Water baptism

[Alithis]

Frogster,

it looks like your argument for salvation based on faith only has fallen apart.

1. Your false doctrine shows a clear misunderstanding of the scriptures:
"the blood does it always (washes away our sins), and after conversion, and forever, it is eternal. Hebrews says so.Chapter 10 cover that. That book was written to saved people.."

You believe that Jesus' blood cleanses us of our sins AFTER we are saved. If this truly is your stance, I have nothing more to say. You cannot be helped.

2. The early church fathers have condemned your doctrine as coming from Satan.

120-205 AD IRENAEUS "This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)

3. You claim that the verses that mention we are saved by faith apart from meritous works negate the verses that link baptism and salvation/forgiveness of sins. Even though I have shown you that faith must be accompanied by obedience for it to be a saving faith, just as Jesus himself said.

Matt 7:21 (Weymouth New Testament) "Not every one who says to me, 'Master, Master,' will enter the Kingdom of the Heavens, but only those who are obedient to my Father who is in Heaven.

James also claimed that faith only cannot save you:

James 2:9 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

4. We have seen that the focus for baptism is not a public setting, but rather on the urgency.

The Ethiopian - "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?" (Acts 8:36)
Jailer and family - "immediately he and all his household were baptized." (Acts 16:33)
The believers discover their sin - "Brothers! What shall we do!?" ... "be baptized" Acts 2
Gentiles saved - "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water." (Acts 10:47)
Acts 22:16 "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

Your doctrine of "faith only" says "Stop! Wait! No need to rush! There's a big baptism service in 6 months time. You can get baptised then."

5. Baptism, according to the writers of the NT is an easy to understand elementary basic teaching, that doesn't need to be continually repeated throughout scripture. You deny this by claiming that the verses that clearly state the purpose of baptism must be wrong, and must be interpreted to mean something else.

Acts 2:38 "be baptised for the forgiveness of sins."
Acts 22:16 "be baptized, and wash away thy sins"
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism, ...(that) we too might walk in newness of life.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 5:26 ...having cleansed her (the church) by the washing of water with the word
Titus 3:5 he saved us, ...by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 3:21 "it (baptism) saves you".


Your main techniques include the use of eisegesis to twist scriptures to fit your doctrine, as well as the use of corner cases and non-standard scenarios which you keep referring back to.

In conclusion, it seems that your loyalty to your doctrine is more important than the truth.

I pray that despite your beliefs, you urge others to be baptised immediately upon coming to faith, and not to wait for a baptism service some time down the track, as they might not live that long. Noone knows how long we have on this earth. All we can do is have faith, and be obedient.

and yet ... the bloke on the cross was saved ..

And ..again he has never said any one shouldnt be baptized ..we all agree that we absolutely should be ,once we learn of it ,which the Lord causes to happen ,once he speaks to our hearts about it .. we must obey him ..it is like saying "once you breath in ..you will breath out ."..it goes without saying .

we all agree on that .

 

[bob96]

and yet ... the bloke on the cross was saved ..

And ..again he has never said any one shouldnt be baptized ..we all agree that we absolutely should be ,once we learn of it ,which the Lord causes to happen ,once he speaks to our hearts about it .. we must obey him ..it is like saying "once you breath in ..you will breath out ."..it goes without saying .

we all agree on that .

Again, the thief on the cross was saved under the old covenant. Jesus had the power to forgive sins directly while on earth.

"we must obey him ..it is like saying "once you breath in ..you will breath out ."..it goes without saying ."

Yet Jesus warns about people that have faith, yet have not been obedient. It is happening today. The doctrine of faith only is promoting the idea that it's ok to delay your baptism, indefinitely in many cases.

 

[Frogster]

Again, the thief on the cross was saved under the old covenant. Jesus had the power to forgive sins directly while on earth.

"we must obey him ..it is like saying "once you breath in ..you will breath out ."..it goes without saying ."

Yet Jesus warns about people that have faith, yet have not been obedient. It is happening today. The doctrine of faith only is promoting the idea that it's ok to delay your baptism, indefinitely in many cases.

The doctrine of faith alone, is the SOP that you ignore!

 

[Frogster]

(I have responded to the "Thief on the cross" argument earlier)

They boasted of their good fruits (works), yet they are still condemned by Jesus for a lack of obedience.

Good works / human merits obviously do not save. They had faith, so "faith alone" didn't save them. There was an action (which was not a human merit) that they had not been obedient to.

Salvation requires faith AND obedience. Obedience in this context implies an action not involving human merit or "good fruit" that you must perform in order to be saved.

Bob..those were not even saved people, they were wolves and false prophets in Matt 7. Why are you using them as your example?! Who cares if wolves do good works, or false miracles? We know htey are unsaved..we know...


We all know unsaved do good deeds and think they are ok, but why are you arguing from text, about false peophets? Of course they were not saved anyway.

 

[Frogster]

My stance on faith only is James specifically condemns such a view. But it takes some understanding as well. Faith is the only thing that saves a person. Grace doesn't save people, but it is what people receive when they have faith. Works don't save us, but works are the fruit of saving faith.

If a person says I have faith and never displays it by works, they are yet in their sins. You can be sure of that. I view baptism as the first of those works a person must do to demonstrate their faith. It is the entry point of sorts

Entry into this?


3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

It is from faith to faith in Rom 1, not faith to works, lets not hang out hats on works.

 

[Frogster]

Frogster, can you please stop trying to dodge the question. Please explain why the faith filled believers in Matt 7:21 were not saved?

I still can't understand why the Miami man was not saved, in your view, even though it is clear, because you mandate baptism FOR SALVATION...

why wonder if false prophets are not saved in Matt 7? Dead people's works don't matter, we know that, but you keep using Matt 7 incorrectly. It is one of the oddest things I have seen here on the forum in a long time, to misuse text so blatantly and adamantly too.

 

[Frogster]

Again, the thief on the cross was saved under the old covenant. Jesus had the power to forgive sins directly while on earth.

"we must obey him ..it is like saying "once you breath in ..you will breath out ."..it goes without saying ."

Yet Jesus warns about people that have faith, yet have not been obedient. It is happening today. The doctrine of faith only is promoting the idea that it's ok to delay your baptism, indefinitely in many cases.

As I said, the New Cov blood was sprinkled though, at that point, and that is why countless people for centuries use that verse, those who know, that he did not have to be baptized to be saved.

Besides, no one was ever saved under the Old cov stipulations... go ahead, argue that with the frog...

So you are incorrect.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Entry into this?


3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

It is from faith to faith in Rom 1, not faith to works, lets not hang out hats on works.

Baptism isn't a work of the flesh... did you baptize yourself or did someone else baptize you? Actually Colossians 2:11-13 says God works through baptism... your whole talking point is rather redundant, find some new material

Jesus is the one that said one MUST be born of WATER and SPIRIT if they are to enter the kingdom of God. Actually he started with the famous Truly I say to you which was a guarantee that what he said was true. So you tell me, was Jesus wrong?

 

[Frogster]

Baptism isn't a work of the flesh... did you baptize yourself or did someone else baptize you? Actually Colossians 2:11-13 says God works through baptism... your whole talking point is rather redundant, find some new material

no but it could be used by the flesh, to prove self validation, instead of validation by what Christ did.

You need new material, in all fairness, you have started some baptism threads.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

no but it could be used by the flesh, to prove self validation, instead of validation by what Christ did.

You need new material, in all fairness, you have started some baptism threads.

Since you replied before my last bit... Jesus said if one is not born of water & spirit they CANNOT enter God's kingdom. So was Jesus wrong?

 

[Frogster]

Since you replied before my last bit... Jesus said if one is not born of water & spirit they CANNOT enter God's kingdom. So was Jesus wrong?

I thought water can mean word also?

Bottom line, you really are not going by the whole of the theology, it is really sad, and this dogmatism to fuse baptism, as a must for salvation is really not cool.

Bottom line, faith alone, that is that, everyone knows that too..ummmm..except a few here.


Again, the kindom of God is Rightouness joy and peace, does it say baptism in Rom 14?

13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

I was transferred without water.

Was the miami man transferred without water into the kingdom? Yes or no?

 

[Frogster]

Since you replied before my last bit... Jesus said if one is not born of water & spirit they CANNOT enter God's kingdom. So was Jesus wrong?

and stop trying to add to the cov, it is about promise.


15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.

 

[Frogster]

Since you replied before my last bit... Jesus said if one is not born of water & spirit they CANNOT enter God's kingdom. So was Jesus wrong?

Rom 4:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

 

[Biblicist]

Since you replied before my last bit... Jesus said if one is not born of water & spirit they CANNOT enter God's kingdom. So was Jesus wrong?

It should be pointed out that the reference to "born of water" could be referring to the natural birth process particularly with procreation.

 

[Frogster]

It should be pointed out that the reference to "born of water" could be referring to the natural birth process particularly with procreation.

interesting.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

It should be pointed out that the reference to "born of water" could be referring to the natural birth process particularly with procreation.

That's true and I can acknowledge that. The only issue with that stance is where does that leave children who die before birth? As in abortions or what not... Such a position would exclude them from heaven if one must be born of water as in physical birth. In fact the context I think, I do mean I think, suggests Jesus is not talking about physical birth. He would say what is born of flesh is flesh... and we know flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God (John 3:6; 1 Cor 15:50)

 

[Biblicist]

That's true and I can acknowledge that. The only issue with that stance is where does that leave children who die before birth? As in abortions or what not... Such a position would exclude them from heaven if one must be born of water as in physical birth. In fact the context I think, I do mean I think, suggests Jesus is not talking about physical birth. He would say what is born of flesh is flesh... and we know flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God (John 3:6; 1 Cor 15:50)

If the "born of water" refers to our physical birth, I would say that Jesus is talking specifically about the act of procreation where a child is first conceived; presuming of course that Jesus is in fact speaking in this manner; this means that every unborn child would of course qualify.

As to what happens to an unborn child who dies, I would lean to the view that even an unborn child who dies goes to be with the Lord as it does appear that they are conceived along with having a human soul.

 

[Frogster]

well, technically babies are in adam..they are legally little sinners!lol

 

[Frogster]

and the federalist view says, well, after all babies do die, so they must be in "the" sin, that of Adam's.

 

[Edial]

Since you replied before my last bit... Jesus said if one is not born of water & spirit they CANNOT enter God's kingdom. So was Jesus wrong?

This is what born of water means ...
Look at the context.
Jesus asked Nicodemus "You are teacher of Israel and you do not know what it means?" ... (paraphrased).
This indicates that only Hebrew scholars understand the meaning.
This means - Old Testament, Creation, Genesis.

Peter said this about creation ...

2PE 3:5 ... heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
​

Only Jewish teachers knew about creation and that everything was made by water and out of water.

So being born of water means being created out of water.

But wasn't everything created out of water?
No. Angels were not.
Creation was "visible and invisible" (someplace in Colossians?)

So this means in order for you to be born again ...
You need to be -
1. Born of water - created human and not an angel
2. Born of spirit - spiritual birth later on.