Water baptism

[bob96]

Frogster, can you please stop trying to dodge the question. Please explain why the faith filled believers in Matt 7:21 were not saved?

 

[Frogster]

The meaning of "saving works" in the Catholic doctrine is performing "good deeds".
The belief that performing a good deed can earn salvation is against the SOP. The Catholic's believe you are saved through doing good deeds. This is what Luther was against. He invented the "faith only" doctrine to oppose it.

A "good deed" by definition is something that you do for someone else to benefit them:
eg.
volunteering
giving to charity
visiting widows and prisoners

Catholic doctrine teaches that you are saved by performing these and other good deeds.

If you did something for for selfish gain, or to benefit yourself in some way, this could not be considered a good deed.

So far, I have not seen catholic's posting here, this is not their section, nor their SOP. You however are mandating water baptism, because of this reason, that the miami man was not baptized, so you judged him unsaved, that is a fact, as per the SOP, works salvation. I asked if he was saved, you said no, and baptism was the issue. Case closed.

 

[Frogster]

Frogster, can you please stop trying to dodge the question. Please explain why the faith filled believers in Matt 7:21 were not saved?

Ohhhh Bob.....

it is about false prophets not faith filled believers!, if you read it, and it does not even mention faith. I tried to tell you that already, they were false prophets doing signs and wonders..that is all that is there Bob, you are reading way too much into the passage.


15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[Frogster]

well yup i think we all agree now that we must be water baptized if we can do so out of love for the lord and a willingness to obey having become children of obedience ,so to speak
.
but no scripture says if you don't get water baptism your not saved ..only that we should do so ,
(in my view, because we are being saved continuously ..i use the term "being " as in, an ongoing sense, in reference to continued sanctification -but that"s a whole other topic lol)

well...progressive sanctification has issues, but that is for another day. But Bob said he was not saved.

 

[Alithis]

Frogster, can you please stop trying to dodge the question. Please explain why the faith filled believers in Matt 7:21 were not saved?

i 'aint frogster but the question has been answered .. your trying to say its becasue they were not baptized in water but the verses do not state that ..

"21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

so by your reasoning .. if the lord asks you to go down the road and give a man a loaf of bread ... and then 30 seconds later you die ... your not saved becaseu you did not do the will of the father .

so again , will god judge you on the outer act of going (which you were cut off from doing )or by the intent of your heart ..which he KNOWS.. ..he will judge you by the intent of the heart ..because that where is he views each of us from .

the folks who say to him lord lord .. did many things outwardly but the intent of their heart was not obedience to the will of the father ... they ignore what he was speaking to their own heart about in order to do their own will and then did a lot of good things outwardly to compensate (which is acts of self righteousness - not faith) ..so we see in matt 7 , again, he does not accept their outer acts ..he judges them by the true intent of the heart .

So if a man believes in the lord Jesus in all sincerity ..the lord will not judge him on whether or not he had the chance to be water baptized ..but by knowing in that mans heart that has he been give opportunity to do so .. he would certainly have done so .and ONLY god can make that judgment . not you ,not I .

 

[Frogster]

i 'aint frogster but the question has been answered .. your trying to say its becasue they were not baptized in water but the verses do not state that ..

"21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

so by your reasoning .. if the lord asks you to go down the road and give a man a loaf of bread ... and then 30 seconds later you die ... your not saved becaseu you did not do the will of the father .

so again , will god judge you on the outer act of going (which you were cut off from doing )or by the intent of your heart ..which he KNOWS.. ..he will judge you by the intent of the heart ..because that where is he views each of us from .

the folks who say to him lord lord .. did many things outwardly but the intent of their heart was not obedience to the will of the father ... they ignore what he was speaking to their own heart about in order to do their own will and then did a lot of good things outwardly to compensate (which is acts of self righteousness - not faith) ..so we see in matt 7 , again, he does not accept their outer acts ..he judges them by the true intent of the heart .

So if a man believes in the lord Jesus in all sincerity ..the lord will not judge him on whether or not he had the chance to be water baptized ..but by knowing in that mans heart that has he been give opportunity to do so .. he would certainly have done so .and ONLY god can make that judgment . not you ,not I .

interesting points, and he keeps asking why ravenous wolves and false prophets are not saved...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit they can not enter the Kingdom of God - Jesus

 

[Alithis]

well...progressive sanctification has issues, but that is for another day. But Bob said he was not saved.

he did and i think thats an error.. as neither he, nor I, nor you can make that call...

 

[Alithis]

Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit they can not enter the Kingdom of God - Jesus

i fully know where your going ..but is born of water flesh birth ? as in the water of the womb ?
now thats a whole other thread topic also lol

 

[bob96]

Ohhhh Bob.....

it is about false prophets not faith filled believers!, if you read it, and it does not even mention faith. I tried to tell you that already, they were false prophets doing signs and wonders..that is all that is there Bob, you are reading way too much into the passage.


15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The difference between a saved disciple and the false-prophets in Matt 7:15 is the lack of good fruit in their lives.

In Matt 7:21, Jesus is talking about people that DID have good fruit in their lives:
- they prophesied
- they cast out demons
- they performed many mighty works in the name of Jesus
These were good things that helped people.

They also had faith - they accepted Jesus as their Lord, and this is how they addressed him "Lord".
They thought they had a relationship with Jesus - they were confused when Jesus said "I never knew you".

Yet, they still lacked one thing. It was obedience. They were not obedient.

Matt 7:21 (Weymouth New Testament) "Not every one who says to me, 'Master, Master,' will enter the Kingdom of the Heavens, but only those who are obedient to my Father who is in Heaven.

There was one of Jesus' commands that they had ignored.

So salvation cannot be "faith alone". It is simply not possible. Jesus himself said so. Luther got it wrong. The church fathers got it right.

Salvation requires faith AND obedience. Obedience implies one or more actions that you must perform in order to be saved.

 

[Alithis]

The difference between a saved disciple and the false-prophets in Matt 7:15 is the lack of good fruit in their lives.

In Matt 7:21, Jesus is talking about people that DID have good fruit in their lives:
- they prophesied
- they cast out demons
- they performed many mighty works in the name of Jesus
These were good things that helped people.

They also had faith - they accepted Jesus as their Lord, and this is how they addressed him "Lord".
They thought they had a relationship with Jesus - they were confused when Jesus said "I never knew you".

Yet, they still lacked one thing. It was obedience. They were not obedient.

Matt 7:21 (Weymouth New Testament) "Not every one who says to me, 'Master, Master,' will enter the Kingdom of the Heavens, but only those who are obedient to my Father who is in Heaven.

There was one of Jesus' commands that they had ignored.

So salvation cannot be "faith alone". It is simply not possible. Jesus himself said so. Luther got it wrong. The church fathers got it right.

Salvation requires faith AND obedience. Obedience implies one or more actions that you must perform in order to be saved.

"The difference between a saved disciple and the false-prophets in Matt 7:15 is the lack of good fruit in their lives. "

and yet ..there they are in matt 7 , boasting of thier good fruits (works) and being declared unsaved ...

we all agree that faith and obedience are required ..because obedience proves the faith exists .. but if we die before being able to act out our obedience God judges us by the intent of the heart ..he knows if we were sincere and would have obeyed given the chance to do so .

so the man on the cross ..was saved without being water baptized .. because the lord Knew ..if that man had opportunity, he would have rushed to do so .

its not ours to make that final judgment my friend ..

as for the rest of us who do know about water baptism . we must of course go and be baptized .

no one is saying we shouldn't ..that would be wrong

we are all saying the same thing ..except you are adding that without being dunked in water a person is not saved .. but that would ONLY be ..if he knew to do so and refused (disobeyed) and you really don't have the ability to judge that of a persons heart .. nor do i . but God does .. so leave it up to him .

 

[ByTheSpirit]

i fully know where your going ..but is born of water flesh birth ? as in the water of the womb ?
now thats a whole other thread topic also lol

It can't be born of the womb, because that would exclude those little ones that are still born or aborted, etc...

 

[bob96]

"The difference between a saved disciple and the false-prophets in Matt 7:15 is the lack of good fruit in their lives. "

and yet ..there they are in matt 7 , boasting of thier good fruits (works) and being declared unsaved ...

(I have responded to the "Thief on the cross" argument earlier)

They boasted of their good fruits (works), yet they are still condemned by Jesus for a lack of obedience.

Good works / human merits obviously do not save. They had faith, so "faith alone" didn't save them. There was an action (which was not a human merit) that they had not been obedient to.

Salvation requires faith AND obedience. Obedience in this context implies an action not involving human merit or "good fruit" that you must perform in order to be saved.

 

[Alithis]

(I have responded to the "Thief on the cross" argument earlier)

They boasted of their good fruits (works), yet they are still condemned by Jesus for a lack of obedience.

Good works / human merits obviously do not save. They had faith, so "faith alone" didn't save them. There was an action (which was not a human merit) that they had not been obedient to.

yes , but be honest here please ..- it is impossible for you or I to say what that action was ... it could and would be different for each individual ...
does he say to the eye ,speak ..or to the ear ,see? to differing parts of the body he commands different things .. so trying to say they are not saved because all of them refused to be water baptized ..just doesn't make sense ..its stretching things far too much to shore up a preferred personal stance .
it may be the case for one .. but all of them ?
how many Christians have you personally meet that have been Christians for many years and refused to be water baptized ?iv not met any in 35+ years..im sure they are out there ,,God Knows .

 

[bob96]

edited below

 

[bob96]

yes , but be honest here please ..- it is impossible for you or I to say what that action was ... it could and would be different for each individual ...
does he say to the eye ,speak ..or to the ear ,see? to differing parts of the body he commands different things .. so trying to say they are not saved because all of them refused to be water baptized ..just doesn't make sense ..its stretching things far too much to shore up a preferred personal stance .
it may be the case for one .. but all of them ?
how many Christians have you personally meet that have been Christians for many years and refused to be water baptized ?iv not met any in 35+ years..im sure they are out there ,,God Knows .

You are correct. The passage doesn't say specifically say what they hadn't done. Though I don't believe God is trying to make it overly complicated for us to get into heaven. The church had not yet begun at this point, so Jesus' baptism had not been instigated. Jesus is just telling people that when the command comes, you need to follow it.

The point here is that the "faith only" doctrine cannot save anyone. It is faith + something else. The something else is a command, (that isn't a good deed.)

The doctrine of Faith Only saves noone.
Salvation = Faith + Obedience. Jesus himself said so.

James 2:9 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

My stance on faith only is James specifically condemns such a view. But it takes some understanding as well. Faith is the only thing that saves a person. Grace doesn't save people, but it is what people receive when they have faith. Works don't save us, but works are the fruit of saving faith.

If a person says I have faith and never displays it by works, they are yet in their sins. You can be sure of that. I view baptism as the first of those works a person must do to demonstrate their faith. It is the entry point of sorts

 

[Andry]

My stance on faith only is James specifically condemns such a view. But it takes some understanding as well. Faith is the only thing that saves a person. Grace doesn't save people, but it is what people receive when they have faith. Works don't save us, but works are the fruit of saving faith.

If a person says I have faith and never displays it by works, they are yet in their sins. You can be sure of that. I view baptism as the first of those works a person must do to demonstrate their faith. It is the entry point of sorts

It's neither here nor there. Our definition of "saved" needs to be looked at.

When Jesus sent the 70, they did all sorts of "works", but were they "saved"? Were they even baptised? When were the 12 disciples "saved"?

If "it's an entry point of sorts", as you say, here are the works, yet clearly this group of people aren't "saved":

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:21-23

Too often we make the mistake of judging/determining/assessing people's belief system through their behavior or appearance.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm not advocating that churches start an office of "Fruit Inspector". All I am saying is those who are truly born again will display that NEW LIFE in how they live. That new life should start with baptism. The 72 of Luke's gospel may well have been part of the 120 in Acts, you are asking something with no basis to support even your own hypothetical.

 

[bob96]

Frogster,

it looks like your argument for salvation based on faith only has fallen apart.

1. Your false doctrine shows a clear misunderstanding of the scriptures:
"the blood does it always (washes away our sins), and after conversion, and forever, it is eternal. Hebrews says so.Chapter 10 cover that. That book was written to saved people.."

You believe that Jesus' blood cleanses us of our sins AFTER we are saved. If this truly is your stance, I have nothing more to say. You cannot be helped.

2. The early church fathers have condemned your doctrine as coming from Satan.

120-205 AD IRENAEUS "This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.)

3. You claim that the verses that mention we are saved by faith apart from meritous works negate the verses that link baptism and salvation/forgiveness of sins. Even though I have shown you that faith must be accompanied by obedience for it to be a saving faith, just as Jesus himself said.

Matt 7:21 (Weymouth New Testament) "Not every one who says to me, 'Master, Master,' will enter the Kingdom of the Heavens, but only those who are obedient to my Father who is in Heaven.

James also claimed that faith only cannot save you:

James 2:9 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

4. We have seen that the focus for baptism is not a public setting, but rather on the urgency.

The Ethiopian - "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?" (Acts 8:36)
Jailer and family - "immediately he and all his household were baptized." (Acts 16:33)
The believers discover their sin - "Brothers! What shall we do!?" ... "be baptized" Acts 2
Gentiles saved - "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water." (Acts 10:47)
Acts 22:16 "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

Your doctrine of "faith only" says "Stop! Wait! No need to rush! There's a big baptism service in 6 months time. You can get baptised then."

5. Baptism, according to the writers of the NT is an easy to understand elementary basic teaching, that doesn't need to be continually repeated throughout scripture. You deny this by claiming that the verses that clearly state the purpose of baptism must be wrong, and must be interpreted to mean something else.

Acts 2:38 "be baptised for the forgiveness of sins."
Acts 22:16 "be baptized, and wash away thy sins"
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism, ...(that) we too might walk in newness of life.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 5:26 ...having cleansed her (the church) by the washing of water with the word
Titus 3:5 he saved us, ...by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 3:21 "it (baptism) saves you".


Your main techniques include the use of eisegesis to twist scriptures to fit your doctrine, as well as the use of corner cases and non-standard scenarios which you keep referring back to.

In conclusion, it seems that your loyalty to your doctrine is more important than the truth.

I pray that despite your beliefs, you urge others to be baptised immediately upon coming to faith, and not to wait for a baptism service some time down the track, as they might not live that long. Noone knows how long we have on this earth. All we can do is have faith, and be obedient.