What is death?

[11822]

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[from scratch]

OK, Let's say someone breaks the law and needs to be punished. The crime was multiple murders. If the person is killed by lethal injection, then he was punished. He lost his life as punishment. How is this NOT punishment? Let's say the state went further and instead of lethal injection, killed the criminal by annihilation. How is that NOT punishment?

So how is being dead forever and ever instead of being alive forever NOT punishment?

The flesh and the soul aren't the same thing and your illustration therefore lacks at explaining the issue. You have linked death only to the physical body and that is all. This is the punishment for murder by the law of the land. The law of the land does happen to be in accord with the law of Moses, but so is the law of New York and Califorinia Neither are connected to each other. Thus we have coinsidence and nothing more.

Your post has nothing to do with defining death.

 

[Sieben]

The wicked get Resurrection too... so your illustration is moot timothew

 

[Mikecpking]

The flesh and the soul aren't the same thing and your illustration therefore lacks at explaining the issue. You have linked death only to the physical body and that is all. This is the punishment for murder by the law of the land. The law of the land does happen to be in accord with the law of Moses, but so is the law of New York and Califorinia Neither are connected to each other. Thus we have coinsidence and nothing more.

Your post has nothing to do with defining death.

The biblical version of death is like this:

Psalm 146:4

King James Version (KJV)


4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.


Genesis 3:19

King James Version (KJV)


19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

King James Version (KJV)


7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Spirit is the breath of God to give a person (or animal) life. All go to dust.

 

[Sieben]

Dan 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Both wicked and the just get a ressurection

 

[Mikecpking]

The wicked get Resurrection too... so your illustration is moot timothew

They do, but they will suffer the 2nd death after being thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Sieben]

They do, but they will suffer the 2nd death after being thrown into the lake of fire.

true; after they pay off all their sin in the lake they die, or atleast thats how i perceive it

 

[from scratch]

Yes they would need to exist to experience torment.

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not torment.
The punishment for sin is death, not torment. If someone is experiencing torment, they are not dead.

Did you read what Jesus said or my previous post? Here is the speech Jesus gave -
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. LK 16

How about earlier in the chapter where this is found - Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

Where are the everlasting habatations of the unrighteous?

 

[Mikecpking]

true; after they pay off all their sin in the lake they die, or atleast thats how i perceive it

That is what I believe also. Only when God's wrath has been satisfied, they will cease to be.

 

[from scratch]

Not one person or animal has a soul, they are one! There is no such thing as an eternal or an immortal soul.

Genesis 2:7 clearly states that man becomes a soul upon the infusion of divine breath and at death, the 'soul' nephesh dies (numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30. Death is a cessation of breathing to the Hebrew and ruach breath returns to God (who gave it) ecclesiates 12:7, Psalm 146:4.

Really, do you think I that ignorant and can't read? I trying to decide if this isn't really a flame. No really thank your lucky stars I believe in grace.

 

[from scratch]

true; after they pay off all their sin in the lake they die, or atleast thats how i perceive it

Gotta clean my screen now.

 

[Mikecpking]

Did you read what Jesus said or my previous post? Here is the speech Jesus gave -
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. LK 16

How about earlier in the chapter where this is found - Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

Where are the everlasting habatations of the unrighteous?

It was a parable, not literal.

Jesus was using the Pharisees' own teaching against them (Rich man dressed in purple!)(Later jewish thought had been polluted by Babylonian and Greek ideas) And I quote from the Jewish encyclopaedia:
""
The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, ""

There are no other references to Abraham's bosom elsewhere in scripture!

 

[11822]

They do, but they will suffer the 2nd death after being thrown into the lake of fire.

Why do unsaved sinners get killed in the lake of fire but Satan and the false profit stay in the lake of fire being tormented, for ever and ever?

 

[from scratch]

That is what I believe also. Only when God's wrath has been satisfied, they will cease to be.

Gotta start keeping a box of wipes to clean my screen. You guys are to much.

 

[Mikecpking]

Really, do you think I that ignorant and can't read? I trying to decide if this isn't really a flame. No really thank your lucky stars I believe in grace.

It is not a flame; I am merely pointing out the 'soul' ceases to be at physical death to one of your earlier posts.

And sorry, I don't follow astrology.

 

[from scratch]

It was a parable, not literal.

Jesus was using the Pharisees' own teaching against them (Rich man dressed in purple!)(Later jewish thought had been polluted by Babylonian and Greek ideas) And I quote from the Jewish encyclopaedia:
""
The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, ""

There are no other references to Abraham's bosom elsewhere in scripture!

If you insist. Nice dismissal though.

 

[Mikecpking]

Why do unsaved sinners get killed in the lake of fire but Satan and the false profit stay in the lake of fire being tormented, for ever and ever?

Why? You have to ask God that, but those not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, but says nothing of the duration. The only non stop torment is reserved for the beast, false prophet and Satan.

 

[Mikecpking]

If you insist. Nice dismissal though.

It was a valid point you raised. But, Jesus was clearly stating that the Pharisees were no longer the only ones with access to God, but even the gentiles can gain access to the father.

 

[11822]

Really, do you think I that ignorant and can't read? I trying to decide if this isn't really a flame. No really thank your lucky stars I believe in grace.

I don't see any flaming.

 

[11822]

Why? You have to ask God that, but those not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, but says nothing of the duration. The only non stop torment is reserved for the beast, false prophet and Satan.

What scripture can you base this on?