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What is death?

Timothew

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Ah then the soul doesn't die. It is just seperated from the body at the demise of the body and God.
There is another thread that asks the question "What is the soul?"
You should go to that thread. The synopsis is: "Soul" refers to the Hebrew word Nephesh, and means a person. Ezekiel 18:20 says "the soul that sins shall die". This means "the person who sins shall die", not his son or his father, but him.

Anyway, regardless of what you believe a "soul" is, it can die. Matt 10:28 says "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
 
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Timothew

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Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


This isn't a parable. Yep, tormented for ever and ever...
Read further: John tells us what he means by the Lake of Fire. It is the second death, not eternal torment. Rev 20:14 "The lake of fire is the second death."
 
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from scratch

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There is another thread that asks the question "What is the soul?"
You should go to that thread. The synopsis is: "Soul" refers to the Hebrew word Nephesh, and means a person. Ezekiel 18:20 says "the soul that sins shall die". This means "the person who sins shall die", not his son or his father, but him.

Anyway, regardless of what you believe a "soul" is, it can die. Matt 10:28 says "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
The term is used widely NTL the soul isn't the body of flesh - See Gen 1.
 
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11822

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Read further: John tells us what he means by the Lake of Fire. It is the second death, not eternal torment. Rev 20:14 "The lake of fire is the second death."

Then why does John say the lake of fire is where eternal torment is found?


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
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from scratch

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Read further: John tells us what he means by the Lake of Fire. It is the second death, not eternal torment. Rev 20:14 "The lake of fire is the second death."
IOW the second death isn't only seperation as you stated earlier, but indeed evaporation or anihiliation the ceaseing to exist. Well that would clearly qualify as seperation, wouldn't it? That however isn't what you said. What you're clearly saying here to me is there is no such thing as eternal punishment. I think this is contrary to Scripture.
 
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Timothew

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IOW the second isn't only seperation as you stated earlier, but indeed evaporation or anihiliation the ceaseing to exist. Well that would clearly qualify as sepoeration, wouldn't it? That however isn't what you said. What you're clearly saying here to me is there is no such thing as eternal punishment. I think this is contrary to Scripture.
Nice. Explain to me how dying and being dead forever and ever and ever is somehow not eternal punishment.

I think saying that people don't really die is contrary to scripture, specifically Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death, 2 Thess 1:9 they pay the penalty of eternal destruction, among many other bible passages.

IOW, I am NOT saying "there is no such thing as eternal punishment", I just don't limit the definition of eternal punishment to only meaning being burned alive (while dead, yet somehow alive) in the fiery torture pit.
 
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from scratch

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Everything refered to in the Bible as a soul has one.
Everything from whales to mankind.
Breath has no actions or emotional capabilities such as murder, stealing or the breaking of another aspect of the law. Breath isn't redeemed. Animals have no redeemable soul such as man. Animal do exactly as God made to behave within parameters. And yes they can be trained to unnatural behavior patterns for them by man as provided for in the command to Adam. Every plant or animal on the planet responds to food.
 
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Nice. Explain to me how dying and being dead forever and ever and ever is somehow not eternal punishment.

I think saying that people don't really die is contrary to scripture, specifically Romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death, 2 Thess 1:9 they pay the penalty of eternal destruction, among many other bible passages.

IOW, I am NOT saying "there is no such thing as eternal punishment", I just don't limit the definition of eternal punishment to only meaning being burned alive (while dead, yet somehow alive) in the fiery torture pit.
Sure after you explain annihiliation is punishment.

What is torment? Surely what you discribe is punishment. What did Jesus say about the rich man who obviously could not escape his predicament? Please don't tell me God (Jesus) is teaching paganism.
 
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Timothew

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Sure after you explain annihiliation is punishment.
OK, Let's say someone breaks the law and needs to be punished. The crime was multiple murders. If the person is killed by lethal injection, then he was punished. He lost his life as punishment. How is this NOT punishment? Let's say the state went further and instead of lethal injection, killed the criminal by annihilation. How is that NOT punishment?

So how is being dead forever and ever instead of being alive forever NOT punishment?
 
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11822

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OK, Let's say someone breaks the law and needs to be punished. The crime was multiple murders. If the person is killed by lethal injection, then he was punished. He lost his life as punishment. How is this NOT punishment? Let's say the state went further and instead of lethal injection, killed the criminal by annihilation. How is that NOT punishment?

So how is being dead forever and ever instead of being alive forever NOT punishment?

How can someone be tormented if they cease to exist? Wouldn't they need to exist in order to experience torment?
 
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Timothew

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How can someone be tormented if they cease to exist? Wouldn't they need to exist in order to experience torment?
Yes they would need to exist to experience torment.

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not torment.
The punishment for sin is death, not torment. If someone is experiencing torment, they are not dead.
 
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Mikecpking

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Breath has no actions or emotional capabilities such as murder, stealing or the breaking of another aspect of the law. Breath isn't redeemed. Animals have no redeemable soul such as man. Animal do exactly as God made to behave within parameters. And yes they can be trained to unnatural behavior patterns for them by man as provided for in the command to Adam. Every plant or animal on the planet responds to food.

Not one person or animal has a soul, they are one! There is no such thing as an eternal or an immortal soul.

Genesis 2:7 clearly states that man becomes a soul upon the infusion of divine breath and at death, the 'soul' nephesh dies (numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30. Death is a cessation of breathing to the Hebrew and ruach breath returns to God (who gave it) ecclesiates 12:7, Psalm 146:4.
 
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Timothew

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Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner! Eternal torment would cease upon our destruction; making it decidedly non-eternal.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner, If destruction is non-eternal, then the destroyed person becomes un-destroyed after a certain period of time. Making it decidedly NOT destruction.
Oh, wait you weren't a winner after all. What you said made no sense at all.
 
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David64

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Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner! Eternal torment would cease upon our destruction; making it decidedly non-eternal.


There is no claim of never ending torment for mankind in the Bible.

The torment will occur when they realize that are going to be thrown into the lake of fire and for the short time it takes the fire to kill them.

That punishment is eternal, to never be recovered from.

There is only eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

A God of love could never engage in that kind of activity.

That is just part of the great lie Saten has perpetrated on this world.

A god that would do that would be an ogre.

The god of this world would love for you to believe that about God.
 
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11822

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Yes they would need to exist to experience torment.

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not torment.
The punishment for sin is death, not torment. If someone is experiencing torment, they are not dead.

You seem to be saying that death means ceasing to exist, and that we don't go into eternal punishment without Christ, and that we instead experience death or ceasing to exist. You seem to also say that the lake of fire is not torment. I'm confused.
 
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11822

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Timothew: After searching through the scriptures a little, i can agree that eternal death could be ceasing to exist. But if so, why does john say that satan and the false profit will be thrown in the lake of fire and tormented day and night, for ever and ever?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
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Mikecpking

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Then why does John say the lake of fire is where eternal torment is found?


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

These beings will be tormented day and night forever, because the nature of their rebellion against God was unique. I don't believe its true for humans, unless one chooses to receive the mark and worship the beast.
 
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