What is death?

[Mikecpking]

If you insist. Nice dismissal though.

Here is something on the Rich man and Lazarus story and the influence of Hellenistic ideas in those times:

http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Luke/Lu16b.html

 

[Mikecpking]

What scripture can you base this on?

Rev 20

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

It is speculation, but if the wages of sin is death, then personally, I believe the unsaved will be anihilated after God's wrath is satisfied, based on it states nothing of the duration of being in the lake of fire.

 

[11822]

Maybe God loves us so much that he doesn't want to destroy us, so He separates us from Himself instead. Everything good comes from God, even for non believers. When we have no other place to turn, we look toward Him. Without God it would be hell. That is hell, separation from God. Think about it, there are 2 kinds of pain, physical which will not last long because we will all die, and spiritual pain which endures forever without God.

 

[11822]

One thing is for sure. Only by being with God can there be no more suffering. God is life, without God there is only suffering and death to look forward to.

 

[from scratch]

Rev 20

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

It is speculation, but if the wages of sin is death, then personally, I believe the unsaved will be anihilated after God's wrath is satisfied, based on it states nothing of the duration of being in the lake of fire.

Please explain the following verses -


45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. MK 9

Yes I realize that you quoted this above. I wonder if you copied it from the Bible or from some religious material because of the bolded title?
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20

Are there two different lakes of fire. Are the results different for humans than the false prophet, the beast and the devil are or will be residing?

Are the devil, the beast and false prophet annihilated?

 

[David64]

Just a little honest research, please Scratch.

 

[JohnRabbit]

this verse is for those who think the "soul" is immortal:

1 John 3:15(NKJV)
15Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

i would think this verse alone should clear up a lot of controversy. now, if one believes that the soul can live forever, i suggest that one would find it hard to get by this verse.

also:

Romans 4:17(NKJV)
17...—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

here's one proof from the bible that the dead do not have life!

"calls those things which do not exist as though they did", definition of resurrection!

so, God is able (blessed be His Name and His Christ! ) to bring to life those who are dead or don't exist anymore, annihilated, destroyed, however you want to state it,

God has the power to raise the dead back to life!.

 

[Timothew]

The flesh and the soul aren't the same thing and your illustration therefore lacks at explaining the issue. You have linked death only to the physical body and that is all. This is the punishment for murder by the law of the land. The law of the land does happen to be in accord with the law of Moses, but so is the law of New York and Califorinia Neither are connected to each other. Thus we have coinsidence and nothing more.

Your post has nothing to do with defining death.

Youdidn't ask me to define death, you asked me to show you how annihilation could be a punishment, which I did. You still haven't shown how my eternal death as payment for my sins would not be a punishment for my sins.

Now that you are also asking me to define death, death is the loss of life.

 

[Timothew]

The Bible definition of death is "separation"

No, this isn't true at all.
The greek word for death is Thanatos. It means death, not separation. The greek word for separation is aphorizo (ἀφορίζ&#969 and it means to separate, to place apart from. Aphorizo doesn't mean death. Aphorizo is never used to indicate death. The two words are unrelated.

 

[Stryder06]

The term is used widely NTL the soul isn't the body of flesh - See Gen 1.

That's actually Genesis 2. The body was made from the dust of the earth. God breathed into man the breath of life, and man became a soul. The bible is rather straight forward about this.

 

[zeke37]

at the death of the flesh, we all go to heaven....good or bad.
as lazarus and the rich man story goes, there is a gulf in between the good part and the not so good part...

that is the first death, that of the flesh.

the second death, for those it applies to, is the death of the soul in the lake of Fire at Judgement.

there is no eternal torture in flames etc, for the wicked.....
the result of what happens in the lake of fire, the evil soul's annihilation, is eternal.

 

[JohnRabbit]

at the death of the flesh, we all go to heaven....good or bad.
as lazarus and the rich man story goes, there is a gulf in between the good part and the not so good part...

that is the first death, that of the flesh.

the second death, for those it applies to, is the death of the soul in the lake of Fire at Judgement.

there is no eternal torture in flames etc, for the wicked.....
the result of what happens in the lake of fire, the evil soul's annihilation, is eternal.

so what is Jesus talking about?

John 3:13(NKJV)
13No one has ascended to heaven...

 

[zeke37]

Jesus made the comparison to David.

not even David has done what Christ did.

Christ sits at the right hand of God, the power of God, and no man does that.

no man has ascended of his own accord. Only God Himself, in Christ.


we have plently of scripture showing the dead/men in heaven.

Rev5/12/19/22 to name a few.

 

[Mikecpking]

Jesus made the comparison to David.

not even David has done what Christ did.

Christ sits at the right hand of God, the power of God, and no man does that.

no man has ascended of his own accord. Only God Himself, in Christ.


we have plently of scripture showing the dead/men in heaven.

Rev5/12/19/22 to name a few.

No one is there yet, because no one has been raised up yet, because it is not yet the last day
.

John 6:40
New International Version (NIV)

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

 

[zeke37]

any one that has died is there today.

if they are righteous, they will come with Him, when He comes at His 2nd Coming...

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

those returning dead, are returning from heaven with Him, and will be raised here on earth, at the last day.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Jesus made the comparison to David.

not even David has done what Christ did.

Christ sits at the right hand of God, the power of God, and no man does that.

no man has ascended of his own accord. Only God Himself, in Christ.


we have plently of scripture showing the dead/men in heaven.

Rev5/12/19/22 to name a few.

i've reread jn 3 and don't see the comparison to david (besides, Jesus said "no one"), however, speaking of david, paul said:

Acts 2:29(NKJV)
29“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

notice that paul said "he" is dead and buried, not parts of him, and tell us where "he" is - in the grave!

and:

Acts 2:34(NKJV)
34“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

seems pretty emphatic to me and consistent with jn 3:13, also makes the "of his own accord" just sound weird to me.

so, what is paul talking about?

 

[Mikecpking]

any one that has died is there today.

if they are righteous, they will come with Him, when He comes at His 2nd Coming...

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

those returning dead, are returning from heaven with Him, and will be raised here on earth, at the last day.

Sorry, Zeke, but you have it the wrong way round. Look at 1 corinthians 15 and you will see that its not the believers being brought from heaven, but from the grave, because God is the grave too, as he is omnipresent.

Psalm 139:8

New International Version (NIV)


8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there



'Depths' is from the Hebrew word 'sheol' which is synomonous with the grave.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

No one is there yet, because no one has been raised up yet, because it is not yet the last day
.

John 6:40
New International Version (NIV)

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

I think you're forgetting someone...

 

[from scratch]

at the death of the flesh, we all go to heaven....good or bad.
as lazarus and the rich man story goes, there is a gulf in between the good part and the not so good part...

that is the first death, that of the flesh.

the second death, for those it applies to, is the death of the soul in the lake of Fire at Judgement.

there is no eternal torture in flames etc, for the wicked.....
the result of what happens in the lake of fire, the evil soul's annihilation, is eternal.

I'm sorry but I seem to be missing something here. I would very much like to see some Scriptural support for your opening statement.

How can heaven be not so good? If that is true why do people desire to go there? I can't find any Scriptural support for such a statement. So help me out here.

How can one be annihilated and bear eternal torture at the same time? Do you understand the word annihilation? Or is it me and my dictionary?

 

[from scratch]

so what is Jesus talking about?

John 3:13(NKJV)
13No one has ascended to heaven...

Now there is a good question. Congratulations!!!