The only question regarding Matthew 24:15

[dougangel]

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

well NO.


4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

This piece seems to be dealing with believers not Israel. The gospel being preached in the whole world and the end will come.
Then it seems to repeat going into more detail.


15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.


22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.


26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.


29 “Immediately after the distress of those days


“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

this piece seems to be focusing on Israel, Judea, the Sabbath. and ends with the OT symbolism of a nation that must be Israel going into Darkness. Calamity, captivity, destruction which history seems to bare out.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven , with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

My original question is, will history repeat or is verse 30 the next thing to happen. Because of Daniel, Revelations and Thessalonians it seems the desolation is going to happen again with the anti Christ showing up. really not sure.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

This is a future event and the seventh resurrected king of the first beast, that is earthly Babylon is exposed in the following chapter 14 of Isaiah.

Isaiah 14:4
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

The beast of the bottomless pit aka Lucifer aka Satan is described below as ruling all the nations of the world.

Isaiah 14:6
He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

The following versus describe a world that is emptied of human life as the expression the earth is at rest and no man comes to cut down any trees because most people of the world are killed off:

Isaiah 14:7-8
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

These events come about after the sixth trumpet is sounded and the WOES start being poured out on earth to make it an inhabitable place to live in:

Isaiah 13:12-13
I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

At the symbolic 1290 days Satan appears in human form on earth and the verse below declares his coming :

Isaiah 14:9
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy COMING:
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth;
it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Satan who is the Abomination that maketh desolate will place himself on earth as the messiah to be worshipped and his followers will say have you become mortal/weak like us and human like us:

Isaiah 14:10
All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Satan's pomp and ceromony of his earthly coming is planned by God for his destruction, in God's land/earth he will be destroyed by God:

Isaiah 14:11
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Now we are introduced to the introduction of the Abomination that maketh desolate and to his identity:

Isaiah 14:12-15
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the BOTTOMLESS PIT.

Satan is the king of Babylon, but who is he a symbol of?

Isaiah 14:25
That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

Now go back to Isaiah 13 God declares that he will destroy earthly Babylon and its Assyrian king aka Satan in his own land meaning earth, as he did to Sodom and Gomorrah and this means that it will be a cosmic judgement that will cause calamity on earth and move earth from its habitable zone, therefore rendering all life support absent and human life barely existent.

Isaiah 13:19
And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

This is a future prophesy of Satan's Pompous coming as the earthly messiah, which leads to his ultimate destruction along with the earthly realm that supports earthly Kingdom Babylon and all life. If God didn't shorten those days, not even the elect could survive this cosmic onslaught from God.

You would of saved yourself a lot of trouble writing all this had you read the last sentence I wrote at the bottom of my post.

 

[Berean777]

You would of saved yourself a lot of trouble writing all this had you read the last sentence I wrote at the bottom of my post.

I did read it and I wrote further exhorts to strengthen what already another witness such as yourself has testified. I wanted to add that Isaiah 13 is a lead in to Isaiah 14, whereby the identity of the king of Babylon is no other than the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka Lucifer who was imprisoned when the first beast received it's mortal head wound back in 70AD.

This leads to the final judgment of mystery Babylon in the final Gog and Magog battle after satan's release where he is greated in pomp and ceremony by his earthly servants, when they say you have become mortal and human like us.

When he comes as an earthly messiah the daily sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins that was posted on the cross at Calvary is removed and the world is tempted into believing he is he messiah because he comes with signs and lying wonders and if it were possible he would even deceived the elect.

 

[dougangel]

The NT never says that nationhood for Israel matters in the NT's doctrine of the end of the world and day of judgement.

have to disagree with that.
One of the questions in Mathew 24 is what are the signs of the end of the age. The fig tree is a symbol of Israel. There is various symbolism in Revelation naming Israel in Revelations. There is a lot more end time prophecy in the OT of course.

 

[Straightshot]

"have to disagree with that.
One of the questions in Mathew 24 is what are the signs of the end of the age. The fig tree is a symbol of Israel. There is various symbolism in Revelation naming Israel in Revelations. There is a lot more end time prophecy in the OT of course."


You should disagree .... your thinking is correct

Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20-36 are both about the nation of Israel, and so is Revelation 12 .... in the future out ahead of us

Some have confused these passages of scripture with the today's church and at the same time they discount the Bible prophets as irrelevant

And this position then is used to support replacement theology and preterism

 

[BABerean2]

The fig tree is a symbol of Israel.

Can you provide scripture showing the fig tree given as a symbol of Israel?


Mat_21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

 

[Interplanner]

All business to be done with israel was completed in the 1st century. Lk 21, and I Th 1. Rom 11:30 says he is no longer working with nations as such, but with believers. The Israel he said there would all be saved was all believers, as the Isaiah quote means. The fig tree like the weather was just a way of saying, you will see signs--back then in 1st century Israel. The green tree vs the dry tree was showing that it would be that generation.

There are other places where the worldwide day of judgement is said to be as early as right after the events of 70 but maybe delayed. It was, as we know.

Mt24A is about the first century situation. At v29 it is about the worldwide judgement right after that but with the option that it may be delayed, as it was.

 

[dougangel]

Can you provide scripture showing the fig tree given as a symbol of Israel?


Mat_21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

THE VINE is a symbol of Israel's Spiritual privileges.

THE FIG-TREE is a symbol of Israel's National privileges.

THE OLIVE TREE is a symbol of Israel's Religious privileges.

Go there. There are plenty of scriptures.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/larkin/dt/29.cfm

 

[BABerean2]

THE VINE is a symbol of Israel's Spiritual privileges.

THE FIG-TREE is a symbol of Israel's National privileges.

THE OLIVE TREE is a symbol of Israel's Religious privileges.

Go there. There are plenty of scriptures.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/larkin/dt/29.cfm

I went there and saw the claim. However, it does not match up to scripture.
Jesus cursed the fig tree, for not producing fruit and said never let it produce fruit again.

Is that the symbol of National Israel that you were promoting?

Mat_21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

The symbols of the vine and the olive tree given on the site, did match up to scripture.

 

[dougangel]

The symbols of the vine and the olive tree given on the site, did match up to scripture.

Well, did you read that properly. Anyway, anyone who doesn't know the fig tree is symbol of Israel. I have major doubts about but here are some straight verses mentioning the fig tree.

Joel 1:7

Habakkuk 3:16–19

Zechariah 3:10
The fig tree features very much in OT scriptures as the vine and olive does.

This is what I think the fig tree parables are about

In the Parable of the "Barren Fig-tree" (Luke 13:6-9) we have another picture of Israel. The "Fig-tree" is the Jewish nation. The "Fig-tree" was planted in a "Vineyard," which we have seen stands for the land of Palestine. The owner of the Vineyard and of the Fig-tree was God. He came in the person of His Son Jesus, and for three years of Jesus' ministry He had sought for fruit from the Jewish nation and found none. He therefore decided to cut down the tree, that is, remove the nation from the Vineyard.

But the tree was not destroyed immediately, for intercession was made for it, and the day of grace was lengthened out for forty years, and then the "axe-man" Titus, at the head of the Roman Army besieged Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and Israel, the Fig-tree, was cut down and cast out of the Vineyard into the field of the world.

But while the "Fig-tree" (Israel) was cut down and cast out of the "Vineyard" (Palestine), its root was not destroyed, the axe was only laid at the root of the "Tree" (Luke 3:7-9), the root itself was not killed or removed from the soil. It is clear then from the "Parable of the Fig-tree," (Matt. 24:32-34), that a new tree will spring from the root, that is, the nation of Israel will revive, and when it shall reach the point where it shall "put forth leaves" then we shall have the "FIG-TREE SIGN" that Christ's return is not far away. In this case the "Fig-tree" will bear leaves before it bears fruit, for Israel is to be revived nationally

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

Fig trees grow in Israel [and other places on the earth]

The reference to the fig tree in Israel is an analogy only

To demonstrate the cycle of this tree which those in Israel understood

The Lord is talking about the events that will take place all taken together just before He returns visibly to the earth and to Israel specifically [Luke 21:20-36] [this was not 70 AD]

The analogy: when you see the fig tree begin to bud you can know that summer is near .... this happens and can be a way to know when summer will come

Just the same, when you see all of these things taken together .... you can know that my
visible return to the earth is near

All of this is still pending as we speak

 

[Interplanner]

The things he was referring to in Judea were 1st century at the end of that generation. That in itself should clear up the "this generation" declarations he made. The things that are worldwide were expected right after the DofJ but allowed to be delayed, and were.

True NT eschatology does not mix the two.

[Gone for the week]

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Straightshot]

Will I have to disagree with your view

Satan is gog [Ezekiel 38:17] and he is the one who will instigate Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions .... the little horn will have ships [Daniel 11:36-45] .... and Satan could care less about cattle ... he wants to destroy Israel

Israel is in the Middle East today and essentially much different than in ancient times when kingdoms used fortress walls for protection .... these are no longer used in today's setting .... modern warfare has made the fortress obsolete [for example air warfare]

Israel does have security fencing today in certain locations, but not encompassing fortress walls .... these things would be ineffective .... the Muslims just dig underneath .... and send their rockets from the sky

And believe that Israel is being protected by the Lord at this time and since 1948 for His purposes

.... if not, the tiny state would have been obliterated by the surrounding Muslim hoards long ago

I see that you are confusing the battle of Armageddon with another human rebellion that will take place 1000 years later at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth with Israel at the center.... a totally different setting .... the Lord puts down the rebellion quickly, and there will be no bird food or cleaning required by Israel as there will be at Armageddon [Ezekiel 39]

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Notrash]

This true, but it was not fulfilled in 70 AD because the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 is associated with the end times and Jesus's Return. And also in Daniel 12, the end times.

The question that the disciples asked concerned the end of the AGE, not end of the world.

The 3 points the disciples asked were all talking of the same time: the destructiin of the temple, signs of thy coming to end the temple age. (mosaic covt age outlined in and foretold in the book of deuteronomy)

What 'end times' are deut 5:25,26; 31:29; 32:20,29 & thus dan 10:14 speaking of? What latter days are being talked about in Gen 49:1-10.

Baberean2 is right.

 

[Straightshot]

"You need to look at Zechariah 14 and go clear to almost 1/2 way into it, where it refers to agreat tumult. Here is the first Gog war, ahead of the 1000 years."


Jesus is the one who will take on Israel's enemies [14:3] and destroy them at Armageddon [14:12-13] .... then He will set up His millennial kingdom upon the earth and rule for 1000 years [14:4-11; 14:16-21]

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Straightshot]

Satan [gog] will instigate the human rebellion against Israel which will end up at Armageddon [Ezekiel 38; 39]

Then after Armageddon Satan will be sent to the abyss for 1000 years so that he cannot deceive the nations of the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth

Then he will be released to cause another human rebellion at the ending of the above kingdom and end up in the Lord's lake of fire

This is exactly the order in which the Bible presents this drama [Revelation 19:11-21; 20:7-10]

Satan is gog, the one who instigates human rebellions [magog] against the Lord and Israel

Two rebellions 1000 years apart