context that Jesus is talking about that needs to happen in order for the timeframe of the Gentiles to be fulfilled.

If we start from 3) we have to establish that Jesus is talking about the preaching of the gospel to the unbelieving gentile nations of the world. The preaching to first the Gentiles needs to be fulfilled.

One important thing to remember is that the gospel that was intended for the Jewish people went out to the gentile nations because the Jews rejected Christ. The phrase the last shall be first and the first shall be last can be rephrased as follows:

The Gentiles being the last will be the first to be the recipients of the gospel and the Jews who were the first will be the last to be the recepients the gospel.

To answer 3) we need to understand that the Jews according to the future prophesy must come as the 11th hour workmen. Obviously this portion of Luke 21:24 is future because the Gentiles have had the gospel for the last almost 2000 years.

Question 2) leads itself to th context that the timeframe alluded to is the preaching of the gospel to the gentile nations of the world to employ the 3rd, 6th and 9th hour workmen to take up the labour.

Jerusalem in this case is not a city as parsay but is alluding to the Jewish peoples of Jerusalem who were originally displaced in the diaspora mentioned in the initial verse: when the Jews fell by the sword and the remaining got dispersed and taken into captivity into all the nations of the world.

Question 1) is easy to answer now because since the first became last the Gentiles who took the place of the Jews who were the intended recipients became trodden down so to speak, meaning dispossessed of their inheritance for the time allotted UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles. The Jews because of their unbelief are trodden down and this statement by Jesus says it all:

Matthew 8:11-12
And I say unto you, That many GENTILES shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom THE JEWS shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So note the versus above does not only allude to 70AD.

It looks like we may have a difference of opinion here.

Because I do not hold to the pretrib doctrine, it means the last Gentile will become part of the Church on the day Christ returns at His Second Coming.

We have the 144,000 Jews coming to faith in the Book of Revelation. Sadly, that is a very small remnant.

The city of Jerusalem is described as having the spirit of Sodom about the time Christ returns.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Gentiles did not take the place of the Jews. They were the branches grafted in among the faithful Israelite branches of the Olive tree in Romans chapter 11. The Gentiles took the place of the branches broken off because of unbelief.

Paul started Romans chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites, those who bowed to Baal, and the remnant of 7,000 who did not.

Paul ends the chapter with two groups of Israelites, the part blinded to the Gospel, and the Election who had accepted Christ as their Messiah.

Romans 11:26 describes the manner "so" (Greek- houto) in which the branches broken off may be grafted back into the Olive Tree of faithful Israelites.

My wife and I support two ministries evangelizing the Jewish people now, Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah.

We believe the time for evangelizing all peoples is now, because God is no longer a respecter of persons.

There is no difference between an atheist descendant of Jacob in the modern nation of Israel and a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest.
They both need Christ in the same way.

 

[dougangel]

Three question that arise are:

1) Who is Jerusalem that Jesus is talking about?
2) What is happening during the timeframe of the gentiles being fulfilled?
3) what is the context that Jesus is talking about that needs to happen in order for the timeframe of the Gentiles to be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 37
11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the SovereignLordsays: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.

 

[Berean777]

It looks like we may have a difference of opinion here.

Because I do not hold to the pretrib doctrine, it means the last Gentile will become part of the Church on the day Christ returns at His Second Coming.

We have the 144,000 Jews coming to faith in the Book of Revelation. Sadly, that is a very small remnant.

The city of Jerusalem is described as having the spirit of Sodom about the time Christ returns.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Gentiles did not take the place of the Jews. They were the branches grafted in among the faithful Israelite branches of the Olive tree in Romans chapter 11. The Gentiles took the place of the branches broken off because of unbelief.

Paul started Romans chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites, those who bowed to Baal, and the remnant of 7,000 who did not.

Paul ends the chapter with two groups of Israelites, the part blinded to the Gospel, and the Election who had accepted Christ as their Messiah.

Romans 11:26 describes the manner "so" (Greek- houto) in which the branches broken off may be grafted back into the Olive Tree of faithful Israelites.

My wife and I support two ministries evangelizing the Jewish people now, Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah.

We believe the time for evangelizing all peoples is now, because God is no longer a respecter of persons.

There is no difference between an atheist descendant of Jacob in the modern nation of Israel and a naked native living in the Amazon rain forest.
They both need Christ in the same way.

I think the message I wanted to highlight firstly is that Luke 21:24 is not only first century events but entails the future as well. Therefore it needs to also encompass the Jews who would also come along.

Yes I agree with you that many Jews have been graced by Christ in that they have come by faith owing to your and your wife's fabulous works and others who want to share the gospel with them.

You have to bare in mind what Jesus said that there will come a time according to the parable of the sower that the first to receive the gospel, the Jewish peoples in general will come as the last, meaning 11th hour workmen. This will not be a one there and one over there conversion. We are talking of the Jews coming as part of the church, therefore an extension and on continuance to the existing church where they are being handed the baton so to speak for them to take the lead and be rallied behind in numbers as an organised Ecclesia along with the main Ecclesia body. This I call the final thrust to preach the gospel, they will bring a new lease on life for all of Christianity to make that last and final concerted effort to preach the gospel into all the world and unite Christianity under the rallying call of the 11th hour workmen.

In order for this to happen the formulae of God must be in motion as it was prophesied in:

Isaiah 19:24-25
In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria,
even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying,
Blessed be Egypt my people,
and Assyria the work of my hands,
and Israel mine inheritance.

So this formulae is not yet in motion as you can see that it is a calling upon all Jews as one unified thrust to be the third along with Egypt (the world) and with Assyria (the ancient church of the Babylon) as one Ecclesia, one church one body in uniform.

This is the last hour rallying call as did Gideon to the Jewish masses of their time, so it will be in the not so distant time, where then Assyrians are the key to uniting the world under the true faith as God states Assyria the work of my hands. Remember what Jesus said:

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Egypt is the symbol of what was once a pagan gentile world who have come into the fullness of God by accepting the founding cornerstone Christ Jesus and so Luke 21:24 cannot happen until the Assyrians just like Gideon, start pressing the people of Israel by either they follow God today in making a pledge or forever perish. Therefore the Gideon's and Jonah's of today will be the Assyrian Ecclesia who will present this ultimatum to the rabbinical authority and all rabbinical authority will heed the call and there will be mass conversions and in this matter in context to the 11th hour workmen, is that all of Israel/Jerusalem will be saved by this formulae of God that reserves a huge blessing, meaning it will happen regardless of opposition, it will happen.

So continue the good job brother to preach to the Jewish peoples and come and join us when you see this momentous occasion happening. I am sure all of Egypt, that is the gentile Christian world will come in this solidarity movement that will be unprecedented in history.

Why do you think the disciples first point of call was not to the Gentiles but to the Assyrians who is the Assyrians church mentioned in Peter's epistles.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

 

[Berean777]

Ezekiel 37
11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the SovereignLordsays: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.

Matthew 27:52-53 therefore fulfilled. Context is the reaping of the firstfruits of God the old covenant saints who were taken UP into their own heavenly land, the place where Abraham sojourned to be with God in God's dwelling place, Christ's Father's house.

 

[dougangel]

Matthew 27:52-53 therefore fulfilled. Context is the reaping of the firstfruits of God the old covenant saints who were taken UP into their own heavenly land, the place where Abraham sojourned to be with God in God's dwelling place, Christ's Father's house.

Ok fair enough, sounds right in a spiritual sense.
Maybe it has a historical manifestation too.
Many Jews used this passage as inspiration to return after the war.

 

[Notrash]

If you look at all the versions Matthew Mark and luke
it makes it clear there are two questions

They are looking at the temple and Jesus says these rocks will be strewn down.
The disciples ask when will this happen ? and what are the signs of the end of the age?

Unless of course the "end of the age" was referring to the end of the mosaic covt (temple) age as prophecied in the book of deut (and every prophet from Samuel onwards) and the signs leading up to his coming were signs leading up to his coming to end that same mosaic covt age of which the temple (which they were looking at and had asked concerning its destruction) and its administration were principle elements.

See my previous post which points out where this end of the mosaic covt age are prophecied.





...

 

[Berean777]

Ok fair enough, sounds right in a spiritual sense.
Maybe it has a historical manifestation too.
Many Jews used this passage as inspiration to return after the war.

The Jewish peoples are left by God a slice of the action and that must always be according to the guidelines of the great commission to preach the gospel. They will come as the 11th hour workmen along with the rest of Ecclesia to take the baton so to speak and make the final thrust. After all the fullness of th Gentiles is a 2000 years in the making as they have been preaching the gospel and now the Jewish peoples turn to come into the fullness of God by being the 11th hour workmen according to the parable of the workmen who go out to employ people at different times of the day.

 

[gospelfer]

Berean's spiritual picture of what will happen is more or less correct. But he has mistaken the historical expression of them, about which scripture is fairly clear. There will be nations in the future, and some of them will be followers of Christ, and some will not. Christ's influence over the world will grow.

It's true that Assyria and Egypt are often used typologically. But that is not the case with Isaiah 19 -- there is too much specificity. Isaiah is describing an actual future time when Israel has been re-established, along with Egypt and Assyria as following the Christ; it is a small fragment of future history. The interesting question is how we will all arrive at that future.

 

[Berean777]

Berean's spiritual picture of what will happen is more or less correct. But he has mistaken the historical expression of them, about which scripture is fairly clear. There will be nations in the future, and some of them will be followers of Christ, and some will not. Christ's influence over the world will grow.

It's true that Assyria and Egypt are often used typologically. But that is not the case with Isaiah 19 -- there is too much specificity. Isaiah is describing an actual future time when Israel has been re-established, along with Egypt and Assyria as following the Christ; it is a small fragment of future history. The interesting question is how we will all arrive at that future.

Good point. The great commission prerogative must be complied with and the Jewish peoples will eventually come as their rabbinical authority will push for the conversion and take up the weight as the 11th hour workmen. What the outcomes of nations is I don't know but I believe that all Israel as peoples will be saved for God has reserved the day where his youngest prodigal son who sold his inheritance and went into a far country will come to be greated by the Father of hosts. I have that in mind and will be behind them 100%. Their job is not Kingdom building but a job that is part and parcel of the preaching of the gospel by first accepting it and saying in their hearts that blessed is he who CAME in the NAME (KHA-SHIMA) of the Lord.
I have no doubt that the Assyrians are the key just like Gideon was who rallied behind them in ancient times.
I believe that Abraham is an angel in heaven with the Christ/King David, along with the 24 heavenly kingly judges. The fulfilment of the old covenant age would not be so unless these thrones would sit on the right and left of Christ. The promise of Abraham was delivered in full and the dwelling place of permanent Israel is in Christ's Father's house in heaven.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus (NEW Covenant), and for the word of God (Old Covenant), and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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