Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ormly]

Ben wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdust
He didn't speak of participation. He said it was "solely man's responsibility to save himself or lose himself". As the context was salvation from sin, he errs considerably.

The saving, is all of God and nothing of us; but becoming saved, is solely man's responsibility. There's no way to deny Paul's words: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourself..." 1Tim4:16

Ben, Paul was writing to born again folk. How do you reconcile that with your thinking? They were already saved. Given the rest of Paul's writings to the churches, don't you believe it speaks of something far greater than initial salvation?

Add this to your thinking: In Romans 8:17, Paul writes of our joint heirship with Christ. Birth relationship gives one the right to heirship, but participation in all that heirship involves comes only to those who live unto the Father’s intention.

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,

Sin cannot go anywhere. It is a parasite, a disease of man. It is of the flesh of man which dies. It is the ONLY reason we die once, physically in our existance to rid the body of sin. So when mankind is raised at the last day, we all will be raised incorruptible, immortal. Christ the Judge will then separate those who spiritually, not physically have either been IN Christ, or rejected Christ. Those who rejected Christ will be separated spiritually from God, not physically. It is impossible for God to be separated from His creation, surely His creature, man. We live and move and have our being through His Grace. In hell mankind is still a creature.

They will all be flesh and bone when resurrected and never die physically again. Those who died in sin upon their resurrection, remain in sin and will be cast into hell. End of story. That's good Bible.

it takes more than just prooftexting to understand the Bible. Matt 5:22, Psa 68:2-3, Rev 14:9-10, Psa 97:1-5, all through the Bible fire is used as a metaphor.

I believe your thinking is a metaphor. So whats with your prooftexting?

Amazing, is it not, that despite how "Biblical" one says they are, that they only believe that which is in the Bible, nothing more and nothing less, just how much our preconcieved concepts and ideas can limit our understanding, and even seem to miss verses that speak quite clearly to the issue.

Sure is. Your are indeed, amazing.

We have not, due to God's great mercy and patience with us sinners, experienced the full presence of God because He knows most of us cannot yet handle it. Judgement day is coming into His presence fully, "face to face" and as the above verses show, for the unrighteous it will not be a pleasant experience. God's presence is with us, but it is hidden from us to give us time. This is why no one has seen a form of God other than Jesus Christ.

Moses saw the form of God. Need a "prooftext" for that?

This is why Adam and Eve, after they sinned, hid from God because they could not endure His presence whereas before they walked openly with Him.

Is that what the Bible, you say you understand, says?

God loved the world, including all sinners.

No, He didn't and doesn't.

When does it ever say that God stopped loving sinners.

Where does it say He loved them all? I read where He hated many.

They are His creatures, they all bear His Image. God does not change, but man's perception of Him changes.

Which is why I am reading this strange speak from you.

His Love becomes wrath for those who desire to shun it, to remove themselves from its light and warmth.

Sweet words but empty; devoid of understanding.

Here is what St. John Maximovich had to say about it:
"'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation.

Yes. It will be destroyed by real live fire and remade to be what it was before the fall.

Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds.
Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience!

I guess it will be like a dream, eh? Nothing really physically happening, correct?

Hardly, but a Christian who has accepted and believed the Gospel once given and how it has always been understood. It is not of my own making, or my own personal perception or theory, as you have persistantly put forth.

It is an adulterated mixer of truth and error with heavy emphasis on error.

It is unfortunate that "western Christianity" has been so greatly influenced by Augustine, Anselm, Abelard, and Aquinas. Their concept is of a God that seeks revenge, who seeks satisfaction, seeks punishment, rather than a God of Love. That God seems ruled and controlled by some higher, more powerful force than Himself to which He is obligated.

Your brush is too wide when you say western Christianity. Your eastern brand is as much incomplete as you to proclaim others to be. God has already judged this world. There will be no transformation when He has already declared He will make all things new. There will be no repairs made to this world.

Just something the think about.

I have and it is "wanting".

Answer me this: Would Christ have still be necessary if Adam had never transgressed?

 

[Ormly]

Correct; and those who believe, are in Christ (and He in them). Yet as Paul says in 2Tim2:11-13, if WE are faithless, then HE denies us before God.

Ben, Can you reconcile this verse with your above.

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV)

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

Would Christ have still be necessary if Adam had never transgressed?

Not revealed. But knowing what we do know without speculation, No.
You make a lot of assertions, but never any proof of them. You give nothing in rebuttal. If you disagree, why? What theology can you present that would refute the Gospel that has been held consistantly, constantly without change within the Body of Christ for 2000 years.
Why would one want, need to change the unchanging Gospel?
Whatever view you might have, can you give any historical authenticity of its understanding, practice and faithfulness as the Gospel?

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,

Not revealed. But knowing what we do know without speculation, No.

Then you obviously know nothing about the cross principle Adam was to submit to and the acheivement He would have enjoyed and you can't discuss it.

You make a lot of assertions, but never any proof of them. You give nothing in rebuttal. If you disagree, why?

What are you looking for, prooftext? You say you aren't and yet dismiss out of hand rebuttal given you, falling back upon your oft repeated "church" infallibility as the excuse. I fully understand the scripture I use in what I offer up as my reasoning of them. You can't and don't do that preferring to defer to your "Church" as the authority.

What theology can you present that would refute the Gospel that has been held consistantly, constantly without change within the Body of Christ for 2000 years.
Why would one want, need to change the unchanging Gospel?

See what I mean. I can shooot YOUR gospel full of holes
simply because it is empty. There is no power in it.

What hasn't changed in 2000 yrs is the attempted destruction of the Church of Jesus Christ by mindset such as your's, determined to cling to what can't save. You however, wouldn't recognize that because the overwhelming semblance you embrace as truth..

Whatever view you might have, can you give any historical authenticity of its understanding, practice and faithfulness as the Gospel?

Sure, the power of God in the people of God. You want to know who they are? Step outside your "church" buliding.

 

[GenemZ]

They will all be flesh and bone when resurrected and never die physically again. Those who died in sin upon their resurrection, remain in sin and will be cast into hell. End of story. That's good Bible.

Only those who believe in Christ will never die again. Mortality will put on immortality.

But? To unbelievers who are resurrected to stand before the Lord? Once their flesh hits the Lake of Fire? Their flesh and bones will be consumed. Their soul will once again be without a body. Hence... "the second death."

Their souls will be in torment for ever. They will lose their body a second time. Second death.

Its not their sins that will be judged in the Lake of Fire. If that were the case? Then Jesus did not pay the penalty for the sins of the world. He did.

1 John 2:2 (New International Version)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."​

Its not man's sins that will be punished. Jesus received that punishment on the Cross. Its men's evil that is to be punished in the fire.

The sin nature resides in the flesh. In contrast.. evil comes from man's soul. Only souls will remain in the second death of torments, not the flesh. The flesh can not survive the flames! Only the indestructable soul survives! The soul absent of body = death.

Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."​

In Christ, GeneZ




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[Ormly]

Only those who believe in Christ will never die again. Mortality will put on immortality.

But? To unbelievers who are resurrected to stand before the Lord? Once their flesh hits the Lake of Fire? Their flesh and bones will be consumed. Their soul will once again be without a body. Hence... "the second death."

Their souls will be in torment for ever. They will lose their body a second time. Second death.

Its not their sins that will be judged in the Lake of Fire. If that were the case? Then Jesus did not pay the penalty for the sins of the world. He did.

1 John 2:2 (New International Version)​

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."​

​

Its not man's sins that will be punished. Jesus received that punishment on the Cross. Its men's evil that is to be punished in the fire.

The sin nature resides in the flesh. In contrast.. evil comes from man's soul. Only souls will remain in the second death of torments, not the flesh. The flesh can not survive the flames! Only the indestructable soul survives! The soul absent of body = death.

Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)​

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."​

​

In Christ, GeneZ




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Without a body there is no soul.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, Paul was writing to born again folk. How do you reconcile that with your thinking? They were already saved. Given the rest of Paul's writings to the churches, don't you believe it speaks of something far greater than initial salvation?

No --- it "dovetails" perfectly with the idea of "He who endures to the end will be saved". Salvation is both an INSTANT thing (when we believe/receive Jesus), and a CONTINUAL thing (when we WALK/ABIDE in Him). As Paul says in Rom1:17, "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; the just shall live by faith."

Add this to your thinking: In Romans 8:17, Paul writes of our joint heirship with Christ. Birth relationship gives one the right to heirship, but participation in all that heirship involves comes only to those who live unto the Father’s intention.

There are not "multiple positions", Ormly; a person is saved, or not.

We are heirs, or lost.

Ben, Can you reconcile this verse with your above.

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV)

I see two disparate positions there.

1. Died with Him (referencing the "dead to sin and born anew, from above", united with Jesus in death/crucifixion/immersion/buried --- into His death; and into His resurrection. Rom6:1-4.

Those who have died, shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.

That's the first position. The second:

2. If we DENY Him, He will deny us (Matt10:33-34); and we will not reign with Him.

If we are FAITHLESS, yet He remains faithful (even though we PERISH.

We cannot be "faithlessly-saved"; so Him remaining faithful, in the FACE of us being faithless, does not mean "we're still saved".

Make sense?

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

Then you obviously know nothing about the cross principle Adam was to submit to and the acheivement He would have enjoyed and you can't discuss it.

so, why not enlighten me with theory?

What are you looking for, prooftext? You say you aren't and yet dismiss out of hand rebuttal given you, falling back upon your oft repeated "church" infallibility as the excuse. I fully understand the scripture I use in what I offer up as my reasoning of them. You can't and don't do that preferring to defer to your "Church" as the authority.

I have seen no single explanation as yet on anything you disagreed with. See above statement.
the Church Infallibility is the Gospel once given. It is Christ through the Holy Spirit who gave us that Revelation for all, for all time. It has not changed in 2000 years. The Holy Spirit has not permitted it to be changed. He promised to preserve and guard that Truth and His Body. It does say that in the Bible you use, right?
You are showing you understand the scripture according to you but has no relevance to the world since it is not the Gospel of Christ, once given. I don't follow the gospel of any man.

See what I mean. I can shooot YOUR gospel full of holes
simply because it is empty. There is no power in it.

Because it lacks the power of your sole intellect? See if you can refute the Gospel once given.

What hasn't changed in 2000 yrs is the attempted destruction of the Church of Jesus Christ by mindset such as your's, determined to cling to what can't save. You however, wouldn't recognize that because the overwhelming semblance you embrace as truth..

Another assertion with not a shred of evidence. Might be the destruction of private religions of man, like yours. that has also been going on for 2000 years. No man has been able to change that Gospel, yet you make a feeble attempt at it.

Sure, the power of God in the people of God. You want to know who they are? Step outside your "church" buliding.

All I see is mass confusion and the privatization of religion. You cannot, or have not yet even shown a inkling that what you might think the Bible means was ever believed and practiced in the history of Christianity. You present your interpretation and that is the end of it. Hardly the universal Gospel of Christ for the age.

 

[GenemZ]

Without a body there is no soul.

Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.

The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.

Revelation 20:4 (New American Standard Bible)​

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."


​

​

These "beheaded" ones? Were alive as souls while in Heaven.

But, to reign with Christ (on earth)? They will be given a new body to be alive on earth.


The soul does not need a body while being in Eternity. The invisible soul is visible (and heard) in Heaven.

Revelation 6:9-10 (New International Version)​

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"


​

​

Souls that are not living can not cry out...



But? If those same souls were placed inside of the material world (time and space)? The world would be dead to them. For without a body the soul can not be seen, nor heard.




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[Ormly]

[

quote=genez;45802406]

Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.

The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.

In your mind, it can be anyway you want it to be..I know what Genssis says and, in mine, that is an absolute. Lets proceed from that point and then sort out where the problem in your understanding lies. I have no difficulty with the scriptures you cite that could lead one to believe otherswise, so please don't re-quote them.

​

 

[Ormly]

Ben wrote;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Ben, Paul was writing to born again folk. How do you reconcile that with your thinking? They were already saved. Given the rest of Paul's writings to the churches, don't you believe it speaks of something far greater than initial salvation?

No --- it "dovetails" perfectly with the idea of "He who endures to the end will be saved". Salvation is both an INSTANT thing (when we believe/receive Jesus), and a CONTINUAL thing (when we WALK/ABIDE in Him). As Paul says in Rom1:17, "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; the just shall live by faith."

Paul was still speaking to saved, born again, folk. Proceed from that absloute.

Quote:

Add this to your thinking: In Romans 8:17, Paul writes of our joint heirship with Christ. Birth relationship gives one the right to heirship, but participation in all that heirship involves comes only to those who live unto the Father’s intention.
There are not "multiple positions", Ormly; a person is saved, or not.


We are heirs, or lost.

No, thats wrong. Being saved does NOT assume anything further. One learns Joint-heir-ship. One learns son-ship; Throne-ship. One can be saved and not become: " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12 (KJV)

Quote:

Ben, Can you reconcile this verse with your above.

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV)
I see two disparate positions there.

1. Died with Him (referencing the "dead to sin and born anew, from above", united with Jesus in death/crucifixion/immersion/buried --- into His death; and into His resurrection. Rom6:1-4.

Those who have died, shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.

Which is the way of the cross; dying to "Self" and living unto the Father, while still in this body of flesh. In the what Paul is saying has more to do with the reason why we are saved and falling short is a loss of the purposed intention we were born again to enter into. Though saved, we miss it.

That's the first position. The second:

2. If we DENY Him, He will deny us (Matt10:33-34); and we will not reign with Him.

If we are FAITHLESS, yet He remains faithful (even though we PERISH.

We cannot be "faithlessly-saved"; so Him remaining faithful, in the FACE of us being faithless, does not mean "we're still saved".

Make sense?

You keep on the saved "drum-beat" believing heaven is the goal and is the complete message of the gospel. It is not and heaven should no longer be the goal for the one saved. Where else can Christian go when he dies? We are saved to become and the training is for now; the end of God's will for your life.

 

[GenemZ]

[

quote=genez;45802406]


In your mind, it can be anyway you want it to be..I know what Genssis says and, in mine, that is an absolute. Lets proceed from that point and then sort out where the problem in your understanding lies. I have no difficulty with the scriptures you cite that could lead one to believe otherswise, so please don't re-quote them.

Ormly? Gadooks! That was what I was explaining to you! What took place in Genesis. The soul was given a body, and it became a living soul in the material world.

Here!


Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.

The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.


After all I showed you from Revelation, how souls in Eternity (without bodies) are alive?


I am beginning to feel this is a hopeless cause to try and reason with someone who is stuck like you are. I showed you! Souls after death have life!

A soul only needs a body to be alive while in time and space. To be alive in the material world!


Here! Look again...

Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.

The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.

Revelation 20:4 (New American Standard Bible)​

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."


​

These "beheaded" ones? Were alive as souls while in Heaven.

But, to reign with Christ (on earth)? They will be given a new body to be alive on earth.


The soul does not need a body while being in Eternity. The invisible soul is visible (and heard) in Heaven.

Revelation 6:9-10 (New International Version)​

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"


​

Souls that are not living can not cry out... Can they? These souls, did! No body!



But? If those same souls were placed inside of the material world (time and space)? The world would be dead to them. For without a body the soul can not be seen, nor heard.

I can read what those passages say. I am sure others here can read, too. Why can't you? Maybe its because it destroys your preconceived notion that you have been clinging to? I think, that's why!

Wake up and see what the Word says! Not what you thought yesterday was the truth, but now are shown its not correct!

How are you ever going to grow? Best place to start, is to admit one is wrong so the truth can begin to take over. So, Christ through the Word can begin to reign in our lives.


In Christ, GeneZ




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[heymikey80]

The saving, is all of God and nothing of us; but becoming saved, is solely man's responsibility. There's no way to deny Paul's words: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourself..." 1Tim4:16

Kinda makes me wonder what the interpretation would be for, "yet they will be saved through childbearing"

 

[GenemZ]

Kinda makes me wonder what the interpretation would be for, "yet they will be saved through childbearing"

Well?

1Tim4:16 niv
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."
​

That speaks of being saved from the evils of this world through knowing the Word of God. After all... Jesus did say, "the truth will make you free."

In contrast... False doctrine is for believers who are slaves to this world. False doctrine never truly frees one from doubt.

A pseudo, overcoming, response to the evils of the world is sometimes manifested in those who have a natural tendency for self confidence.

That type of human self confidence can only rebuke evil, never effectively refute it. For, to refute it takes detailed knowledge, insight, and understanding. That requires spiritual self esteem. Religion can never impart spiritual self esteem.



In Christ, GeneZ




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[sawdust]

The saving, is all of God and nothing of us; but becoming saved, is solely man's responsibility. There's no way to deny Paul's words: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourself..." 1Tim4:16

Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 1Tim.4:15

The proceeding verse to the one you quoted. This is talking about growing up. It is talking about salvation from the lies and deceit that permeate this world.

It is not a matter of denying Paul's words, it is a matter of "rightly dividing" them.

Let me share with you something of what my pastor has taught me.

Truth comes in 3 categories.
1. The Laws of Divine Establishment.
These are the laws that govern relationships between men. ie Don't murder, steal etc. Honour your mother and father, have respect for those in authority over you etc. They are truths for all people, believer and unbeliever unlike. An example of an unbeliever living according to these truths is found in Romans 2:14&15.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

2. The Gospel
This is for unbelievers only. It is the message that sin is wrong, that sin must be judged and that only perfect righteousness can overcome the problem.

When he (the Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment. Jn.16:8

Hence the Cross. This salvation is a free gift. No man participated in overcoming the problem of sin except the man Jesus Christ. The issue of sin and the condemnation it rightly deserves has been dealt with. "It is finished" (Jn.30:17). This salvation applies to all men which is why even one who never believes will be raised from the dead.

But what has yet to be dealt with (in it's finality) among men is the problem of evil. This will occur at the resurrection. First to those who believe in Christ (those who belong to Him) then to those who don't. What is the Lord looking for at either of these two judgments? Faith. What is faith? It is the "meeting" between the Word and our willingness to believe in the Word. Overcoming sin does not require our participation. Overcoming evil and having faith does.

The Gospel truth is what separates the believer from the unbeliever. If one does believe, they now can go on to the third category of truth.

3. Bible Doctrine.
These truths are for believers only. This is what the verse you referenced earlier speaks of. These truths do not separate unbeliever from believer, these truths separate those who have God's approval and those who do not among believers.

No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 1Cor.11:19

That is correct; yet, "in Christ", is changeable. That's the warning to "abide", to "take care", to "be diligent". 2Cor13:5, 2Pet1:5-10, 1Tim4:16, 2Jn1:7-9, 1Jn2:26-28, Jude20-21, and many many more.

No it is not changeable. If one is "in Christ" they are "in Christ" forever.

38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn.6:38-40

You can't say that someone who believes in Christ, who is given to Christ, who will never be lost by Christ, who has eternal life, can now turn around and be more powerful than God and undo His promises.

The warnings you speak of are not that you might receive life, (the need of unbelievers). If you believe in the Gospel truth you already have it. It is so you might receive the reward of this life you have been given in both this life and the life to come.

Correct; and those who believe, are in Christ (and He in them). Yet as Paul says in 2Tim2:11-13, if WE are faithless, then HE denies us before God.

It does not say that. It says if we are faithless, He remains faithful.

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Please note it begins with "a trustworthy saying". In other words, these things are to be guaranteed true and utterly depended on. If an unbeliever is presented with the Gospel and believes? The Father puts him into Christ's death, the death Christ died for sin. You didn't die this death, I didn't die this death. Because the believer is now dead in regards to sin, there is nothing to separate him from God, they are guaranteed to also be raised up and spend eternity with Him. The "if" is not whether we die to sin ourselves, but whether we believe Christ did it on our behalf. To turn around and say that a person will only be with Christ eternally on the basis of their own "death to sin" is to call God a liar. If any man be in Christ he is a new creation. No-one can uncreate what God has created.

Context asserts we then will not reign with Him. (Are not saved.)

It says "won't reign", it doesn't say stop living with Him. It means that authority among believers, even in the eternal state, will not be uniform. You just might find someone like me giving you orders in the new creation.

In any kingdom Ben there are those who rule and those who are ruled over. If a believer does not place the Word first in the here and now and endure being taught, rebuked, corrected and trained up till they reach the full stature of Christ, then they sit at the bottom of the table and not up near the head of the table.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,2 Tim.3:16

No, it hasn't; it all begins with "faith". That's why verses like Rom1:17 say God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith.

Yes it has. It all begins with Christ's death on the Cross. There can be no faith apart from His death and resurrection.

The key word in what you quote is "revealed". The Lord's righteousness is revealed beginning when someone has faith. Do you think if no-one ever believes, the Lord is unrighteous? Of course you don't, but who would ever know He is righteous if not through faith?

Sawdust, a "Christian" who does not realize the dynamics of salvation, isn't really saved, is he?

What does the scripture say Ben. Whosoever believes? or whosoever understands? One doesn't have to understand all the mechanics of salvation in order to be saved. Stone the crows, if that were the case none of us would be saved.

If Christ is in someone, how can he or she NOT "grow to maturity in Christ"? Impossible.

Ho ho ho. What's this? You turning all Calvinist on me Ben? You debate black and blue with the Calvinists on the role of volition in receiving life but now when it comes to reaching maturity in that life you want to negate the role of volition?. It is very possible not to grow up "in Christ". Those who refuse the ongoing truths of category 3 do not reach maturity. They will enter heaven as spiritual babies, children or teenagers.

This is why I like the "pregnant" analogy; a woman either IS pregnant, or is NOT --- likewise, we either ARE saved, or are NOT. There is no "in-between"...

We have the Son, or we do not; it begins with conscious faith, and persists with continual faith

I agree. And I like the analogy too. If you have the Son, you have life. Positional truth, cannot be altered. It is a gift from God. You can never be condemned for sin again and hence, cannot die (spiritually) and if you are alive at the time of the resurrection you will never even taste physical death. Even if one is unfaithful and clings to false doctrine beyond the faith of first importance (the Gospel), Christ remains faithful. He never abandons us.

Using your pregnancy analogy. It begins with copulation. Does one have to keep on copulating to remain pregnant? No. But if they want to have a nice healthy baby (as much as they can be responsible at least), then they need to follow certain procedures. As a mother, I can guarantee you once you are pregnant, you will have a baby ... one way or the other. In the same way ... if you have the Son? You will have life, one way or the other.

Just as a mother must follow a certain path for a healthy baby, the Lord has set out a certain path so we might grow up into the fullness of the life He has given us. Failure to fulfill the plan does not result in permanent loss of the life God has given, (it is a gift) but it will result in a very stunted "lifeform".

If you believe in Christ you have the Father's genes (so to speak). It is how we can be recognised. Some of our family members are easily recognisable, others not so's you would even know. But the Lord is never deceived. He knows who belongs to Him and He is not about to give eternal life to one who could not or would not appreciate it. He isn't that wasteful or that stupid.

peace

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

Hence the Cross. This salvation is a free gift. No man participated in overcoming the problem of sin except the man Jesus Christ. The issue of sin and the condemnation it rightly deserves has been dealt with. "It is finished" (Jn.30:17). This salvation applies to all men which is why even one who never believes will be raised from the dead.

that is not what scripture says. There is a massive difference in propitiating or atoning for sin and overcoming sin. Christ did not overcome sin. If that were so, then there would be no sin in this world today. Christ did not eradicate sin, not even our fallen natures in this life, nor the working of Satan in this life. You have effectively negated Satan in this world today by the above statement as well as all of our sinful actions.

But what has yet to be dealt with (in it's finality) among men is the problem of evil. This will occur at the resurrection. First to those who believe in Christ (those who belong to Him) then to those who don't. What is the Lord looking for at either of these two judgments? Faith. What is faith? It is the "meeting" between the Word and our willingness to believe in the Word. Overcoming sin does not require our participation. Overcoming evil and having faith does.

A nice philosopy which must be stated to compensate for the error of the above statement you made first. Evil is the result of sin. Sin is the problem we all face today. It is the ONLY problem we have in this world. We need to overcome sin in our lives. It is the whole purpose of LIVING IN CHRIST. We need His help to overcome sin.

No it is not changeable. If one is "in Christ" they are "in Christ" forever.

You will not find any single text or even a hint that this is stated or implied in Scripture. If we are justified by faith, and we are saved through our faith, then when we lose faith, become unfaithful, we are no longer justified and no longer being saved, we cannot be IN Christ. The ONLY way you are saved is to be IN Christ. ALL those promises of God apply to God. They do not apply to man. It is a mutual relationship and BOTH SIDES need to make promises. God made His and they are quite evident and we need not fear that He will renege on His. But where are your promises. You stated, probably, at your baptism that you would be faithful to him. Have you been so? But can you promise that faithfulness for yourself 10 years from now? Can you make the same finite promises as God has done toward you?

You can't say that someone who believes in Christ, who is given to Christ, who will never be lost by Christ, who has eternal life, can now turn around and be more powerful than God and undo His promises.

First, you already stated in your first comment I posted above that all men were given eternal life. This is correct. This is the Work of Christ on the Cross. All mankind were given to Him. In fact the entire world was given to Him and for Him. Col 1:15-20, it aligns perfectly with John 6:39 and II Cor 5:18-19.
No man will lose life. But that is not our problem. Our problem is that we can lose our spiritual connection, our spiritual life living IN Christ. It is why we all face spiritual death, eternal spiritual death because of sin in this world and our proclivity to permit it to lead our life instead of Christ.
We, man,. believer or unbeliever cannot undo the promises of Christ to us. Immpossibility because man had nothing to do in making them. We made our own promises which is what we need to keep. It is WE, as believers, that must be reconciled to God. II Cor 5:20. Man is solely responsible for his own reconciliation to God. We do it by faith, (justification) we live it through our faith. Thus FAITH is the key to our personal, individual salvation of our souls.

The warnings you speak of are not that you might receive life, (the need of unbelievers). If you believe in the Gospel truth you already have it. It is so you might receive the reward of this life you have been given in both this life and the life to come.

All men have life. You cannot equate faith with physical life. You can equate it with spiritual life which is what faith is to begin with. Faith cannot restore or gain eternal life, a physical life. But it can gain you eternal life WITH Christ, as opposed with an eternal life WITHOUT Christ. Go back to the texts of John6:39, Rom 5:18-19, Rev 20:12 and several other texts that all explicitedly state that all the dead, all of mankind will be raised in the last day. That is the anwer to the text of I Cor 15:20-22, as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. The Resurrection is possible because of the Incarnated Christ. It made our spiritual relationship with God a possibility which was precluded by the fall. Man did not have a problem with union or communion with God. We were created specifically for that purpose. But death, the fall. prevented this from every occuring thus the need for Christ to intervene and correct the fall, not our relationship with God.

Yes it has. It all begins with Christ's death on the Cross. There can be no faith apart from His death and resurrection.

Because it eliminated the fall which prevented man from having any consequence for his faith.

The key word in what you quote is "revealed". The Lord's righteousness is revealed beginning when someone has faith. Do you think if no-one ever believes, the Lord is unrighteous? Of course you don't, but who would ever know He is righteous if not through faith?

Not when one has faith but solely because ONE is a human beings. Christ made all mankind righteous. The problem here in your view is that you do not separate the Work of Christ from the response of man to that work. The word righteous just means to be put into a correct relationship. It does not have a legal, forensic meaning here. The words, justify, redeem, reconcile all have the very same meaning. They all put one into a correct relationship. Christ did that for mankind to God. Man does it in relation of himself to Christ. The latter is by faith. We reconcile ourselves to God, that's why it is called justification by faith. Same thing, same meaning.

What does the scripture say Ben. Whosoever believes? or whosoever understands? One doesn't have to understand all the mechanics of salvation in order to be saved. Stone the crows, if that were the case none of us would be saved.

But then Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, even the Moslems are saved if they believe in God. The question is what kind of God, the one of your own making, or the ONE revealed to us. Believing is living IN Christ. Christianity is all about living. It is a way of life. But to live that life correctly one must know, have knowledge of the God who you are believing.

Ho ho ho. What's this? You turning all Calvinist on me Ben? You debate black and blue with the Calvinists on the role of volition in receiving life but now when it comes to reaching maturity in that life you want to negate the role of volition?. It is very possible not to grow up "in Christ". Those who refuse the ongoing truths of category 3 do not reach maturity. They will enter heaven as spiritual babies, children or teenagers.

It has everything to do with volition. We must remain, abide, and if we do, THEN we will be make holy, blameless, conformed to His Image, remain partakers of His Divine Nature. But if we permit sin to reign in our lives, lose faith, we are NO LONGER IN CHRIST. We shall not inherit the Kingdom promised in the last day. I Pet 1:3-5. We are KEPT through OUR FAITH. No faith, no salvation.

You can never be condemned for sin again and hence, cannot die (spiritually) and if you are alive at the time of the resurrection you will never even taste physical death. Even if one is unfaithful and clings to false doctrine beyond the faith of first importance (the Gospel), Christ remains faithful. He never abandons us.

You are condemned every day for your sin. That is why we need to seek constant repentance of those sins. Our sins do convict us. We cannot live IN Christ and sin. If we do, we must confess them, He is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins. It is an ever active journey, an active effort to make sure the spirit rules in our lifes and not the flesh. If one is unfaithful, denies God, the God will deny him also. That is what God is being faithful about, His promises. He promised to remain with you, SO LONG AS YOU remained IN HIM. But if you forsake Him, having no faith, He will also forsake, deny you before His Father in Heaven. You cannot look at only one promise and then ignore the other, the opposite side.

He knows who belongs to Him and He is not about to give eternal life to one who could not or would not appreciate it. He isn't that wasteful or that stupid.

You mean eternal life WITH Him. And you are right. He knows who is being faithful. He also knows when we are not and if we do not repent, do not return before death, He will also deny you before His Father. He does not throw pearls to swine. If you do not desire Him, He will freely permit you to go. Man is free, it is innate in man being in His Image. God created us to be free because He wanted a creature that would respond freely, not under compulsion or created in union. If this were so, Adam could never have fallen in the first place.

 

[GenemZ]

A nice philosopy which must be stated to compensate for the error of the above statement you made first. Evil is the result of sin. Sin is the problem we all face today. It is the ONLY problem we have in this world. We need to overcome sin in our lives. It is the whole purpose of LIVING IN CHRIST. We need His help to overcome sin.

Evil came BEFORE sin. That is, if you believe God created all angels without sin. Satan chose evil from a perfect state of being having been created by God.

It was Satan's own EVIL that tempted the woman and the man in the Garden. Not sin originating from the woman and man. The result of heeding evil was sin.

If Adam had thought of it all himself? That God was lying to him? And, then ate? Then that would have been an act of evil.


We sin because when Adam heeded the voice of evil, he fell. When he fell. He took on the sin nature which produces sin. As a result? We are all born with a sin nature. So? We all sin. BUT! That does not mean we are all evil. Evil is the agreeing with a lie over the truth.

Sin causes impulses and desires that are contrary to God's intended design for man. We are all sinners. Some of all are sinners saved by grace. But, we are all sinners.

Now? What is evil? Evil is anti-faith thinking. Its a lie against the truth. Sin requires no special effort. It requires only submitting to a desire or impulse that comes from the sin nature. Evil in contrast, is a conscious effort to nullify truth with something contrary, or as a substitute, for the truth.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. But, he did not die for evil. Evil is what rejects Christ. Sin is the inability to be perfect in function. Many sinners cling to Christ for their salvation. They do not reject Christ. To reject Christ (and God's Word) is evil, not simply sin.

David was a terrible sinner, but he avoided evil and clung to God's truth. In great contrast, the Pharisees were highly moral, but the defied truth and substituted for it with their own ways. The Pharisees were evil. Not just sinners. That is why Jesus was so against them.

False doctrinal teachings = evil.

Fornication = sin.

Teaching that God approves of fornication = evil.
​

In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

Evil came BEFORE sin. That is, if you believe God created all angels without sin. Satan chose evil from a perfect state of being having been created by God.

Which is a sin. Evil is the result of sin. just as for Adam. He sinned and spiritually separated himself from God. We do evil because we are sinful.

It was Satan's own EVIL that tempted the woman and the man in the Garden. Not sin originating from the woman and man. The result of heeding evil was sin.

Yes because he sinned as became separated from God. God banned him from heaven due to sin, not evil.
Your are right that it was Satan's evil that tempted Eve, but is was Eve sin to oblige his evil intent.
so it is with us, heeding our flesh, makes us sinners. If we could overcome the flesh, flee sin, then we would have no evil in us either.

If Adam had thought of it all himself? That God was lying to him? And, then ate? Then that would have been an act of evil.

no that would have been an act of sin. Man separating himself from God. evil is not separation from God, but the result of sin which has already separated one from God.

We sin because when Adam heeded the voice of evil, he fell. When he fell. He took on the sin nature which produces sin. As a result? We are all born with a sin nature. So? We all sin. BUT! That does not mean we are all evil. Evil is the agreeing with a lie over the truth.

He sinned and was condemned to death for that sin. He did not take on a sin nature, but a fallen nature, a mortal nature, which causes us to sin. The flesh predominates in a mortal being. We all sin because we are mortal. We can even overcome sin. That is the point of being IN Christ. We overcome sin, thus we obviously would overcome evil, at least some of it to the extent we overcome sin.
Your theory does not fit scripture. You want man to be able to sin, but do not evil, or be immoral. Sinful men, that is unbelievers, can be the most moral people around, but that does not make them righteous.

Sin causes impulses and desires that are contrary to God's intended design for man. We are all sinners. Some of all are sinners saved by grace. But, we are all sinners.

Incorrect. Our flesh through the desires of that flesh tends rule our lives. If we permit it to do so, we are sinning. The desire leads to sin. We are all sinners because we all sin. We have not been able to overcome the flesh, will never overcome the flesh. We can simply alleviate the worst of man sinful acts, and with those we do, we seek forgiveness to remain IN Christ. We are all sinners and all sinners have been saved because of Grace. Rom 11:32.

It requires only submitting to a desire or impulse that comes from the sin nature.

not quite, sin is submitting to the desire of the flesh. The flesh rules because it is fallen.
Christ did not have a sin nature, which He would have in your theology. He would actually be sinful, but would not have been able to do evil. That is not what scripture states. He assumed our fallen natures, our mortality and was able through the divine will He also possessed to keep the human will in line with the Divine will. That is why He did not sin. But Jesus was fully capable of sinning. If not then He would be of no use to use. He overcame sin by His human will, led by the Divine will. Thus became the perfect lamb for the sacrifice of sin, but also through that Incarnation overcame death, the root cause of our sin and the condemnation through Adam.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. But, he did not die for evil. Evil is what rejects Christ.

He propitiated the sins of the world. He neither eradicated sin, nor the evil resulting from sinners. The rejection of Christ is the sin. Every act we do that is not in accordance with His will is a sin, It separates you from God. That is the definition of sin, missing the mark.

Sin is the inability to be perfect in function. Many sinners cling to Christ for their salvation. They do not reject Christ. To reject Christ (and God's Word) is evil, not simply sin.

Correct, it is missing the mark. It is missing to do His will, perfectly. Sinners cling to Christ because He alone can forgiven sins. We are in Christ ONLY because we have sought and been given forgiveness. We need to constantly keep ourselves reconciled to God because of sin.
You have a need to create this docotomy because you need sin to be permissible and have something else be the fault of man for some reason. Sin is our problem, not evil. Evil exists because we sin.

David was a terrible sinner, but he avoided evil and clung to God's truth.

He did not avoid evil. He brought on evil because of his sin. His sin of lust led to murder.

In great contrast, the Pharisees were highly moral, but the defied truth and substituted for it with their own ways.

Moral has absolutely nothing to do with being saved. The difference between the sin of both is that David repented.

The Pharisees were evil. Not just sinners

that is a contradiction to what you just stated. one can be moral, but being moral still makes one a sinner. But a moral perons need not be an evil person.

False doctrinal teachings = evil.

due to the sin of pride

Fornication = sin.

but may not be evil.

Teaching that God approves of fornication = evil.

from the sin of pride again, or arrogance maybe, goes to your first statment.
However, sin is our problem in this life. Will alway be with us in this life and it is what we need to overcome. We need to abide by the spirit rather than by the flesh. ONLY with the Spirits help can man overcome sin. We all sin, but those we do need to be forgiven. All unforgiven sin remains with us and will condemn us.

 

[sawdust]

Sawdust,

that is not what scripture says. There is a massive difference in propitiating or atoning for sin and overcoming sin. Christ did not overcome sin. If that were so, then there would be no sin in this world today. Christ did not eradicate sin, not even our fallen natures in this life, nor the working of Satan in this life. You have effectively negated Satan in this world today by the above statement as well as all of our sinful actions.

A nice philosopy which must be stated to compensate for the error of the above statement you made first. Evil is the result of sin. Sin is the problem we all face today. It is the ONLY problem we have in this world. We need to overcome sin in our lives. It is the whole purpose of LIVING IN CHRIST. We need His help to overcome sin.

You will not find any single text or even a hint that this is stated or implied in Scripture. If we are justified by faith, and we are saved through our faith, then when we lose faith, become unfaithful, we are no longer justified and no longer being saved, we cannot be IN Christ. The ONLY way you are saved is to be IN Christ. ALL those promises of God apply to God. They do not apply to man. It is a mutual relationship and BOTH SIDES need to make promises. God made His and they are quite evident and we need not fear that He will renege on His. But where are your promises. You stated, probably, at your baptism that you would be faithful to him. Have you been so? But can you promise that faithfulness for yourself 10 years from now? Can you make the same finite promises as God has done toward you?
First, you already stated in your first comment I posted above that all men were given eternal life. This is correct. This is the Work of Christ on the Cross. All mankind were given to Him. In fact the entire world was given to Him and for Him. Col 1:15-20, it aligns perfectly with John 6:39 and II Cor 5:18-19.
No man will lose life. But that is not our problem. Our problem is that we can lose our spiritual connection, our spiritual life living IN Christ. It is why we all face spiritual death, eternal spiritual death because of sin in this world and our proclivity to permit it to lead our life instead of Christ.
We, man,. believer or unbeliever cannot undo the promises of Christ to us. Immpossibility because man had nothing to do in making them. We made our own promises which is what we need to keep. It is WE, as believers, that must be reconciled to God. II Cor 5:20. Man is solely responsible for his own reconciliation to God. We do it by faith, (justification) we live it through our faith. Thus FAITH is the key to our personal, individual salvation of our souls.
All men have life. You cannot equate faith with physical life. You can equate it with spiritual life which is what faith is to begin with. Faith cannot restore or gain eternal life, a physical life. But it can gain you eternal life WITH Christ, as opposed with an eternal life WITHOUT Christ. Go back to the texts of John6:39, Rom 5:18-19, Rev 20:12 and several other texts that all explicitedly state that all the dead, all of mankind will be raised in the last day. That is the anwer to the text of I Cor 15:20-22, as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. The Resurrection is possible because of the Incarnated Christ. It made our spiritual relationship with God a possibility which was precluded by the fall. Man did not have a problem with union or communion with God. We were created specifically for that purpose. But death, the fall. prevented this from every occuring thus the need for Christ to intervene and correct the fall, not our relationship with God.
Because it eliminated the fall which prevented man from having any consequence for his faith.
Not when one has faith but solely because ONE is a human beings. Christ made all mankind righteous. The problem here in your view is that you do not separate the Work of Christ from the response of man to that work. The word righteous just means to be put into a correct relationship. It does not have a legal, forensic meaning here. The words, justify, redeem, reconcile all have the very same meaning. They all put one into a correct relationship. Christ did that for mankind to God. Man does it in relation of himself to Christ. The latter is by faith. We reconcile ourselves to God, that's why it is called justification by faith. Same thing, same meaning.
But then Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, even the Moslems are saved if they believe in God. The question is what kind of God, the one of your own making, or the ONE revealed to us. Believing is living IN Christ. Christianity is all about living. It is a way of life. But to live that life correctly one must know, have knowledge of the God who you are believing.

It has everything to do with volition. We must remain, abide, and if we do, THEN we will be make holy, blameless, conformed to His Image, remain partakers of His Divine Nature. But if we permit sin to reign in our lives, lose faith, we are NO LONGER IN CHRIST. We shall not inherit the Kingdom promised in the last day. I Pet 1:3-5. We are KEPT through OUR FAITH. No faith, no salvation.
You are condemned every day for your sin. That is why we need to seek constant repentance of those sins. Our sins do convict us. We cannot live IN Christ and sin. If we do, we must confess them, He is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins. It is an ever active journey, an active effort to make sure the spirit rules in our lifes and not the flesh. If one is unfaithful, denies God, the God will deny him also. That is what God is being faithful about, His promises. He promised to remain with you, SO LONG AS YOU remained IN HIM. But if you forsake Him, having no faith, He will also forsake, deny you before His Father in Heaven. You cannot look at only one promise and then ignore the other, the opposite side.
You mean eternal life WITH Him. And you are right. He knows who is being faithful. He also knows when we are not and if we do not repent, do not return before death, He will also deny you before His Father. He does not throw pearls to swine. If you do not desire Him, He will freely permit you to go. Man is free, it is innate in man being in His Image. God created us to be free because He wanted a creature that would respond freely, not under compulsion or created in union. If this were so, Adam could never have fallen in the first place.

This post is filled with so many scriptural errors, and that's even apart from your misunderstanding of what I actually said, that I am not going to bother to say any more to you.

sawdust