What is death?

[from scratch]

all the dead are in heaven today.
Abraham, lazarus and the rest. see Luk16...see Rev5, 12, 19, 22.
they wait there until the ressurection. see 1Thes4/1Cor15
the ressurection is for the dead to live on earth again, as they had before.

i have no idea why many here seem to think that the ressurection is for the dead to be rasied from the grave to live in heaven.

that makes no sense.

the righteous dead are already in heaven, and at His 2nd Coming they return with Him from heaven, to here...
and they are rasied here.
those alive at that time are changed to be like them and gathered to their collective.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


makes perfect sense. see 1Thes4
i think you are misapplying the term ressurection, and seeing it backwards.
we are not ressurected for life in heaven....no.
we are ressurected for life on earth.



who said they would?
the righteous dead that leave heaven with Him and come here at His 2nd Coming and are ressurected here, are indeed immortal.
the promise of life forever and ever, takes place right here on earth.

this is where eternity will be.


i never mentioned flesh and blood.
the spirits that return with Christ at the 2nd Coming, will not be in flesh and blood bodies....no.
they will be rasied here, in those same heavenly immortal spiritual bodies that they existed in heaven with.

does that clear it up?

Death is a very fasinating subject, isn't it? Yes I do think it is on topic to talk about eternal life as well. It contrasts eternal death.

 

[from scratch]

Jesus said no one has ascended.
to me, that means of his own accord.
you can't get to heaven without going through Jesus.

and I was referencing Acts2 for David.

yes, his body is in the grave, but his spirit (conciousness) is in heaven waiting with the other righteous
to come back to earth with Christ and be raised on earth again, as promised.


there is no contradiction.
as I have said, we have plently of biblical scripture that shows the dead in heaven doing things...
see the Rev quotes...Rev5, 12, 19, 22.
since there are dead in heaven, today, the Acts2 and John3 scriptures reference Jesus only, not us. It can't because we have plently of scripture showing the dead in heaven before the end comes.

so, Paul and Jesus refered to the WAY and POWER that one gets to heaven.
who else has ascended like Christ?
no one.
why?
because He's God.

who else sits at the right hand of God...not David or anyone else.



all dead are in heaven...in spiritual bodies.

Ressurection is so the righteous dead can have life here on earth again.
that is the promise.

remember that in 1Thes4, the dead return with God, and are raised here, at the last day.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

the ressurection is not for life in heaven...noooooooooo.


I was speaking of the two sides of the gulf in the afterlife,
where righteous lazarus and Abraham were on one side of the gulf, and the unrighteous rich man was on the other.

same plane of existance, as they can talk to and see each other.

one side of the gulf is a whole lot better than the other.


they cannot, that is why eternal torture is a fasle doctrine.

oooo, nasty...what did I do to you??? lol.

i think it has to do with many folks misapplication of scripture.
the smoke of their torments rises forever, but they are not being burned forever.
and no one is in the lake of fire until judgement anyway.

Hmmm! I don't recall Lazarus and the rich man communicating to each other. Couldn't seem to find it eaither. What verse did you say that is in?

Now if they have no rest, how can they be annihilated - Rev 14:11?

 

[from scratch]

Really? If one has no life -- in other words --- dead! He does not experience any of which you are talking about... He does not experience a spiritual pain as you put it...

Eccl 9.5 "the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing and wait for no more reward, the memory is forgotten"

Eccl 9:10 "For whatsoever you hands find to do it with your might, for there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave where you go"

David said Ps 115.17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence..."

So there is no pain, spiritual or physical after death!

Please explain Rev 14:11. Thanks.

 

[Timothew]

Hmmm! I don't recall Lazarus and the rich man communicating to each other. Couldn't seem to find it eaither. What verse did you say that is in?

Now if they have no rest, how can they be annihilated - Rev 14:11?

That parable is in Luke, Chapter 16. The parable is not about the living conditions in hades.

Revelation also talks about a 7 headed beast, do you also take that literally? And if so, why don't you take Paul literally when he writes in a NON-apocalyptic letter that the Wages of Sin is Death?

 

[from scratch]

Yea, it's called the scratchonian fallacy.

Hey I'm honored. But I gotta ask you to quote me from any source with that statement in it implying such to anybody. It just isn't my style.

 

[11822]

I think its funny how we can argue over rules and uphold CF rules and make each other obey them, but not Gods rules, We cant teach Gods rules.

 

[from scratch]

I looked at your link. It is an interesting website. Thanks for posting it, I want to save the link and dig deeper later on. I'm thinking of a fallacy where a person says one thing wrong, and his opponent jumps in and says "well you can't believe anything he says, because he was wrong about X". Do you know what kind of fallacy that one is?

No I don't. Sorry. Let me ask you something though. If one supports a known heresy are they not suspect for anything else? Do they not deserve extreme scrutiny on everything? I think so. I grew up with much false teaching and personally got tired of looking through the garbage for something good. Just isn't profitable. Even a homeless drunk has a great idea but I don't go asking him for direction in life. Same goes for a child. I have witnessed adult learning from them and heard them testify to such. But they don't go seeking advice from children.

 

[YosemiteSam]

all the dead are in heaven today.
Abraham, lazarus and the rest. see Luk16...see Rev5, 12, 19, 22.
they wait there until the ressurection. see 1Thes4/1Cor15
the ressurection is for the dead to live on earth again, as they had before.

You might want to re-think this...

i have no idea why many here seem to think that the ressurection is for the dead to be rasied from the grave to live in heaven.

I never said that they will live in heaven

that makes no sense.

The resurrection of the dead IS the only thing that makes sense...1 Cor 15:29

the righteous dead are already in heaven, and at His 2nd Coming they return with Him from heaven, to here...
and they are rasied here.
those alive at that time are changed to be like them and gathered to their collective.

No they come with him but only after they rise to meet him in the air (heaven)

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Bingo! The dead in Christ shall RISE...At His coming! They will be resurrected children of God...immortal 1 Cor 15


makes perfect sense. see 1Thes4
i think you are misapplying the term ressurection, and seeing it backwards.
we are not ressurected for life in heaven....no.
we are ressurected for life on earth.

Resurrected, YES...Not off somewhere living in heaven which the Saints are not living in heaven even now...Acts 2:38, Heb 11:39-40 "All these died having a good report through faith, not having received the promise...that they without us should not be made perfect"!!!!!!



i never mentioned flesh and blood.
the spirits that return with Christ at the 2nd Coming, will not be in flesh and blood bodies....no.
they will be rasied here, in those same heavenly immortal spiritual bodies that they existed in heaven with.

Thats where you might re-think the scenario you have come up with...Why would they need to be raised if they in fact are already spirit (immortal) beings with Christ in heaven? There would be nothing to raise, judgment has already passed. The bible is very clear on the fact that man does NOT have immortality in him...

does that clear it up?

The spirit in man is where most get confused...They automatically think that it is the spirit that imparts life...they think that the spirit by-itself can survive...it simply cannot...it is a human spirit, not an immortal spirit!

Lev 17:14 "....for the life of all flesh is the blood"
Duet 12:23 "...for the blood is life"

Life is in the blood not the human spirit!!!! God says so!

 

[YosemiteSam]

That parable is in Luke, Chapter 16. The parable is not about the living conditions in hades.

Revelation also talks about a 7 headed beast, do you also take that literally? And if so, why don't you take Paul literally when he writes in a NON-apocalyptic letter that the Wages of Sin is Death?

AGREE

 

[YosemiteSam]

It was just theory, i said "maybe". You are saying that the devil goes into eternal torment forever and ever but those who God calls children of satan will just be killed? Maybe you're right. Personally I would wrather escape eternal punishment rather than just death. Sometimes that looks good to some people that are tired of this world. But eternal punishment, now that's another matter. But it doesn't matter what i think, only the truth, so whatever the truth is, i agree with it.

You can't agree with something you don't know....search the scriptures!

 

[from scratch]

Really?

That answers a lot of questions about your ideas.

To what don't you think Christ's work on the cross completed? He said it is finished. Surely you must be referencing the Investigative Judgement that began some 1800 years after the cross. Why the delay? Did Jesus (God) have some troble accessing the records? How funny especialy that He is all knowing and omni present. Since He is there what is there for Him to examine as He already knows.

 

[from scratch]

It was a challenge for you to do better.

You're very thin skined, always ready to be offended. Jo.16:1

You have no idea how much I would love to address this issue. NTL I must stay out of trouble and not with you. Therefore I can't discuss it. All I can say is it isn't me who does the barking.

 

[YosemiteSam]

We don't take on mortality at the resurrection. Neither did Jesus and we'll be like Him in physical form. I not as sure about the wicked. But I don't think they take back on themselves the flesh either.

NO, we will not be like Jesus in the physical form...We will be like Him in the spiritual form....Born again into the Kingdom of God...We will be spiritual beings not physical flesh and blood beings...

Those resurrected in the Great White Throne Judgment period will be resurrected physical human beings...that resurrection is at the end of the 1000 year period...

after that there is a third resurrection of the incorrigible...they will go to the lake of fire...burned up...ashes under the soles of the saints...they will not inherit eternal life...they will not be born into the family of God...remember murders, thieves, liars etc...will not go into the family of God...they will simply be burned up...their memory forgotten...the smoke of their torment will rise forever...lights out for eternity...

 

[11822]

You have no idea how much I would love to address this issue. NTL I must stay out of trouble and not with you. Therefore I can't discuss it. All I can say is it isn't me who does the barking.

I hope you're not referring to the CF "rules" again are you? (Just messing with you Scratch)

 

[from scratch]

NO, we will not be like Jesus in the physical form...We will be like Him in the spiritual form....Born again into the Kingdom of God...We will be spiritual beings not physical flesh and blood beings...

Those resurrected in the Great White Throne Judgment period will be resurrected physical human beings...that resurrection is at the end of the 1000 year period...

after that there is a third resurrection of the incorrigible...they will go to the lake of fire...burned up...ashes under the soles of the saints...they will not inherit eternal life...they will not be born into the family of God...remember murders, thieves, liars etc...will not go into the family of God...they will simply be burned up...their memory forgotten...the smoke of their torment will rise forever...lights out for eternity...

This immediately comes to mind - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. I John 3:2 How is this spiritual form. Didn't Jesus disciples see and were invited to touch Him after the resurrection. One can't touch a spirit. What about the encounter with Mary in the garden. What about Jesus' ability to appear in a secured room? A ghost/spirit can't eat solid food.

 

[from scratch]

That parable is in Luke, Chapter 16. The parable is not about the living conditions in hades.

Who said it was? I find it incidental details NTL details about truth. And it does concern the topic.

Revelation also talks about a 7 headed beast, do you also take that literally? And if so, why don't you take Paul literally when he writes in a NON-apocalyptic letter that the Wages of Sin is Death?

Doesn't answer the question being asked.

Want to discuss anything I said?

 

[from scratch]

Really? If one has no life -- in other words --- dead! He does not experience any of which you are talking about... He does not experience a spiritual pain as you put it...

Eccl 9.5 "the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing and wait for no more reward, the memory is forgotten"

Eccl 9:10 "For whatsoever you hands find to do it with your might, for there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom in the grave where you go"

David said Ps 115.17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence..."

So there is no pain, spiritual or physical after death!

Not what God said.

 

[YosemiteSam]

This immediately comes to mind - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. I John 3:2 How is this spiritual form. Didn't Jesus disciples see and were invited to touch Him after the resurrection. One can't touch a spirit. What about the encounter with Mary in the garden. What about Jesus' ability to appear in a secured room? A ghost/spirit can't eat solid food.

Christ can manifest himself to appear human, just as he did in the cases mentioned above. He could not have appeared to them in all His glory or they would have all died... Only you say that a spirit being cannot eat food. I on the other hand have not quarrel with the fact that Jesus ate food after He was resurrected...I would think that the Creator of all things, wouldn't have a problem eating food if He so choose.

Christ is not a physical being, He is a spiritual being, a loving spiritual being that loves His creation...ie man!

 

[YosemiteSam]

Not what God said.

Actually it is what God said...2 Tim 3.16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

 

[David64]

To what don't you think Christ's work on the cross completed? He said it is finished. Surely you must be referencing the Investigative Judgement that began some 1800 years after the cross. Why the delay? Did Jesus (God) have some troble accessing the records? How funny especialy that He is all knowing and omni present. Since He is there what is there for Him to examine as He already knows.

Changing the subject won't change the truth.