Water baptism

[ByTheSpirit]

im not frogster but im in for a penny lol

..disobedience is the answer .. willful unrepentant disobedience ..they did many good things but it is only to justify not doing the one thing the lord was asking of them by his spirit..
they did all the other things to compensate for their disobedience .(and the one thing the lord asks of us in personal life is different depending on whom the lord is asking and for what reason .)


had they put their faith in the lord Jesus smote their chest in sincere repentance asking forgiveness and called upon the lord Jesus to save them.. and then got hit by a runaway OX cart 3 minutes later ..they would certainly be saved .. ("who so ever calleth upon the name of the lord shall be saved "pp)
-had they survived the Ox cart and learned of the need to be water baptized and ..then refused to do so as an act of willful disobedience ..but instead gone and done a lot of good works to compensate for their disobedience ..then they will have the end the lord speaks of ... they will be cast out -just as the lord says .

Thats a mighty profound and rich penny! I always enjoy your posts

 

[Frogster]

Like I said, if your life depends on it, you will find a way.

you may want to walk through a hospital to see what I mean. No, my life is not dependant on my body going into water.

 

[Frogster]

No, you've only shown your interpretation of the text.

of course..

 

[bob96]

Frogster, are you able to explain why the faith filled believers in Matt 7:21 were not saved?

 

[Frogster]

Some poor dying soldier on the field wants to be saved, but he can't be, there is no water there..:o

 

[Frogster]

Frogster, are you able to explain why the faith filled believers in Matt 7:21 were not saved?

bro, were are justified by faith, now that is that.

Let go of mandating baptism please...

 

[Frogster]

what a stretch anway, we know false signs and wonders will be done, they did that, but did not know the Lord.

Now, we are not saved by works, high time you see the SOP!

 

[bob96]

"who so ever calleth upon the name of the lord shall be saved "

Michael,

do you know when you "call upon the name of the Lord"? It is in baptism. It is the point you "put on" Christ (Galatians), and become "in Him".

Acts 22:16 “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord”

Ananias knew that Paul had not yet “called on the name of the Lord,”. He wasn't saved until he had been baptized. How could he have been saved if his sins had not been washed away by the blood of Jesus that happens during our participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ our Lord?

 

[bob96]

bro, were are justified by faith, now that is that.

Let go of mandating baptism please...

Now here's where your house of cards falls down. These people had faith, did they not? So why were they not "justified by faith"?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I think the story of the Exodus has some bearing on the topic. I really do. Symbolism can be found all throughout the Old Testament in the relevancy of the New. Noah's Ark represents Christ, as did Jonah in the whale. Those are just 2 of the Old Testament pictures of New Testament truths.

Well in the story of the Exodus you have the Egyptians as task masters over the Israelites. It's not a stretch to say the Egyptians in the story represent sin. Sin rules over the people of the world. Pharoah was a fearful ruler, harsh and strong. He represents the dark one, the prince of the present age, god of this world. He lords it over the people of the world and rules with an iron fist.

God through many signs and wonders makes a way for salvation to those who walk by faith. Now, where the story meets our discussion starts with the final plague. The angel of death was coming. The only way the Israelites could save themselves from certain death was by the blood of the lamb. No other way could suffice but the blood. Now notice, the blood didn't deliver the Israelite's from Egypt, it merely opened the way for them to be delivered. For by the result of the 10th plague, Pharoah's power was broken and the Israelites were set free. So the blood saved them from death and set them free.

BUT, it didn't take long for Pharoah and the Egyptians to come back to capture, enslave, and even destroy the Israelites. Their full deliverance from bondage to the old life didn't come until they passed through the water. They were completely saved through the water.

So, the blood delivered them from death and set them on the path to freedom, but without the water, they would have only ended up in slavery again. The water was necessary to provide complete deliverance from bondage.

In our case, the blood of Jesus is what delivers us from death and sets us on the path to freedom. BUT if one does not pass through the waters of baptism, that freedom may be short lived indeed. The Israelites needed both in order to experience the complete salvation of God from their tormenters and task masters. So do we. I believe this is the sentiment behind statements Paul wrote about in that through baptism we die (crucify) to the old nature, are buried with Jesus, and then we are raised to new life. It is a type of Exodus for each individual where through faith in the blood they are spared from death and then by passing through the waters of baptism they are completely set free from the power sin had over them.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[Edial]

Sorry, Lutherans practise baptism correctly, however the "faith only" doctrine has been adopted by other churches and watered down to its present state today, where baptism is now virtually optional.

Oh, when people see baptism as optional I just shake my head in disbelief.

Water Baptism is as Christian as Christianity gets.

 

[Edial]

you should try it its easy ...see

apologies if you have no hands

The best I do is tap the from pew.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Oh, when people see baptism as optional I just shake my head in disbelief.

Water Baptism is as Christian as Christianity gets.

I really see the mix up in the idea that "grace" saves means we have no part to play in the matter. People view baptism as a work of merit that results in salvation. Baptism doesn't save anyone unless they have faith. It is the heart of obedience that through baptism receives salvation. Or rather, shows that it has been redeemed. God's grace, his true grace, will ALWAYS lead us to obedience to his commands. Anything other than obedience is not true grace. It may be man's version of grace, but not God's grace.

This is what I've tried to say all along, that baptism is that initial, I want to follow Jesus moment where we all cast aside our old life, take the plunge of death, get buried with Christ, and are raised to new life. It doesn't mean that I have to magically find faith while I'm being held under water *frog! * It means that upon hearing the gospel message, I decide I want to follow Jesus, make him Lord of my life... What's the first thing I need to do? Repent and show that I decided to repent by being baptized! Then when my faith has been demonstrated in the scriptural method, I can walk in new life.

Baptism in water is a demonstration of saving faith, an initial act of obedience that leads us into the new life of faith. Without faith, baptism saves no one and that is why I have tried to implore those who say I preach works based salvation that I'm not. If I were, then I would say baptism saves regardless of if a person had faith or not. No, it doesn't. Only those who have faith in Jesus Christ as the Living Son of God can have salvation through baptism. But if a person in some odd, weird instance were to be unable to submit to baptism in a timely manner and pass away, they may still be saved.

All I know is Jesus said those who believe and are baptized will be saved. We can try to say well belief is what's important there so let's not worry much about baptism. But if that were the meaning, then Jesus wouldn't have mentioned it. Take that chance if you want to, I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I hope I didn't cross the line there...

 

[Edial]

...

I hope I didn't cross the line there...

Close ... but you are absolved.
Everyone knows what you meant.

 

[Alithis]

Michael,

do you know when you "call upon the name of the Lord"? It is in baptism. It is the point you "put on" Christ (Galatians), and become "in Him".

Acts 22:16 “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord”

Ananias knew that Paul had not yet “called on the name of the Lord,”. He wasn't saved until he had been baptized. How could he have been saved if his sins had not been washed away by the blood of Jesus that happens during our participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ our Lord?

no one is saying we should not be water baptized ..we absolutely should be as an act obedience to faith .

but we are saying that should a person not have that opportunity it does not automatically condemn them .

tell me ,does God judge the action or does he judge the intent of the heart ?

the pharisees thought they were "all good" ,they didn't sleep with other men's wives ... but the lord showed them the lord knew they lusted to in the heart ..he judged the heart not the outer action..

so in like manner if the lord knows that the heart intent of the person who cries "lord save me" is so sincere that given the opportunity to know about water baptism and do it ,, they would do so willingly ..then they are saved ... it is called the grace of God .

(i think far more people are saved then we give God credit for and far more are lost whom we credited as righteous by our inability to judge righteously. )

but as iv said before on this topic ..if your a believer in the lord Jesus and you haven't been baptized .. go do so ! its simple obedience ,why would any one, Who truly believes, not wish to identify with his death and resurrection ? ..

if they truly believe they will not hesitate to say here is water what hinders me.

 

[Alithis]

bro, were are justified by faith, now that is that.

Let go of mandating baptism please...

he is not really is he ?
----------
mandate
noun
ˈmandeɪt/
1.
an official order or commission to do something.
"a mandate to seek the release of political prisoners"
synonyms: instruction, directive, direction, decree, command, order, injunction, edict, charge, commission, bidding, warrant, ruling, ordinance, law, statute, fiat;
--------------
scripturally speaking - it has already been mandated ...as in : instruction, directive, direction, decree, command, order,

and every believer once learning of it .. does it
i think we agree it is done ..in that sense .. because we have become believers ..or mixing all the terminology .. we have become saved , we are become converted etc ..one leads spiritually to the other .

i would openly question the sincerity of a person who "claims" to be a believer in the lord Jesus for some time and yet has not willingly Got baptized in water ... ..its like saying i believe in prayer but i never ever pray ..it simply would make no sense

 

[Frogster]

he is not really is he ?
----------
mandate
noun
ˈmandeɪt/
1.
an official order or commission to do something.
"a mandate to seek the release of political prisoners"
synonyms: instruction, directive, direction, decree, command, order, injunction, edict, charge, commission, bidding, warrant, ruling, ordinance, law, statute, fiat;
--------------
scripturally speaking - it has already been mandated ...as in : instruction, directive, direction, decree, command, order,

and every believer once learning of it .. does it
i think we agree it is done ..in that sense .. because we have become believers ..or mixing all the terminology .. we have become saved , we are become converted etc ..one leads spiritually to the other .

i would openly question the sincerity of a person who "claims" to be a believer in the lord Jesus for some time and yet has not willingly Got baptized in water ... ..its like saying i believe in prayer but i never ever pray ..it simply would make no sense

but in the miami scenario, he is mandating it, because the man was not saved, without water baptism he had no salvation, according to Bob.

I asked if the man was saved, and he said no, and the only reason in the scenario was no water baptism, so he is mandating if for salvation.

That, as the mos said here, is against the SOP.

Thanks...

 

[Alithis]

but in the miami scenario, he is mandating it, because the man was not saved, without water baptism he had no salvation, according to Bob.

I asked if the man was saved, and he said no, and the only reason in the scenario was no water baptism, so he is mandating if for salvation.

That, as the mos said here, is against the SOP.

Thanks...

well yup i think we all agree now that we must be water baptized if we can do so out of love for the lord and a willingness to obey having become children of obedience ,so to speak
.
but no scripture says if you don't get water baptism your not saved ..only that we should do so ,
(in my view, because we are being saved continuously ..i use the term "being " as in, an ongoing sense, in reference to continued sanctification -but that"s a whole other topic lol)

 

[bob96]

he is not really is he ?
----------
mandate
noun
ˈmandeɪt/
1.
an official order or commission to do something.
"a mandate to seek the release of political prisoners"
synonyms: instruction, directive, direction, decree, command, order, injunction, edict, charge, commission, bidding, warrant, ruling, ordinance, law, statute, fiat;
--------------
scripturally speaking - it has already been mandated ...as in : instruction, directive, direction, decree, command, order,

and every believer once learning of it .. does it
i think we agree it is done ..in that sense .. because we have become believers ..or mixing all the terminology .. we have become saved , we are become converted etc ..one leads spiritually to the other .

i would openly question the sincerity of a person who "claims" to be a believer in the lord Jesus for some time and yet has not willingly Got baptized in water ... ..its like saying i believe in prayer but i never ever pray ..it simply would make no sense

I know dozens of church attending believers that have never been baptised - some have been attending church for over a decade. They have no intention of ever being baptised, because the "faith only" doctrine they are taught says baptism is optional.

 

[bob96]

but in the miami scenario, he is mandating it, because the man was not saved, without water baptism he had no salvation, according to Bob.

I asked if the man was saved, and he said no, and the only reason in the scenario was no water baptism, so he is mandating if for salvation.

That, as the mos said here, is against the SOP.

Thanks...

The meaning of "saving works" in the Catholic doctrine is performing "good deeds".
The belief that performing a good deed can earn salvation is against the SOP. The Catholic's believe you are saved through doing good deeds. This is what Luther was against. He invented the "faith only" doctrine to oppose it.

A "good deed" by definition is something that you do for someone else to benefit them:
eg.
volunteering
giving to charity
visiting widows and prisoners

Catholic doctrine teaches that you are saved by performing these and other good deeds.

If you did something for for selfish gain, or to benefit yourself in some way, this could not be considered a good deed.