What is death?

[from scratch]

i've reread jn 3 and don't see the comparison to david (besides, Jesus said "no one"), however, speaking of david, paul said:

Acts 2:29(NKJV)
29“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

notice that paul said "he" is dead and buried, not parts of him, and tell us where "he" is - in the grave!

and:

Acts 2:34(NKJV)
34“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

seems pretty emphatic to me and consistent with jn 3:13, also makes the "of his own accord" just sound weird to me.

so, what is paul talking about?

So what is Paul talking about? I need a little more discussion and perhaps some Scipture wouldn't hurt.

 

[from scratch]

I think you're forgetting someone...

Me too! I think something is missing.

 

[from scratch]

Here is something on the Rich man and Lazarus story and the influence of Hellenistic ideas in those times:

Rich Man and Lazarus; Parable of Jesus

The home page for this site states Christ's ministry not complete at the cross which is contrary to the Scripture. As a basis for the site it is therefore it is in error on everything else.

 

[Sieben]

The real question is...
what is love?
baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more

Other then that I agree with people being in the grave until the Resurrection.
I believe there are two ressurections and we have not encountered them yet.
People bring up the excuse of separating the body with the Spirit, but I am not sure why he would have to ressurect our bodies during the tribulations then? What about the surprise "we will see him and be satisfied". Technically, during the last trumpet it says he it is time for the rewarding of the Saints (Resurrection) So this also pushes this.

Examples: John 6:40, John 6:44, Daniel 12:2, John 6:54, John 12:48, John 11:24


Anyways..
one for the just who will reign with him in the millennial kingdom, another one for the new just and the wicked. The wicked will be thrown into the lake of fire to pay for their sin, the just will live forever. yippee

 

[from scratch]

Just a little honest research, please Scratch.

Are you suggesting that I'm being dishonest? Show me instead of flaming me. You didn't provide discussion, just a personal attack. This is called ad hominem. Such an agrument proves there is no evidence to support your view. You can read about fallacious argumenets here - Fallacies

 

[Mikecpking]

The home page for this site states Christ's ministry not complete at the cross which is contrary to the Scripture. As a basis for the site it is therefore it is in error on everything else.

I agree, but it doesn't make the article untrue about the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. There are plenty of other articles stating the same from mainstream sources.
Many ideas from Greek philosophy have polluted Christian thought.

 

[David64]

Are you suggesting that I'm being dishonest? Show me instead of flaming me. You didn't provide discussion, just a personal attack. This is called ad hominem. Such an agrument proves there is no evidence to support your view. You can read about fallacious argumenets here - Fallacies

It was a challenge for you to do better.

You're very thin skined, always ready to be offended. Jo.16:1

 

[David64]

The home page for this site states Christ's ministry not complete at the cross which is contrary to the Scripture.

Really?

That answers a lot of questions about your ideas.

 

[Timothew]

Are you suggesting that I'm being dishonest? Show me instead of flaming me. You didn't provide discussion, just a personal attack. This is called ad hominem. Such an agrument proves there is no evidence to support your view. You can read about fallacious argumenets here - Fallacies

I looked at your link. It is an interesting website. Thanks for posting it, I want to save the link and dig deeper later on. I'm thinking of a fallacy where a person says one thing wrong, and his opponent jumps in and says "well you can't believe anything he says, because he was wrong about X". Do you know what kind of fallacy that one is?

 

[David64]

I looked at your link. It is an interesting website. Thanks for posting it, I want to save the link and dig deeper later on. I'm thinking of a fallacy where a person says one thing wrong, and his opponent jumps in and says "well you can't believe anything he says, because he was wrong about X". Do you know what kind of fallacy that one is?

Yea, it's called the scratchonian fallacy.

 

[Timothew]

Yea, it's called the scratchonian fallacy.

I think it might be the "sweeping generalization" fallacy.

 

[YosemiteSam]

so what is Jesus talking about?

John 3:13(NKJV)
13No one has ascended to heaven...

It means just what it says.... No one but Christ is in heaven even at this hour.... The first resurrection has not taken place yet... It will take place at the second coming of Christ....

I hear oft those who think they go to heaven when they die and will be resurrected when Christ returns.... Makes no sense whatsoever... Why would one who has "put on immortality" now have to put back on "mortality"... See ... it holds no water...

David when resurrected will be in the Kingdom of God...He will have put on immortality...he well not be flesh and blood

 

[YosemiteSam]

That's actually Genesis 2. The body was made from the dust of the earth. God breathed into man the breath of life, and man became a soul. The bible is rather straight forward about this.

you got it right...but just to clear something up or make it more clear...

"and man became a living soul"... see before the breath of life (air) man was just the opposite ...a dead soul... there was no life in him... "the soul that sinneth it shall die" EZ 18.20

 

[YosemiteSam]

Maybe God loves us so much that he doesn't want to destroy us, so He separates us from Himself instead. Everything good comes from God, even for non believers. When we have no other place to turn, we look toward Him. Without God it would be hell. That is hell, separation from God. Think about it, there are 2 kinds of pain, physical which will not last long because we will all die, and spiritual pain which endures forever without God.

Really? If one has no life -- in other words --- dead! He does not experience any of which you are talking about... He does not experience a spiritual pain as you put it...

Eccl 9.5 "the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing and wait for no more reward, the memory is forgotten"

Eccl 9:10 "For whatsoever you hands find to do it with your might, for there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave where you go"

David said Ps 115.17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence..."

So there is no pain, spiritual or physical after death!

 

[11822]

Really? If one has no life -- in other words --- dead! He does not experience any of which you are talking about... He does not experience a spiritual pain as you put it...

Eccl 9.5 "the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing and wait for no more reward, the memory is forgotten"

Eccl 9:10 "For whatsoever you hands find to do it with your might, for there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave where you go"

David said Ps 115.17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence..."

So there is no pain, spiritual or physical after death!

It was just theory, i said "maybe". You are saying that the devil goes into eternal torment forever and ever but those who God calls children of satan will just be killed? Maybe you're right. Personally I would wrather escape eternal punishment rather than just death. Sometimes that looks good to some people that are tired of this world. But eternal punishment, now that's another matter. But it doesn't matter what i think, only the truth, so whatever the truth is, i agree with it.

 

[zeke37]

i've reread jn 3 and don't see the comparison to david (besides, Jesus said "no one"), however, speaking of david, paul said:

Jesus said no one has ascended.
to me, that means of his own accord.
you can't get to heaven without going through Jesus.

and I was referencing Acts2 for David.

Acts 2:29(NKJV)
29“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

notice that paul said "he" is dead and buried, not parts of him, and tell us where "he" is - in the grave!

yes, his body is in the grave, but his spirit (conciousness) is in heaven waiting with the other righteous
to come back to earth with Christ and be raised on earth again, as promised.

and:

Acts 2:34(NKJV)
34“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

seems pretty emphatic to me and consistent with jn 3:13, also makes the "of his own accord" just sound weird to me.

so, what is paul talking about?

there is no contradiction.
as I have said, we have plently of biblical scripture that shows the dead in heaven doing things...
see the Rev quotes...Rev5, 12, 19, 22.
since there are dead in heaven, today, the Acts2 and John3 scriptures reference Jesus only, not us. It can't because we have plently of scripture showing the dead in heaven before the end comes.

so, Paul and Jesus refered to the WAY and POWER that one gets to heaven.
who else has ascended like Christ?
no one.
why?
because He's God.

who else sits at the right hand of God...not David or anyone else.

Sorry, Zeke, but you have it the wrong way round. Look at 1 corinthians 15 and you will see that its not the believers being brought from heaven, but from the grave, because God is the grave too, as he is omnipresent.

all dead are in heaven...in spiritual bodies.

Ressurection is so the righteous dead can have life here on earth again.
that is the promise.

remember that in 1Thes4, the dead return with God, and are raised here, at the last day.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

the ressurection is not for life in heaven...noooooooooo.

I'm sorry but I seem to be missing something here. I would very much like to see some Scriptural support for your opening statement.

How can heaven be not so good? If that is true why do people desire to go there? I can't find any Scriptural support for such a statement. So help me out here.

I was speaking of the two sides of the gulf in the afterlife,
where righteous lazarus and Abraham were on one side of the gulf, and the unrighteous rich man was on the other.

same plane of existance, as they can talk to and see each other.

one side of the gulf is a whole lot better than the other.

How can one be annihilated and bear eternal torture at the same time?

they cannot, that is why eternal torture is a fasle doctrine.

Do you understand the word annihilation? Or is it me and my dictionary?

oooo, nasty...what did I do to you??? lol.

i think it has to do with many folks misapplication of scripture.
the smoke of their torments rises forever, but they are not being burned forever.
and no one is in the lake of fire until judgement anyway.

 

[zeke37]

It means just what it says.... No one but Christ is in heaven even at this hour.... The first resurrection has not taken place yet... It will take place at the second coming of Christ....

all the dead are in heaven today.
Abraham, lazarus and the rest. see Luk16...see Rev5, 12, 19, 22.
they wait there until the ressurection. see 1Thes4/1Cor15
the ressurection is for the dead to live on earth again, as they had before.

i have no idea why many here seem to think that the ressurection is for the dead to be rasied from the grave to live in heaven.

that makes no sense.

the righteous dead are already in heaven, and at His 2nd Coming they return with Him from heaven, to here...
and they are rasied here.
those alive at that time are changed to be like them and gathered to their collective.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I hear oft those who think they go to heaven when they die and will be resurrected when Christ returns.... Makes no sense whatsoever...

makes perfect sense. see 1Thes4
i think you are misapplying the term ressurection, and seeing it backwards.
we are not ressurected for life in heaven....no.
we are ressurected for life on earth.

Why would one who has "put on immortality" now have to put back on "mortality"... See ... it holds no water...

who said they would?
the righteous dead that leave heaven with Him and come here at His 2nd Coming and are ressurected here, are indeed immortal.
the promise of life forever and ever, takes place right here on earth.

this is where eternity will be.

David when resurrected will be in the Kingdom of God...He will have put on immortality...he well not be flesh and blood

i never mentioned flesh and blood.
the spirits that return with Christ at the 2nd Coming, will not be in flesh and blood bodies....no.
they will be rasied here, in those same heavenly immortal spiritual bodies that they existed in heaven with.

does that clear it up?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Now there is a good question. Congratulations!!!

you mean i got something right????

yay me!

 

[from scratch]

It means just what it says.... No one but Christ is in heaven even at this hour.... The first resurrection has not taken place yet... It will take place at the second coming of Christ....

I hear oft those who think they go to heaven when they die and will be resurrected when Christ returns.... Makes no sense whatsoever... Why would one who has "put on immortality" now have to put back on "mortality"... See ... it holds no water...

David when resurrected will be in the Kingdom of God...He will have put on immortality...he well not be flesh and blood

We don't take on mortality at the resurrection. Neither did Jesus and we'll be like Him in physical form. I not as sure about the wicked. But I don't think they take back on themselves the flesh either.

 

[from scratch]

you mean i got something right????

yay me!

How bout dem cookies?