Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[sawdust]

genez,
Evil is the result of sin.

13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Evil comes before sin. Listen and learn something.

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

This post is filled with so many scriptural errors, and that's even apart from your misunderstanding of what I actually said, that I am not going to bother to say any more to you.

A great assertion which you have not proven as yet. All it might mean is that it does not align with your personal interpretation. But can you actually prove that yours is the Gospel once given, that has been believed and practiced since the Beginning. The Gospel that the Holy Spirit promised to protect, preserve within His Body.
On the other hand, can you show that what I state has not ever been the Gospel, has never been believed nor practiced from the beginning and is just a figment of my imagination?
If you really believe that your explanation is the Gospel, why would you stop short of explaining it?
Or is it that you do not really understand what I am explaining, or what you might even believe?

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Evil comes before sin. Listen and learn something.

which is due to our fallen flesh. The flesh is enticing you to sin, it is tempting you to sin. Sin is our problem, not the enticing. We can resist the enticing which we do when one is IN Christ. When we do sin, we need to seek forgiveness. It was not the enticing that was Adam's sin, but the giving in to the enticing of the devil which was an evil intent, to make man fall. You have created a dicotomy that does not exist in scripture.
Christ neither saved us from death or sin, but the bondage to death and sin. We still will die in this life, ONLY to rid ourselves of our fallen nature, the flesh, and we need no longer be in bondage to sin either. We still do sin, but we can overcome and those we do not can be forgiven. In many places sin and evil are equated. The Lord's prayer is an example. Deliver me from evil (sin).
Your evil, fallen enticing nature was due to sin, the sin of Adam. You were condemned to a fallen nature because of Adam's sin. It is the flesh that entices you to sin. the sin is what makes you a sinner not the enticing. Jesus was also tempted by the devil. Did He give in to the enticement? Did He sin? Could Jesus sin?

 

[GenemZ]

A great assertion which you have not proven as yet.

You always say that.

It can not be proven. It can only be revealed.

If man could prove it to you? All men would believe nothing but truth. All the others would be dead by the sword.

God does not want it that way. After all. Jesus witnessed to himself. He presented a PERFECT witness. Yet? Evil men were still free to reject. Were they not?

A great assertion which you have not proven as yet.

That's meaningless in regards to such matters. For one is always free to reject the truth! Truth is a gift from God. It can not be proven. It can only be confirmed in another who God wants to also give the truth to.

Matthew 16:16-17 (New International Version)
"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."​

The truth is a gift from God!

No man can prove it to you.

Ephesians 1:18 (New American Standard Bible)
"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints."​

In Christ, GeneZ





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[Rightglory]

Genez,

It can not be proven. It can only be revealed.

What is the difference? If I can reveal to you that for 2000 years Christianity has believed, practiced the very same faith, without change it would be fact, which it is. It is that most men do not accept revealed Truth. They never have, but rather seek their own truth, seek their own gods. To die to self is much to low for most men to stoop, but then they do not understand the Beatitudes.

If man could prove it to you? All men would believe nothing but truth. All the others would be dead by the sword.

A man did prove it to me, then the Holy Spirit led me to believe and accept that Truth. That is why happens with every Christian. They are led to the Truth, just as the Holy Spirit promised it would happen. But the Holy Spirit does not give each individual a private revelation of new material or understanding of a Truth that has long ago been given. He leads to the Truth ONCE given. It is that Truth that He, the Holy Spirit, has preserved. How could you ever account that the Truth, through men could last 2000 years without change, except that it must be of some higher power, namely that Holy Spirit. It surely is not by sola scriptura, which has produced changes in view of the very persons who make proclamations of one thing one year, then another some later year. Others change the original individuals interpretation because it did not mesh with theirs. All you have then is a private religion of one. You could not reveal anything, let alone prove it as Gospel. You would have no better credibility than Joseph Smith has, who also used scripture to support his view. As did all the others who used scripture to develope their own personal religion.

If man could prove it to you? All men would believe nothing but truth. All the others would be dead by the sword.
God does not want it that way. After all. Jesus witnessed to himself. He presented a PERFECT witness. Yet? Evil men were still free to reject. Were they not?

He promised a much different view than you make here. He promised to the disciples that they would be persecuted, they would be beaten, they would be put in jail, they would even die for His sake. All of it came to pass. It has for thousands of untold Christians throughout History, they would be persecuted for His sake, they would die, but by dying for His sake they shall live. That is the point, man is free to object, to reject and they have for centuries. Most are not willing to die for His sake either. Let alone live for His sake.

That's meaningless in regards to such matters. For one is always free to reject the truth! Truth is a gift from God. It can not be proven. It can only be confirmed in another who God wants to also give the truth to.

Hardly, one is free to object because that is the way God made man to be. God desires all men to be saved. He died so that all men could have the ability to believe to put their faith and trust in Him, not in themselves. God has poured out the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, He calls all men to repentance. He desires union with every soul, but many reject Him, for many reasons. How much do you really need to be revealed to you before you will see?

The truth is a gift from God!
No man can prove it to you.

Peter accepted the leading of the Holy Spirit, while many of His day did not. Many turned away. The calling is a gift of God as much as the Truth He reveals through that calling. But it is still man who accepts, it will always be man's responsibility to believe, to accept that calling.

"I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints."

I have, but have you? Have you accepted His Gospel as He gave it, or are you accepting your man-made self proclaimed interpretation of a Book? An interpretation that in most cases has never seen the light of day outside of yourself, let alone be the ONE Gospel given for all, for all time.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

What is the difference? If I can reveal to you that for 2000 years Christianity has believed, practiced the very same faith, without change it would be fact, which it is.

Not "Christianity," sir. Your sect within Christianity.


Keep this in mind.. The first Church, which resided in Jerusalem, first consisted of only Jews who believed in Christ. Some of your church's practices for the last 2000 years they would have cringed at.

You appear to believe that Jesus had the church begin with your demonination. It did not. You were not the first church.

Not that that matters. For God wanted indigenous autonomous churches to be led of the Spirit.



.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Ormly]

[


Ormly? Gadooks! That was what I was explaining to you! What took place in Genesis. The soul was given a body, and it became a living soul in the material world.

You mean the body was given a soul.

Here!

Without a body there is no soul able to live in time and space. That does not mean the soul ceases to exist when in eternity (outside of time and space). Souls without bodies are very much alive in Heaven.

And will be in Hell.

The soul needs a body to be alive on earth. To be alive while in time and space.
After all I showed you from Revelation, how souls in Eternity (without bodies) are alive?

And their bodies will be resurrected either unto Heaven or Hell. To hell for some where the worm never dies and the fire never quenched.

I am beginning to feel this is a hopeless cause to try and reason with someone who is stuck like you are. I showed you! Souls after death have life

!

And I believe that. I am sorry I am inconviencing you.

A soul only needs a body to be alive while in time and space. To be alive in the material world!


Here! Look again...

I can read what those passages say. I am sure others here can read, too. Why can't you? Maybe its because it destroys your preconceived notion that you have been clinging to? I think, that's why!

Because i believe you are trying to make them fit your preconceived notions.

Wake up and see what the Word says! Not what you thought yesterday was the truth, but now are shown its not correct!

How are you ever going to grow? Best place to start, is to admit one is wrong so the truth can begin to take over. So, Christ through the Word can begin to reign in our lives.

Wake up yourself and learn to understand that you aren't clear. Spare me your condescension.






.

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

Not "Christianity," sir. Your sect within Christianity.

Christianity is not a sect. It is a way of life.

Keep this in mind.. The first Church, which resided in Jerusalem, first consisted of only Jews who believed in Christ. Some of your church's practices for the last 2000 years they would have cringed at.

Hardly, when they are the same. Baptism, the Eucharist, confession, fasting, prayers were all established in that Jerusalem Church. The understanding of that Gospel has also been retained. That is the historical witness of the Holy Spirit in time. That Church by the way still exists and do several others, like the Church in Antioch, on Damascus Street. Same Church. the One Christ founded with the Apostles. Why would it not be in existance. Christ promised it would be until the end of time. Or don't you really believe what the Bible actually states.

You appear to believe that Jesus had the church begin with your demonination. It did not. You were not the first church.

It is the Body He founded with the Apostles, which they then proclaimed from Jeruselem, Judea and then all the Roman Empire of that day.It has never ceased to exist, it has retained the Gospel once given. Can you reveal it differently? No one has to this point. In fact, historians have confirmed it again and again.

Not that that matters. For God wanted indigenous autonomous churches to be led of the Spirit.

That is what they are, every single congregation is the whole Body. It is Trinitarian, Many are ONE. They are autonomous catholic Churches. Check your history. We are unified in faith and practice in UNION with Christ, who is the Head of the Body.

 

[Ormly]

genez,

Christianity is not a sect. It is a way of life.

Hardly, when they are the same. Baptism, the Eucharist, confession, fasting, prayers were all established in that Jerusalem Church. The understanding of that Gospel has also been retained. That is the historical witness of the Holy Spirit in time. That Church by the way still exists and do several others, like the Church in Antioch, on Damascus Street. Same Church. the One Christ founded with the Apostles. Why would it not be in existance. Christ promised it would be until the end of time. Or don't you really believe what the Bible actually states.
It is the Body He founded with the Apostles, which they then proclaimed from Jeruselem, Judea and then all the Roman Empire of that day.It has never ceased to exist, it has retained the Gospel once given. Can you reveal it differently? No one has to this point. In fact, historians have confirmed it again and again.
That is what they are, every single congregation is the whole Body. It is Trinitarian, Many are ONE. They are autonomous catholic Churches. Check your history. We are unified in faith and practice in UNION with Christ, who is the Head of the Body.

In union? No doubt, but not with/in/of, Christ. You are delusional to believe that. The Catholic church has too much to account for that has been at odds with Him for 2000 yrs.

 

[Ben johnson]

Paul was still speaking to saved, born again, folk. Proceed from that absloute.

That's correct --- only the saved, can fall. We are to persevere IN salvation.

No, thats wrong. Being saved does NOT assume anything further. One learns Joint-heir-ship. One learns son-ship; Throne-ship. One can be saved and not become: " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12 (KJV)

This is good --- to sufficiently address "forfeitability", we must first discuss what salvation is.

You are asserting "salvation", that then grows into "sonship".

What is that salvation, Orlmly? What happens so a person when he/she is SAVED, before becoming "heirs"?

Which is the way of the cross; dying to "Self" and living unto the Father, while still in this body of flesh.

It's much more than that. We don't "die to self", to BE saved, we "die to self" because we are united with Christ. Jesus --- a conscious, sentient Being --- indwells the believer, from the moment of belief. It is a communion between two conscious entities --- Creator, and creature.

That's the issue; dying is a conscious choice, because it means choosing to abide in Him.

Because Jesus cannot abide in anyone who does not believe and abide in Him, John15:4 can only read "Abide in Me, and I will abide in you."

In the what Paul is saying has more to do with the reason why we are saved and falling short is a loss of the purposed intention we were born again to enter into. Though saved, we miss it.

We must get back to the foundation, the definition of "saved".

Does one who is saved, "believe"? What is the extent of that "belief"?

Does he believe Jesus is God?
Does he believe that an intimate communion is necessary?
Does he spend time with God, praying to the Father and Son and Spirit?
Does he walk in sin?

How is "saved", defined? What is the difference between "saved-but-not-yet-sons", and "saved-sons"?

You keep on the saved "drum-beat" believing heaven is the goal and is the complete message of the gospel.

Not at all. Heaven is the destiny for the saved. What does "saved", mean?

It is not and heaven should no longer be the goal for the one saved. Where else can Christian go when he dies? We are saved to become and the training is for now; the end of God's will for your life.

What is "The Greatest Commandment"?

Does that commandment have anything to do with "salvation"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 1Tim.4:15

The proceeding verse to the one you quoted. This is talking about growing up. It is talking about salvation from the lies and deceit that permeate this world.

It is not a matter of denying Paul's words, it is a matter of "rightly dividing" them.

Hi, "Sawdust".
So you perceive a position of "saved but not-persevering, not abiding in the teachings". With respect, exactly what would salvation be to such a person?

"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." 1Tim4:1

What does "fall away from the faith" mean? Is that speaking of someone who was "never really IN the faith"? Or is there a "fallen-from-faith (turning instead to demonic doctrines)" that's still saved?

Let me share with you something of what my pastor has taught me.

Truth comes in 3 categories.
1. The Laws of Divine Establishment.
These are the laws that govern relationships between men. ie Don't murder, steal etc. Honour your mother and father, have respect for those in authority over you etc. They are truths for all people, believer and unbeliever unlike. An example of an unbeliever living according to these truths is found in Romans 2:14&15.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

2. The Gospel
This is for unbelievers only. It is the message that sin is wrong, that sin must be judged and that only perfect righteousness can overcome the problem.

1Cor1:18 "To us who are being saved the Word of the Cross is the power of God.

When he (the Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment. Jn.16:8

Hence the Cross. This salvation is a free gift. No man participated in overcoming the problem of sin except the man Jesus Christ. The issue of sin and the condemnation it rightly deserves has been dealt with. "It is finished" (Jn.30:17). This salvation applies to all men which is why even one who never believes will be raised from the dead.

Unbelievers are also redeemed?

But what has yet to be dealt with (in its finality) among men is the problem of evil. This will occur at the resurrection. First to those who believe in Christ (those who belong to Him) then to those who don't.

Those who don't belong to Christ; didn't you just say they are "redeemed"?

What is the Lord looking for at either of these two judgments? Faith. What is faith? It is the "meeting" between the Word and our willingness to believe in the Word. Overcoming sin does not require our participation. Overcoming evil and having faith does.

Please explain to me how overcoming sin does not require our participation. What of James1:14-16? What of 1Cor10:12-13? What of Rom6 (beginning with verse 1)?

The Gospel truth is what separates the believer from the unbeliever. If one does believe, they now can go on to the third category of truth.

3. Bible Doctrine.
These truths are for believers only. This is what the verse you referenced earlier speaks of.

Which verse --- 1Tim4:16? The one that's different from verse 1?

These truths do not separate unbeliever from believer, these truths separate those who have God's approval and those who do not among believers.

Let's discuss what kind of a "saved-believer" it is, who has not God's approval. What does such a person believe, Sawdust? How is he different from an "approved believer"?

No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 1Cor.11:19

Hmmm; the context speaks of those debating whether women should cover their heads; and speaks of one being hungry and another being DRUNK. Is it possible that "approved", means "saved"?

That is correct; yet, "in Christ", is changeable. That's the warning to "abide", to "take care", to "be diligent". 2Cor13:5, 2Pet1:5-10, 1Tim4:16, 2Jn1:7-9, 1Jn2:26-28, Jude20-21, and many many more.

No it is not changeable. If one is "in Christ" they are "in Christ" forever.

Let's discuss the verses I just posted:

2Cor13:5 "Examine yourselves, test yourselves, to see if you are in Christ. Do you not realize that Christ is in you, unless you FAIL THE TEST?"
Is "failing-the-test" possible, in Paul's words? If we fail, are we still "saved"?

2Pet1:5-10 "Supply in your faith moral excellence, self control, godliness, kindness, brotherly love; he who LACKS these qualities is blind, short-sighted, FORGOTTEN former purification from sins. THEREFORE be all the more diligent to make certain of your calling and election; as long as you PRACTICE these things you will not stumble/BECOME-WRETCHED. In THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE ...provided to you."
Was the man in verse 9 ever "saved" (formerly purified)? Is he held up as an example of NON-diligence? Why are we required to "be diligent", and why is the consequence clearly stated to be "so that Heaven's gates BE provided"?

1Tim4:16 We've already discussed this; you perceive it as "being saved from bad perception to others"; so I look forward to your comments on verse 1...
2Jn1:7-9 (Many deceivers have come into the world.) "WATCH yourselves, that you not lose what was wrought; anyone who GOES TOO FAR and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God. He who abides, has the Father and the Son."
What is the goal of the "deceivers"? This is written to believers; what was it that is "wrought"? Salvation, or mere crowns? If "crowns only", how is it that the next verse asserts "those who go too far and do not abide, have not God"? Look at two understandings:
1. Watch yourselves against deceivers, that you not lose heavenly rewards; anyone who goes too far (oh not US, we're watching our CROWNS; he's snap-changed and talking about those who were NEVER saved, who ALWAYS WERE too far) and does not abide in Christ's teachings, has not God; he who abides (snapped-back, talking about us-who-always-abide) has the Father and the Son.

2. Watch yourselves, against deceivers who always try to entice us away from God (Col2:6-8, 2Pet2:18, etc.); anyone who GOES TOO FAR (because of the decievers) and does not abide in Christ's teachings (LEAVES!), has not God; but he who abides (because he's watching), has the Father and the Spirit."

Please tell me why #1 is more credible than #2; how is #1 "rightly dividing", and #2 is "not"?

1Jn2:26-28 "These things I've written to you about those trying to DECEIVE you; now --- ABIDE in Him, so that when He returns we may have confidence and not shrink in shame..."
What's the point of the "deceiving"? Is "shrink-in-shame" possible, and if so would it be "still-saved"?

Jude20-21 "You, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the holy Spirit, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
Is it our choice to "build ourselves in faith"? Or to "keep ourselves in God's love"? Is the concept of keep-ourselves somehow connected to waiting-anxiously-mercy-eternal-life?

38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

We've discussed the connection with this verse, and Jn17:6; those who are given to Jesus --- they first "belong to God".

Does "belonging-to-God" denote "faith"? How could it not?
So "given-to-Jesus", means "given-THROUGH-faith". Agree?
And if one is given through faith, what happens if he ceases to believe?

40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn.6:38-40

Here again "eternal life" seems to condition on "who believes"; and that's the question --- can belief, change?

You can't say that someone who believes in Christ, who is given to Christ, who will never be lost by Christ, who has eternal life, can now turn around and be more powerful than God and undo His promises.

What has been promised, Sawdust?
He will lose none who are GIVEN, who BELIEVE.
What if a person ceases to believe? How is that not a choice?

The warnings you speak of are not that you might receive life, (the need of unbelievers). If you believe in the Gospel truth you already have it. It is so you might receive the reward of this life you have been given in both this life and the life to come.

That's right --- if you BELIEVE.

Look at the wording of Col2:6-8; deceivers have as their goal to deceive us away from belief in Christ. Is there any way to deny that fact, in these words?
"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, firmly rooted and being built up in Him and established in your faith. SEE that no one takes you CAPTIVE through philosophy and empty deception, according to worldly principles and men's dradictions, rather than ACCORDING TO CHRIST."

It really begins to appear that "belief", can be deceived to "unbelief", doesn't it?

It does not say that. It says if we are faithless, He remains faithful.

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Please note it begins with "a trustworthy saying". In other words, these things are to be guaranteed true and utterly depended on. If an unbeliever is presented with the Gospel and believes? The Father puts him into Christ's death, the death Christ died for sin. You didn't die this death, I didn't die this death. Because the believer is now dead in regards to sin, there is nothing to separate him from God, they are guaranteed to also be raised up and spend eternity with Him. The "if" is not whether we die to sin ourselves, but whether we believe Christ did it on our behalf. To turn around and say that a person will only be with Christ eternally on the basis of their own "death to sin" is to call God a liar. If any man be in Christ he is a new creation. No-one can uncreate what God has created.

So there must be only one of two possibilities:

1. We can never come to unbelief
2. We can be "faithlessly-saved".

To which do you hold?

It says "won't reign", it doesn't say stop living with Him. It means that authority among believers, even in the eternal state, will not be uniform. You just might find someone like me giving you orders in the new creation.

Let's see; those who are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection (before the 1000 years), will reign with Christ. Do you perceive there will be many Christians resurrected in the SECOND one?

In any kingdom Ben there are those who rule and those who are ruled over. If a believer does not place the Word first in the here and now and endure being taught, rebuked, corrected and trained up till they reach the full stature of Christ, then they sit at the bottom of the table and not up near the head of the table.

Please explain to me what the concept of "believer" means to you, if it allows someone "not placing the Word first in the here and now and endure being taught, rebuked, corrected and trained up till they reach the full stature of Christ."

What is it, exactly, that they believe in?

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,2 Tim.3:16

That is why you and I both support our positions with Scripture. And if my understanding can be revealed divergent from Scripture, then I shall have to change what I've understood.

Can you show such divergence from Scripture with what I've said?

Sawdust, a "Christian" who does not realize the dynamics of salvation, isn't really saved, is he?

What does the scripture say Ben. Whosoever believes? or whosoever understands? One doesn't have to understand all the mechanics of salvation in order to be saved. Stone the crows, if that were the case none of us would be saved.

Yet James says: "You believe in one God, you do well; but even demons believe, and shudder." (2:19) Seems that there is a certain KIND of belief that is saved.

What kind?

If Christ is in someone, how can he or she NOT "grow to maturity in Christ"? Impossible.

Ho ho ho. What's this? You turning all Calvinist on me Ben? You debate black and blue with the Calvinists on the role of volition in receiving life but now when it comes to reaching maturity in that life you want to negate the role of volition?

Not at all; just questioning what KIND of belief someone has.

He who believes and is saved, receives Christ indwelling in his/her person. How could such a person NOT grow?

I reject the idea of someone "truly believing, but NOT growing"; clearly such a person is NOT being led by Christ and the Spirit --- that cannot be "true belief".

It is very possible not to grow up "in Christ". Those who refuse the ongoing truths of category 3 do not reach maturity. They will enter heaven as spiritual babies, children or teenagers.

You're asserting a "middle-of-the-road" position; but "Christian", is like "pregnant" --- a person IS pregnant, or is NOT --- there is no "partially".

So too "Christian" --- either Christ INDWELLS a person, or He does NOT (2Cor13:5!). If "so", then "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion". If "not", then they do not grow. (Philip1:6)

That's the message of Heb5:11-6:8, "Grow, or not-be-saved".

I agree. And I like the analogy too. If you have the Son, you have life. Positional truth, cannot be altered. It is a gift from God. You can never be condemned for sin again and hence, cannot die (spiritually) and if you are alive at the time of the resurrection you will never even taste physical death.

Excellent; we agree that one is "saved", meaning "having Christ", or "not".

Even if one is unfaithful and clings to false doctrine beyond the faith of first importance (the Gospel), Christ remains faithful. He never abandons us.

Paul said "by grace through faith have you been saved"; no matter how it's sliced, you're asserting "salvation apart from faith".

If we never come to agreement, I pray that you will be convinced that "faithlessly-saved" cannot be true.

Using your pregnancy analogy. It begins with copulation. Does one have to keep on copulating to remain pregnant? No. But if they want to have a nice healthy baby (as much as they can be responsible at least), then they need to follow certain procedures. As a mother, I can guarantee you once you are pregnant, you will have a baby ... one way or the other. In the same way ... if you have the Son? You will have life, one way or the other.

Sawdust --- something occurs to me; if a woman does not watch nutrition or engage in prenatal care, sometimes the baby dies.

Just as a mother must follow a certain path for a healthy baby, the Lord has set out a certain path so we might grow up into the fullness of the life He has given us. Failure to fulfill the plan does not result in permanent loss of the life God has given, (it is a gift) but it will result in a very stunted "lifeform".

Only if there is such a thing as "faithlessly-saved".

If you believe in Christ you have the Father's genes (so to speak). It is how we can be recognised. Some of our family members are easily recognisable, others not so's you would even know. But the Lord is never deceived. He knows who belongs to Him and He is not about to give eternal life to one who could not or would not appreciate it. He isn't that wasteful or that stupid.

It all begins with "belief", Sawdust;

and "belief" can become deceived.

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

In union? No doubt, but not with/in/of, Christ. You are delusional to believe that. The Catholic church has too much to account for that has been at odds with Him for 2000 yrs.

We are also in union, which most of the rest of Christianity desires rather than Unity which is what the Body of Christ possesses. I don't worry about the Catholic Church. They have been officially at odds for about 1000 years. They are in schism from the Body of Christ.

 

[Ormly]

Ben johnsonQuote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Paul was still speaking to saved, born again, folk. Proceed from that absloute.​

That's correct --- only the saved, can fall. We are to persevere IN salvation.​

Many do before they are ever born again. Our disagreements will stem from my position of that. I don’t assume the saved to be born again though it can happen and has, at the same time..​

Quote:
No, thats wrong. Being saved does NOT assume anything further. One learns Joint-heir-ship. One learns son-ship; Throne-ship. One can be saved and not become: " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12 (KJV) ​

This is good --- to sufficiently address "forfeitability", we must first discuss what salvation is.​

Indeed and what it means when we say "we are saved to be saved".​

You are asserting "salvation", that then grows into "sonship".

No. I am asserting one must be born again to begin his growth into son-ship. Jn3:3 and 5. It is Christ choosing you and not you simply accepting Him. It is one who is born again by seeing/finding the treasure in the field; Pearl of Great price. Have you ever tried to explain what that is?​

What is that salvation, Ormly? What happens so a person when he/she is SAVED, before becoming "heirs"?

​

A better question might be what happens to the one who saved that he/she becomes born again. I don’t know. What I do know is the God knows and decides and that based upon what He determines to be hungering and thirsting after Him. We are not privy to that.

Quote:
Which is the way of the cross; dying to "Self" and living unto the Father, while still in this body of flesh. ​

It's much more than that. We don't "die to self", to BE saved, we "die to self" because we are united with Christ. Jesus --- a conscious, sentient Being --- indwells the believer, from the moment of belief. It is a communion between two conscious entities --- Creator, and creature.​

We die to “Self” and we will want to do so when we begin to understand the more complete message of the gospel; that of realizing God wants sons fashioned in His likeness; to begin to understand that "eye hasn't seeen nor ear heard what God has prepared for them that love Him"., demonstrated and patterned after the man Jesus. Dying to "Self" means doing only what "I see my Father doing"; a passion to be a Father pleaser.​

That's the issue; dying is a conscious choice, because it means choosing to abide in Him.

​

It does indeed require conscience choosing rewarded by His choosing us however, you need to explain the term easily expressed and so little understood, "abide".​

Because Jesus cannot abide in anyone who does not believe and abide in Him, John15:4 can only read "Abide in Me, and I will abide in you."

​

Understood. Spoken to His disciples as instruction/exhortation before the cross.​

Quote:
In the what Paul is saying has more to do with the reason why we are saved and falling short is a loss of the purposed intention we were born again to enter into. Though saved, we miss it. ​

We must get back to the foundation, the definition of "saved".​

I think I did but you let me know.​

Does one who is saved, "believe"?

​

Sure, initially and hopefully will remain to move on in Christ. Check out the parable of the sower.​

What is the extent of that "belief"?

​

Great question I can’t answer. We can only observe the results of such confessions.​

Does he believe Jesus is God?

​

Sure, but after a while could be easily persuaded Jesus isn't the only way. Why would he allow himself such a thought? Simple He wants to preserve his life as he knows it. ​

Does he believe that an intimate communion is necessary?

​

Probably not. Know any churches that preach unconditional intimacy with Christ? I do. So why should the new believer be expected to know that he now could become what the Father intends for him in the sense we are discussing? He already is told there is nothing more to do aside from what everyone else is doing and if he makes the attempt it’s looked upon as a works thing or something coming from a holier than thou disposition. Belleve in Christ and hang on til you die. .​

Does he spend time with God, praying to the Father and Son and Spirit?

​

Probably not if he still deems his life top priority. Know anybody like that? I do. “I want Christ but I want my secular life as well”.​

Does he walk in sin?

​

Probably, believing Jesus identifies with his weakness and all is forgiven. Know anyone like that? I do.​

How is "saved", defined? What is the difference between "saved-but-not-yet-sons", and "saved-sons"?

​

Ben, I don’t believe the nominally saved have the Spirit of Christ. If they did they would be born again, possessing the very Nature of God that the Man Jesus possessed. They will be strivers and overcomers that they might enter into the kingdom of God where one is groomed for son-ship. Do I believe they are children of God? Yes and obviously enabled to further choose for them the things of God, that they be chosen, that they might begin to see His glory and then begin to choose for Him. In this we can observe the born again experience come to fruition in that one’s life. (Jn 17)​

Quote:
You keep on the saved "drum-beat" believing heaven is the goal and is the complete message of the gospel. ​

Not at all. Heaven is the destiny for the saved. What does "saved", mean?​

Ultimately, it means Joint-Heir-ship with Christ.The intention of God for His children; the reason for His enabling them to become. That is the goal to be accomplished this side of Glory. We were saved for that reason alone.​

Quote:
It is not and heaven should no longer be the goal for the one saved. Where else can Christian go when he dies? We are saved to become and the training is for now; the end of God's will for your life. ​

What is "The Greatest Commandment"?​

Does that commandment have anything to do with "salvation"?​

Absolutely and to the degree I have tried to explain. I hope I have somewhat suceeded.​

​

 

[Ben johnson]

That's correct --- only the saved, can fall. We are to persevere IN salvation.

Many do before they are ever born again. Our disagreements will stem from my position of that. I don’t assume the saved to be born again though it can happen and has, at the same time..

What's different between "saved", and "born again"?

Indeed and what it means when we say "we are saved to be saved".

What chapter and verse?

No. I am asserting one must be born again to begin his growth into son-ship. Jn3:3 and 5. It is Christ choosing you and not you simply accepting Him. It is one who is born again by seeing/finding the treasure in the field; Pearl of Great price. Have you ever tried to explain what that is?

What do you mean "Christ choosing us, rather than us accepting Him?" What person does Christ ever not choose?

A better question might be what happens to the one who saved that he/she becomes born again. I don’t know. What I do know is the God knows and decides and that based upon what He determines to be hungering and thirsting after Him. We are not privy to that.

Actually, Scripture does tell us what salvation is.

We die to “Self” and we will want to do so when we begin to understand the more complete message of the gospel; that of realizing God wants sons fashioned in His likeness; to begin to understand that "eye hasn't seen nor ear heard what God has prepared for them that love Him", demonstrated and patterned after the man Jesus. Dying to "Self" means doing only what "I see my Father doing"; a passion to be a Father pleaser.

Have you studied the concept of "being indwelt"?

It does indeed require conscious choosing rewarded by His choosing us however, you need to explain the term easily expressed and so little understood, "abide".

It connects directly back to "being indwelt".

John15:4 can only read "Abide in Me, and I will abide in you."

Understood. Spoken to His disciples as instruction/exhortation before the cross.

In a moment, let's discuss what "abide in Him", means...

Sure, initially and hopefully will remain to move on in Christ. Check out the parable of the sower.

There are four groups there; one that was never actually planted, one that is planted and GROWS, but (from temptation/affliction/persecution) FALLS. The third is planted, grows, but becuase of worries/riches/pleasures don't bear fruit; the fourth is planted and grows, and excercises diligence and perseverance to bear fruit.

Only one of those groups, is saved in the end. This connects to Heb6:7-8, that those who do NOT bear fruit are as the fruitless field that is cursed and burned.

Great question I can’t answer. We can only observe the results of such confessions.

There is an answer, "Ormly"; Scripture tells us.

Sure, but after a while could be easily persuaded Jesus isn't the only way. Why would he allow himself such a thought? Simple He wants to preserve his life as he knows it.

Not necessarily; the world is full of deceptions (all flowing from satan), and all deception has as its goal to move us away from Christ.

Probably not. Know any churches that preach unconditional intimacy with Christ? I do. So why should the new believer be expected to know that he now could become what the Father intends for him in the sense we are discussing? He already is told there is nothing more to do aside from what everyone else is doing and if he makes the attempt it’s looked upon as a works thing or something coming from a holier than thou disposition. Believe in Christ and hang on 'til you die. .

This discounts the influence that CHRIST has on those who SEEK Him.

Jesus is real; He laughs, cries, thinks and feels. He deals with those who really seek Him.

(That's why many from eras and areas who have never HEARD of Jesus, will still enter Heaven; because they FOUND Him, inasmuch as they could understand Him. Rom2:14-16)

Probably not if he still deems his life top priority. Know anybody like that? I do. “I want Christ but I want my secular life as well”.

Then what does he believe in?

If someone BELIEVES in Christ, but says to himself "I still want my secular (sinful) life as well", does he really believe in Christ, or does he merely believe Jesus EXISTS? That's why defining "belief", is important.

Probably, believing Jesus identifies with his weakness and all is forgiven. Know anyone like that? I do.

So --- we're defining a "saved" person, who is not "born again" --- he walks in sin but is forgiven.

That's a flat contradiction, Ormly. In 1Jn3 anyone who practices sin, does not know God --- but is of the devil. This is the deliniation between those who belong to God, and those who belong to the devil. John's words are very clear.

And "walking in sin", is the definition of "unrepentant". Jesus said, "Unless you REPENT, you will perish." Lk13:3

Ben, I don’t believe the nominally saved have the Spirit of Christ. If they did they would be born again, possessing the very Nature of God that the Man Jesus possessed.

Exactly. Let's discuss what kind of BELIEF it is, that is SAVED, but refuses to receive the Spirit. What do they believe in?

They will be strivers and overcomers that they might enter into the kingdom of God where one is groomed for son-ship. Do I believe they are children of God? Yes and obviously enabled to further choose for them the things of God, that they be chosen, that they might begin to see His glory and then begin to choose for Him.

There are many who think they are saved, but are not --- sadly, most people in church fit this category.

In Matt7:21-23 are those who prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons and did mighty works --- but Jesus never KNEW them. So too in Rev3:14-22; there are those who are poor blind miserable wretched and naked, but don't know it. How could they not know any of those? But they don't. Is any one of them saved? No.

In this we can observe the born again experience come to fruition in that one’s life. (Jn 17)

Let's look at John17. I bet you and I both define "saved", as "having eternal life". In verse 3, Jesus says: "Eternal life is knowing YOU, and knowing the One You sent (Me Jesus)."

Knowing God and Jesus. Can anyone know God, but not know Him? This is the "saved/not-born-again" position you're proposing.

The concept of RECEIVING Christ, is identical to "believing". That's the difference between "believing", and "saved". In James2:19, a kind of belief that produces no good works, is compared to demons believing; it's not saved.

Throughout Scripture believing and receiving Jesus is the essence of salvation. Jesus truly indwells the believer. "Christ in you". Likewise, the Spirit indwells the believer.

In 1Jn5, "He who HAS the Son, has eternal life" --- this is "saved", and it declares "has the Son". There is no "having-the-Son", without being indwelt by Him.

That's what "abide" means. 1Jn (gosh, so many of our quotes are coming from that letter!) 4:16 says "God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." This is what "indwelt" means. It's a perfect mirror to John15:4.

It's what "KNOWING God AND the Son", means; intimate knowing.

And it's why Jesus said in Matt7:23, "I never knew them."

You speak of "nominally-saved who do not have Christ" --- but we just read 1Jn5:11-13, which says "He who has NOT the Son of God has not eternal life". Are they "saved"? No.

There is no kind of "belief", that does not receive Christ bodily, and the Spirit. Such a position that TRIES to accomplish that but WITHOUT the "indwelling", instead walks in sin. Plenty of Scriptures clearly state that such a person, will perish. 1Cor6:9-11, Gal5:19-21, Eph5:5-6, and 1Jn3:5-10.

Look at 1Jn1; he speaks of FELLOWSHIP with the Father, and with Jesus (3); is there any kind of "saved" apart from fellowship? No. Then is a contrast between "walking in the light", and "walking in darkness"; the first is fellowship with/in Christ, the second is walking in sin. Vs6-7.

Ultimately, it means Joint-Heir-ship with Christ. The intention of God for His children; the reason for His enabling them to become. That is the goal to be accomplished this side of Glory. We were saved for that reason alone.

But what kind of "belief" is it that doesn't receive Christ's presence, bodily?

"I have been cruficied with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but CHRIST lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Gal2:20 Is that attitude optional?

It's not.

It is not and heaven should no longer be the goal for the one saved. Where else can Christian go when he dies? We are saved to become and the training is for now; the end of God's will for your life.

What is "The Greatest Commandment"?

Does that commandment have anything to do with "salvation"?

Absolutely and to the degree I have tried to explain. I hope I have somewhat suceeded.

The "greatest commandment", is "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength".

THAT is the kind of belief that is "saved". A "belief" that is not fully indwelt, is not dead-to-sin and alive-to-Christ, is not loving Him with all that we are.

Does this make sense? You recognize that you don't know what "saved belief" is; let's look at Romans 6; Paul labors to say "we are EITHER slaves to sin, OR slaves to righteousness and God". There is no third choice.

Enslaved to God, through love, means fully committed to Him; no room for "I want Christ but I want my secular life as well". He who doesn't want Jesus COMPLETELY, does not love Jesus with all his might.

When we are saved, we are justified, and sanctified, and washed (1Cor6:11); "washed" is "regeneration" ---- and regeneration is by the INDWELLING Spirit. That's an intimate indwelling, FELLOWSHIP. It's not casual, cannot be casual.

He who is not regenerated, dwells in sin, and not in Christ. This is why there is no such thing as "saved" that exists separate from "born again". The Spirit regenerates us, and we are new.

"If anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away (is passing), behold all has become new." 2Cor5:17

All is new; the old has died. Not gone, but died. Thus --- we WALK in Christ, and the old sinful man stays dead. The reality of Scripture plainly asserts that we can WALK in sin, and the old sinful man LIVES and we STUMBLE.

After each sin, we have the exact same choice --- to sin AGAIN, or to throw ourselves in shame at His feet begging for His mercy and forgiveness, and His righteousness that we may avoid sinning. The "forfeitability of salvation" has nothing to do with His faithfulness, for His faithfulness is perfect; it has nothing do with our committing sins --- it has EVERYTHING to do with "again".

It is not a SIN that damages our fellowship-salvation, it is the sin and sin AGAIN that does. For "again", means we have turned away from Him.

That's why this topic is so terribly important to me; the essence of salvation is Him IN us, an indwelt fellowship of love. HE is our strength, HE is our power. HE is our RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Yet, He is all of those things to and for us, through our faith.

"The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith --- the just shall live BY faith." Rom1:17


And it's the kind of faith that walks in Him, and He in us.

 

[Ben johnson]

Look at 1Jn1; he speaks of FELLOWSHIP with the Father, and with Jesus (3); is there any kind of "saved" apart from fellowship? No. Then is a contrast between "walking in the light", and "walking in darkness"; the first is fellowship with/in Christ, the second is walking in sin. Vs6-7.

The moment Jesus died, the veil tore (Mk15:39).

Why? It's important.

Behind the veil, was the very presence of Almighty God. God cannot stand sin; so we were forbidden to enter.

The moment Jesus died, He became our high priest, that enters behind the veil for us (Heb6:19-20).

Washed thoroughly by His sin, we are cleansed white as snow. And we are invited behind the veil.

God delights in our company --- He ENJOYS us!!!

"You shall LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul, and all your strength."

"Our FELLOWSHIP, is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ."

"God is love; he who abides in love, abides in God, and God abides in him."

That's the essence; the very core of our being.

Him.

He is our rock and our foundation. He is our self-esteem. He is our love.

Behind the veil. In restored fellowship that was broken by Adam.

You see, Ormly, and everyone else reading this, eternity has already begun.

Heaven is in our hearts, because HE is in our hearts. When He returns, we will be with Him physically; but He is already with us, and in our spirits we are already with Him.

We are indwelt. He walks with us, dwells in us, tabernacles with us.

We know Him, and He knows us.

This is "salvation"; it is "born again", it is "eternity".

"Whoever sins, is a SLAVE to sin; so whom the Son sets free, is free indeed." Jn8:34-36 This is the message of Rom6, that we are slaves either to sin, OR we belong to God.

We are free in Him, for by Him we are free from sin. It is our striving to not sin; yet that is only possible by His strength in us. We cannot resist sin; but we can fill our hearts and souls with Him, and He becomes our strength against sin.

"The Lord is my strength, and my song --- and has become my salvation." Psalm118:14

The way of the Cross is simple; but so few understand it. Let our prayer be that something we have said, will reach someone's heart --- that His reality will burst forth upon their soul as the sun explodes from the clouds after a spring storm.

"Lord, change us --- into whatever we need to be, to teach them of You."

 

[GenemZ]

The moment Jesus died, the veil tore (Mk15:39).

Why? It's important.

Behind the veil, was the very presence of Almighty God. God cannot stand sin; so we were forbidden to enter.

Ben? On the Cross? What penalty did Jesus bear on our behalf? Not only for us who believe. But for the whole world.


From what you keep telling us? I really think you do not know.



.

 

[Ormly]

Quote: Ben
Originally Posted by Ormly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
That's correct --- only the saved, can fall. We are to persevere IN salvation.

Many do before they are ever born again. Our disagreements will stem from my position of that. I don’t assume the saved to be born again though it can happen and has, at the same time..

What's different between "saved", and "born again"?

Me choosing Him, Him choosing me.

I repeat, "Many are called [and respond] but few are chosen", per your scripture selection from Matt. 22. I believe you are missing something when you read it.

 

[sawdust]

Hi, "Sawdust".
So you perceive a position of "saved but not-persevering, not abiding in the teachings". With respect, exactly what would salvation be to such a person?

Usually miserable because they come under constant discipline.

"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." 1Tim4:1

What does "fall away from the faith" mean? Is that speaking of someone who was "never really IN the faith"? Or is there a "fallen-from-faith (turning instead to demonic doctrines)" that's still saved?

Second verse.

Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Tim.4:2

Note: "teachings" - plural.

Third verse gives an example regarding two of those teachings. There are as many false teachings as there are sound teachings.

So, what does it mean to "fall away from the faith"? It means having started with the truth (ie the Gospel), they go on to take in other truths that are not of God but are in fact lies.

Unbelievers are also redeemed?
Those who don't belong to Christ; didn't you just say they are "redeemed"?

No. I never said that. I said all men are raised from the dead. Have you not read?

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. Jn.5:28&29

Please explain to me how overcoming sin does not require our participation. What of James1:14-16? What of 1Cor10:12-13? What of Rom6 (beginning with verse 1)?

This most probably needs some qualification. You do not directly participate in overcoming your sin. In other words, you do not say, "I will not sin." If you do, you will fail. Maybe not at first, but eventually you will, it is guaranteed. This is what Paul is getting at in Romans 7. He wills to do good (not sin), but he can't succeed. The sin nature that is at work in our flesh is stronger than the strongest human will.

So how do we overcome sin? Two things must be done.
1. Sin must be judged and and put to death. Christ did this for us on the Cross. He took the judgment, He took the penalty on His own shoulders and His alone. We did not do it, He did.

Therefore, as Paul says, "we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin." Rom.6:11.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

The Lord counts you the sinner as being dead. In the same way you are to see yourself as dead. You don't will yourself dead to sin, you reckon yourself dead to it because you have been baptised into Christ's death. It is what the Lord has done to you, not what you can do for yourself.

The second thing that needs to happen, and this is where we directly participate, is learning the word of truth.

I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you. Psalm 119:11

This is the area we apply our volition to. It is taking the truth of God's word into our soul; I will learn it, I willl believe it, I will stand upon it.

The first is a given, but the second we actively pursue and our victory over sin is the automatic outcome of resting in the truth of God's word in the filling of the Spirit.

Let's discuss what kind of a "saved-believer" it is, who has not God's approval. What does such a person believe, Sawdust? How is he different from an "approved believer"?
Hmmm; the context speaks of those debating whether women should cover their heads; and speaks of one being hungry and another being DRUNK. Is it possible that "approved", means "saved"?

The difference is the approved believer is commended and the unapproved is rebuked (told they are wrong). Still in 1 Cor.11, see verses 17 & 22.

Let's discuss the verses I just posted:

2Cor13:5 "Examine yourselves, test yourselves, to see if you are in Christ. Do you not realize that Christ is in you, unless you FAIL THE TEST?"
Is "failing-the-test" possible, in Paul's words? If we fail, are we still "saved"?

I thought we had already established you had to believe Christ as Saviour to be in Christ. If Christ is not in you then you are not in Christ. You fail the test.

2Pet1:5-10 "Supply in your faith moral excellence, self control, godliness, kindness, brotherly love; he who LACKS these qualities is blind, short-sighted, FORGOTTEN former purification from sins. THEREFORE be all the more diligent to make certain of your calling and election; as long as you PRACTICE these things you will not stumble/BECOME-WRETCHED. In THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE ...provided to you."
Was the man in verse 9 ever "saved" (formerly purified)? Is he held up as an example of NON-diligence? Why are we required to "be diligent", and why is the consequence clearly stated to be "so that Heaven's gates BE provided"?

It doesn't say "so that heaven's gates will be provided", it qualifies the entrance into the Kingdom. We are to be dilligent so our entry is rich and not poor. Some will enter with little faith, some will enter with much faith. We are rewarded according to the measure of our faith. Our faith is our work. Faith is the truth alive and at work in our soul (thinking) in which we rest.

1Tim4:16 We've already discussed this; you perceive it as "being saved from bad perception to others"; so I look forward to your comments on verse 1...

I have no idea what you are talking about which most probably means you never really understood what I said in the first place.

2Jn1:7-9 (Many deceivers have come into the world.) "WATCH yourselves, that you not lose what was wrought; anyone who GOES TOO FAR and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God. He who abides, has the Father and the Son."
What is the goal of the "deceivers"? This is written to believers; what was it that is "wrought"? Salvation, or mere crowns? If "crowns only", how is it that the next verse asserts "those who go too far and do not abide, have not God"? Look at two understandings:

The fact that it was the believers who had done the work then it couldn't be talking about salvation from death which, is the result of sin because Christ did that work. It can only be talking about growing in the knowledge of truth by means of God's grace. As that can only occur while in the filling of the Spirit, if a person runs ahead (ie outside) of the truth then the Father and Son, who are never outside the truth, would not be participating in their race. They would need to get back on track to enjoy the fellowship of the Father and the Son that awaits them.

And if one is given through faith, what happens if he ceases to believe?

And who says he does? You? Me? If someone says "I believe Jesus is Saviour" are you going to call them a liar if they don't move on in their walk as you think they should? Can we see into their heart to see if it's a dishonest claim or a self-deception based on ignorance? I leave such things up to the Lord. My job is to be responsible for what I believe and to grow in God's truth.

(have to put the rest in a second post)

 

[sawdust]

To Ben,

Look at the wording of Col2:6-8; deceivers have as their goal to deceive us away from belief in Christ. Is there any way to deny that fact, in these words?

And as I have explained before belief in Christ is more than just the Gospel. The Gospel is the power unto salvation. Deceivers love nothing more than to lead away those who have begun a good race into false doctrine so that they doubt their salvation and hence doubt the word of the Lord and fail to mature in faith.

"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, firmly rooted and being built up in Him and established in your faith. SEE that no one takes you CAPTIVE through philosophy and empty deception, according to worldly principles and men's dradictions, rather than ACCORDING TO CHRIST."

It really begins to appear that "belief", can be deceived to "unbelief", doesn't it?
So there must be only one of two possibilities:

1. We can never come to unbelief
2. We can be "faithlessly-saved".

To which do you hold?

Neither, because you presume to start from the wrong end. A person doesn't come to unbelief. Unbelief is all he has until the truth is revealed to him that he might believe. Learning to take in the truth through faith eliminates unbelief. To not abide and grow in the truth exposes the unbelief that is already present.

Let's see; those who are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection (before the 1000 years), will reign with Christ. Do you perceive there will be many Christians resurrected in the SECOND one?

I perceive there will be no Christians in the second resurrection. Although I dare say there will be those who claimed to be yet were not.

Please explain to me what the concept of "believer" means to you, if it allows someone "not placing the Word first in the here and now and endure being taught, rebuked, corrected and trained up till they reach the full stature of Christ."

I don't see believers as "concepts" but as spiritually alive creatures. (this is opposed to unbelievers who are spiritually dead creatures) Being spiritually alive gives one the capacity to know God. It does not, however, guarantee one will know much.

What is it, exactly, that they believe in?

That Jesus Christ is Saviour. When they believe that truth, they are born again, baptised in the Spirit, baptised into Christ, transferred into the Kingdom of God, made citizens of heaven and the list goes on. As these things are all a gift from God and are kept safe by His word, they cannot be lost. Now, having received all those things (through faith), we have a responsibility to grow up by continuing to grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. (we already know He is Saviour but there is much more to learn)

Can you show such divergence from Scripture with what I've said?

Well, I've been trying.

Yet James says: "You believe in one God, you do well; but even demons believe, and shudder." (2:19) Seems that there is a certain KIND of belief that is saved.

Actually, the scripture doesn't say that. It says:

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. Jam.2:19

There is no believing "in" God. This verse speaks to the uniqueness of God. There is no-one like Him, as Isaiah reflects. Did Lucifer believe in that as truth? Nope, which is why he sought to replace God. If Lucifer had believed "in" God as being unique, ie: counted it to be true, he would never have gone in for his "replacement theology". (no pun intended for those who hold to such theology)

He who believes and is saved, receives Christ indwelling in his/her person. How could such a person NOT grow?

Negative volition.

I reject the idea of someone "truly believing, but NOT growing"; clearly such a person is NOT being led by Christ and the Spirit --- that cannot be "true belief". You're asserting a "middle-of-the-road" position; but "Christian", is like "pregnant" --- a person IS pregnant, or is NOT --- there is no "partially".

I understand you do but that doesn't mean you are correct. However you are correct in that they are not being led of the Spirit.

No, I'm not asserting a middle-of-the-road. I agree with you in that you are either a believer and are saved or you are an unbeliever and are not saved.

So too "Christian" --- either Christ INDWELLS a person, or He does NOT (2Cor13:5!). If "so", then "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion". If "not", then they do not grow. (Philip1:6)

Yes He will. That completion will be revealed in the resurrection. All believers will have a new body, one with no sin nature, because that is what Christ died for, ie sin. Every believer has at least this much faith, it is what makes them a believer. If they don't believe Christ died for their sin then they are not a believer and are not in the first resurrection.

Then the rest of the measure of our faith (which is truth received and abided in) is evaluated and we are rewarded accordingly.

That's the message of Heb5:11-6:8, "Grow, or not-be-saved".

No, the message is grow or face Christ at the evaluation seat with no spiritual production of any consequence. Look at the analogy in verses 7&8.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Heb.6:7&8

The "land" is the believer. The "crop" is his/her spiritual production (ie faith). The "rain that falls often" is the Lord's grace given in truth. The land that soaks in the rain (lives by the truth) produces a good crop (faith) which results in blessing (a life filled with love, joy, peace etc.). The land that rejects the rain when it falls upon it (denys the truth when it is presented to them) produces weeds (unbelief) which results in works of the flesh. It is the produce that is burned up not the land itself. The land (believer) remains. Their only reward is the new spiritual body.

Fits in with 1 Cor.3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The land (he himself) is saved. The crop (the man's work) is burned up.

Excellent; we agree that one is "saved", meaning "having Christ", or "not". Paul said "by grace through faith have you been saved"; no matter how it's sliced, you're asserting "salvation apart from faith".

No I'm not. I'm recognising that faith comes in measure.

How much faith does it take to be saved? A "tick" more than no faith at all. How much faith does it take to reach maturity in Christ? A whole lot more.

If we never come to agreement, I pray that you will be convinced that "faithlessly-saved" cannot be true.

That would be a waste of good prayer time. I don't believe one can be saved without faith.

Sawdust --- something occurs to me; if a woman does not watch nutrition or engage in prenatal care, sometimes the baby dies.

True, but that would take the analogy out of context. The context was growth, not whether one is spiritually alive or dead. You used it that way and I agreed. But I used the analogy in relation to already having life and what is needed to grow up healthy instead of spindly.

Only if there is such a thing as "faithlessly-saved". It all begins with "belief", Sawdust;

No, it all begins with grace. Grace that is received through faith.

peace

 

[Ormly]

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Indeed and what it means when we say "we are saved to be saved".

What chapter and verse?

The Bible, cover to cover.

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No. I am asserting one must be born again to begin his growth into son-ship. Jn3:3 and 5. It is Christ choosing you and not you simply accepting Him. It is one who is born again by seeing/finding the treasure in the field; Pearl of Great price. Have you ever tried to explain what that is?

What do you mean "Christ choosing us, rather than us accepting Him?" What person does Christ ever not choose?

Come away from the redemption issue. Move on to learn more about Jesus and the more of why He went to the cross.

The one who doesn’t choose Him after receiving Him to continue in the grooming process; the one who can’t overcome his “Self” that he might learn Christ unto his own son-ship. Before you respond: Do you believe all will receive the same reward in that day? Why not? What will it depend upon? Why should it depend upon anything if all are born again?

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A better question might be what happens to the one who saved that he/she becomes born again. I don’t know. What I do know is the God knows and decides and that based upon what He determines to be hungering and thirsting after Him. We are not privy to that.

Actually, Scripture does tell us what salvation is.

I know all about that and I am sure your telling of the account is no different than what folk are generally given to believe, which is incomplete. I am sure you will digress to that level further into this.

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We die to “Self” and we will want to do so when we begin to understand the more complete message of the gospel; that of realizing God wants sons fashioned in His likeness; to begin to understand that "eye hasn't seen nor ear heard what God has prepared for them that love Him", demonstrated and patterned after the man Jesus. Dying to "Self" means doing only what "I see my Father doing"; a passion to be a Father pleaser.

Have you studied the concept of "being indwelt"?

Concept??

Indeed, I have. Have you studied the theology of the cross, allowing yourself to go beyond the issue of redemption? I don't think so. You don't read like you have.

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It does indeed require conscious choosing rewarded by His choosing us however, you need to explain the term easily expressed and so little understood, "abide".

It connects directly back to "being indwelt".

More than that because what is indwelt is only His Nature given that we might learn the Character of the Father. One an imputation whiles the other, an impartation received when we [learn to] “abide”.


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Originally Posted by Ben
John15:4 can only read "Abide in Me, and I will abide in you."

Understood. Spoken to His disciples as instruction/exhortation before the cross.

In a moment, let's discuss what "abide in Him", means...

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Sure, initially and hopefully will remain to move on in Christ. Check out the parable of the sower.[/quote]

There are four groups there; one that was never actually planted, one that is planted and GROWS, but (from temptation/affliction/persecution) FALLS. The third is planted, grows, but becuase of worries/riches/pleasures don't bear fruit; the fourth is planted and grows, and excercises diligence and perseverance to bear fruit.

So we can say basically, 3 outta 4 don’t make the cut for “Self” reasons.. Ah, how the need for Pentecost becomes evident.

Only one of those groups, is saved in the end. This connects to Heb6:7-8, that those who do NOT bear fruit are as the fruitless field that is cursed and burned.

Not exactly does it connect to Hebs 6:7,8. The difficulty I see in your thinking is you believe the one in whom the cares of life jump up and bite him implies he loses his salvation while I would say it possibly could be but that dependent upon where he is In his “becoming” process. If he is far along in the process and falls away, Hebs 6 might be the case for him. We can’t judge that.

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Great question I can’t answer. We can only observe the results of such confessions.

There is an answer, "Ormly"; Scripture tells us.

Then speak of it. Just don’t proof text me, ok?

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Sure, but after a while could be easily persuaded Jesus isn't the only way. Why would he allow himself such a thought? Simple He wants to preserve his life as he knows it.

Not necessarily; the world is full of deceptions (all flowing from satan), and all deception has as its goal to move us away from Christ.

Satan? Why blame him when “Self” is such as he is?

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Probably not. Know any churches that preach unconditional intimacy with Christ? I do. So why should the new believer be expected to know that he now could become what the Father intends for him in the sense we are discussing? He already is told there is nothing more to do aside from what everyone else is doing and if he makes the attempt it’s looked upon as a works thing or something coming from a holier than thou disposition. Believe in Christ and hang on 'til you die. .

This discounts the influence that CHRIST has on those who SEEK Him.

Jesus is real; He laughs, cries, thinks and feels. He deals with those who really seek Him.

That is the caveat, isn’t it? . . . Seeking Him after being saved.

(That's why many from eras and areas who have never HEARD of Jesus, will still enter Heaven; because they FOUND Him, inasmuch as they could understand Him. Rom2:14-16)

I believe that also however, I wouldn’t use the word “found” but rather recognize and live with the associated convictions brought about by whatever limited knowledge that one possesses. Man is without excuse because that “limited” knowledge is given to all..

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Probably not if he still deems his life top priority. Know anybody like that? I do. “I want Christ but I want my secular life as well”.

Then what does he believe in?

Oh, he believes in Christ, alright. He just believes he can have Him on his own terms.

If someone BELIEVES in Christ, but says to himself "I still want my secular (sinful) life as well", does he really believe in Christ, or does he merely believe Jesus EXISTS? That's why defining "belief", is important.

I didn’t say sinful. He may one who lives a righteous life, but ultimately only “Self” righteousness is seen by God. I know a lot of deacons like that. I am sure you do also. You just don't know how to address that issue lest you offend, being unsure of yourself. That is a common error..

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Probably, believing Jesus identifies with his weakness and all is forgiven. Know anyone like that? I do.

So --- we're defining a "saved" person, who is not "born again" --- he walks in sin but is forgiven.

Ah, what ignorance will do whether willful or otherwise. God have mercy of our teachers.

That's a flat contradiction, Ormly. In 1Jn3 anyone who practices sin, does not know God --- but is of the devil. This is the deliniation between those who belong to God, and those who belong to the devil. John's words are very clear.

Think intimacy, Ben. If you are not practicing intimacy; seeking it, what are you about and why? “Why” being the important issue here.

And "walking in sin", is the definition of "unrepentant". Jesus said, "Unless you REPENT, you will perish." Lk13:3

You must mean, “willful” walking in sin is the definition of unrepentant, don’t you?

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Ben, I don’t believe the nominally saved have the Spirit of Christ. If they did they would be born again, possessing the very Nature of God that the Man Jesus possessed.

Continued