Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ormly]

More on Ben:

Exactly. Let's discuss what kind of BELIEF it is, that is SAVED, but refuses to receive the Spirit. What do they believe in?

That isn’t what I said, Ben. That is not what my remark infers. Refusing to accept the spirit isn’t something I am alluding to. I am saying it isn’t given. Going back to our previous agreement about those saved who never hear of Christ, Paul says this: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. . . . . . .
Those who live by their convictions devoid of the knowledge of Christ, technically speaking, are not living by the flesh. In that regard they are God pleasers unto justification, per Rom. 5:1.
. . . . . But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:7-9 (KJV)
Paul is addressing folk who are seeking to know the Father after coming into the knowledge of Christ, His salvation, the born again and Pentecostal experiences, making the distinctions necessary between nominalism and intimacy.

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They will be strivers and overcomers that they might enter into the kingdom of God where one is groomed for son-ship. Do I believe they are children of God? Yes and obviously enabled to further choose for them the things of God, that they be chosen, that they might begin to see His glory and then begin to choose for Him.

There are many who think they are saved, but are not --- sadly, most people in church fit this category.

Amen. Who is too blame, Ben? Do we blame our 2000 yr old” orthodox” traditions? What is the error handed down to us that has corrupted the message of the cross?

In Matt7:21-23 are those who prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons and did mighty works --- but Jesus never KNEW them. So too in Rev3:14-22; there are those who are poor blind miserable wretched and naked, but don't know it. How could they not know any of those? But they don't. Is any one of them saved? No.

Your scripture references don't relate inasmuch as one does do in Jesus Name and not be saved, . . . even born again. Now you have a problem on your hands,

“Jesus never KNEW them”= Jesus was never intimate with them as husband and wife. They presumed on his Name, using it “illegally, usurping for themselves for the glory.

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In this we can observe the born again experience come to fruition in that one’s life. (Jn 17)

Let's look at John17. I bet you and I both define "saved", as "having eternal life". In verse 3, Jesus says: "Eternal life is knowing YOU, and knowing the One You sent (Me Jesus)."

Knowing God and Jesus. Can anyone know God, but not know Him? This is the "saved/not-born-again" position you're proposing

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Pretty serious, isn’t it? One certainly can know about God, can't one? Isn't that where theology falls short?

The concept of RECEIVING Christ, is identical to "believing". That's the difference between "believing", and "saved". In James2:19, a kind of belief that produces no good works, is compared to demons believing; it's not saved.

Then you must fathom that all out before saying someone isn't saved.

Believing is to be converted in the mind. Acting upon that belief is a result of desiring what you believe. Jesus is there for that one who takes action. His blood cleanses and makes whole, salvation happens. Now comes the part where one must count the cost if he is to continue per Jn 17. Know anyone who doesn’t continue, I do. Good church folk.

Throughout Scripture believing and receiving Jesus is the essence of salvation. Jesus truly indwells the believer. "Christ in you". Likewise, the Spirit indwells the believer.

Better you said Jesus indwells the true believer; one who trusts in a nd relies upon Christ per Gal. 2:20.

In 1Jn5, "He who HAS the Son, has eternal life" --- this is "saved", and it declares "has the Son". There is no "having-the-Son", without being indwelt by Him.

Absolutely however, it implies more than nominal salvation, more than receiving Christ as if one is doing Him a favor by accepting Him. Better it be that one dismiss the sinner’s prayer but cries out to God for his salvation, having a more complete knowledge of what His salvation is for and signifies. Finney, in his meetings called it a mourning bench and God would direct him to those ready to receive. Some were there on their knees for a week.

That's what "abide" means. 1Jn (gosh, so many of our quotes are coming from that letter!) 4:16 says "God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." This is what "indwelt" means. It's a perfect mirror to John15:4.

It's what "KNOWING God AND the Son", means; intimate knowing.

I understand. Now, how can it be appropriated for practical life without a personal Pentecost? However, that is another subject desparately in need of understanding.

And it's why Jesus said in Matt.7:23, "I never knew them."

However, initially they were saved, weren’t they? If you say no what do you base upon?

You speak of "nominally-saved who do not have Christ" --- but we just read 1Jn5:11-13, which says "He who has NOT the Son of God has not eternal life". Are they "saved"? No.

That's strong. I won’t make that call. We must define what it means to have eternal life as I believe John sees something more than we see and I believe it is more than we are given by our theologies for us to grasp. I know you are making a valiant effort, but cigar.

There is no kind of "belief", that does not receive Christ bodily, and the Spirit. Such a position that TRIES to accomplish that but WITHOUT the "indwelling", instead walks in sin. Plenty of Scriptures clearly state that such a person, will perish. 1Cor6:9-11, Gal5:19-21, Eph5:5-6, and 1Jn3:5-10.

Certainly he will perish from son-ship and Joint-heir-ship. . . . which is at the heart of all the Father is after by redeeming us, calling it "eternal life". All part of the theology of the cross, Ben.

Look at 1Jn1; he speaks of FELLOWSHIP with the Father, and with Jesus (3); is there any kind of "saved" apart from fellowship? No. Then is a contrast between "walking in the light", and "walking in darkness"; the first is fellowship with/in Christ, the second is walking in sin. Vs6-7.

All speaking of the born again for son-ship and Joint-heir-ship you don't wish to consider.

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Ultimately, it means Joint-Heir-ship with Christ. The intention of God for His children; the reason for His enabling them to become. That is the goal to be accomplished this side of Glory. We were saved for that reason alone.

But what kind of "belief" is it that doesn't receive Christ's presence, bodily?

Bodily?? What sidetrack is this that one must consider His physical body indwelling him for salvation?

One who compromises his salvation; to be something less than what God has purposed. Indeed, what kind of belief is that?

"I have been cruficied with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but CHRIST lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Gal2:20 Is that attitude optional?
It's not

To live by the very life of Christ? It wasn’t for Paul and when we see it as he did, it won’t be for us either. Seeing it is where we fall short. Note: in reading Gal 2.20, carefully make the comparison using the various translations with the KJV rendering. It will read differently, something less in most. Little preps can change much thinking.

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It is not and heaven should no longer be the goal for the one saved. Where else can Christian go when he dies? We are saved to become and the training is for now; the end of God's will for your life.

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Originally Posted by Ben
What is "The Greatest Commandment"?

Does that commandment have anything to do with "salvation"?
Absolutely and to the degree I have tried to explain. I hope I have somewhat suceeded.

The "greatest commandment", is "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength".

THAT is the kind of belief that is "saved". A "belief" that is not fully indwelt, is not dead-to-sin and alive-to-Christ, is not loving Him with all that we are.

Originally spoken to the children of Israel, children of God.

Does this make sense? You recognize that you don't know what "saved belief" is; let's look at Romans 6; Paul labors to say "we are EITHER slaves to sin, OR slaves to righteousness and God". There is no third choice.

Spoken to children of God, already saved and born again. Your 3rd choice is a strawman.

Enslaved to God, through love, means fully committed to Him; no room for "I want Christ but I want my secular life as well". He who doesn't want Jesus COMPLETELY, does not love Jesus with all his might.

No kidding. I would have thought we have made that clear by now. I have.

When we are saved, we are justified, and sanctified, and washed (1Cor6:11); "washed" is "regeneration" ---- and regeneration is by the INDWELLING Spirit. That's an intimate indwelling, FELLOWSHIP. It's not casual, cannot be casual.

Distinctions, Ben. Make them better.

He who is not regenerated, dwells in sin, and not in Christ. This is why there is no such thing as "saved" that exists separate from "born again". The Spirit regenerates us, and we are new

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I am not going back over the same territory, Ben. Enough, think as you will.

 

[GenemZ]

Me choosing Him, Him choosing me.

I repeat, "Many are called [and respond] but few are chosen", per your scripture selection from Matt. 22. I believe you are missing something when you read it.

Have you ever asked yourself why believers disagree so strongly on this matter? ...

Ever question why others believe differently than you?

I would.




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[Ormly]

Have you ever asked yourself why believers disagree so strongly on this matter? ...

Of course. Their belief, [yours] being what it is won't allow me to be right. I can't be right, you would have throw away to many books.

Ever question why others believe differently than you?

Nope. I already know why. Same as you, wrong perspective on the cross.

I would.

Of course. I can't help but be wrong with you limited view..




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[GenemZ]

Hi, "Sawdust".
So you perceive a position of "saved but not-persevering, not abiding in the teachings". With respect, exactly what would salvation be to such a person?

"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." 1Tim4:1

What does "fall away from the faith" mean?

Sound doctrine = faith = Divine good.

Teachings of demons = false doctrine = evil.
​

Falling from the faith, means to be seduced away from sound doctrine because we want to rule over our soul by what we personally feel in our emotions and how we personally think God is.

2 Timothy 4:3 (New International Version)
"For the time will come when men will not put up with [endure] sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."



​

Many a believer will refuse to accept sound doctrine because it offers nothing for their flesh to take possession of.

Their natural passions and desires become annoyed and irritated by sound doctrine. They want something that "feels at home" with their flesh.


They need something they can emotionally dig in their heels about when thinking Scripture.

Therefore, men will not "endure" .. "put up with" .. sound doctrine. Instead, to suite their own desires? Will seek out teachings that make their flesh feel alive in what they call God's plan.

A perfect example of that was with many of the Jews and Pharisees who thought that their salvation depended upon their own morality and obedience to certain rules which were demanding works...

If you believe in Jesus Christ? You are saved. If you do not believe in Jesus Christ? You are not saved.

For? If you believe in Jesus Christ? You are family of God. Now? One can be a good son, or a bad son. But, one is still a son. The protocol son was not disowned while he was being bad. He was denied blessings and happiness while he was being bad.

Luke 7:47 (New International Version)
"Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
​

The works crowd love very little. For they see themselves as needing little forgiveness. Because they are "so obedient."

They see a little life... not abundance in love. And, they will try to nail to wobbly crosses, grace oriented believers with their legalism.

For the legalists are control freaks by nature. They want to run the lives of others. That is why so much attention was given to the pharisees in the Bible. Its was a warning to those who walk in grace and truth.

Galatians 4:29 (New American Standard Bible)
"But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also."
​

Our thinking is either born of the flesh [false doctrine] or born of the Spirit [sound doctrine - faith].

The legalist will always persecute the grace oriented believer with distortions of the Word used to try and devise scare tactics to keep the potentially happy grace oriented believer down. Down, so others can be under his control. Not, the Spirit's.

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
​

That is why grace oriented believers need to fight the good fight. So that the truth may prevail in their hearts and so that they may stand before the Lord in confidence of having done right before Him.


In the mean time. I do not hope you do not lose what can not be lost. But, I do know you can lose your eternal rewards and special blessings. There will be a weeping and gnashing of teeth by those who find out too late.


In Christ, GeneZ





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[Ormly]

That is why grace oriented believers need to fight the good fight. So that the truth may prevail in their hearts and so that they may stand before the Lord in confidence of having done right before Him.

"Done", as in doing works??

 

[GenemZ]

"Done", as in doing works??

In the following manner.....

Ephesians 2:10 (New International Version)
"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
​

Our works (deeds of intrinsically good value) to be done in God's will, are unique to each one of us individually. Its God's workmanship... its creative in approach! Unique to the individual.

In contrast..Those who are the "works crowd?"

These ones are always prescribing a version of works (legalism) upon others. Traditions of men, for all to follow. Cookie cutter believers.

Obedient robots under the eyes of those who are control freaks, who express their lust to control others in the name of God. Like the Pharisees did.

And, the common man looked up to the Pharisees in ignorance of sound teaching in grace. These leaders craved the attention of others as they exercised abusive authority over them. They use Scripture to create rules and laws to get what they wanted; to lord over others by inducing fear and doubt.

Doubt? Fear? Telling someone they can lose their salvation is the great snare for the ignorant (who will escape after they grow in knowledge) and for the stupid who never learn.





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[Ormly]

In the following manner.....

Ephesians 2:10 (New International Version)​

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."​

​

Our works (deeds of intrinsically good value) to be done in God's will, are unique to each one of us individually. Its God's workmanship... its creative in approach! Unique to the individual.

In contrast..Those who are the "works crowd?"

These ones are always prescribing a version of works (legalism) upon others. Traditions of men, for all to follow. Cookie cutter believers.

Obedient robots under the eyes of those who are control freaks, who express their lust to control others in the name of God. Like the Pharisees did.

And, the common man looked up to the Pharisees in ignorance of sound teaching in grace. These leaders craved the attention of others as they exercised abusive authority over them. They use Scripture to create rules and laws to get what they wanted; to lord over others by inducing fear and doubt.

Doubt? Fear? Telling someone they can lose their salvation is the great snare for the ignorant (who will escape after they grow in knowledge) and for the stupid who never learn.

More religious speak from you.

Perhaps you can explain what God's implicit will is for those who can legally claim His Name, those whom Christ has chosen from the many called, who can't?





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[GenemZ]

[/font][/size]

More religious speak from you.

Perhaps you can explain what God's implicit will is for those who can legally claim His Name, those whom Christ has chosen from the many called, who can't?

More religious speak from me? What?

Are you not a Christian?


The very fact that I did explain.. And, then you turn around ask me to say what would be wrong to say? Reveals, I would be wasting my time, to try. You need to discover God's will for your life alone! Your's! There is no implicit command that is common to all for the same works. That's why we are told not to judge each other.

Romans 12:2 (New International Version)
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
​

That is saying we are to grow in grace and truth. That when we do? THEN! We will be able to discover what God's perfect and "pleasing" will is for our individual life.


And, there you stand. Demanding that I tell you what God's will is for all believers?!


This much I can tell you. This is God's will for us all. What is required as to be made able to come to know his will for our life.

2 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)
"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."
​

He is the Word!

The Word that became flesh!

Know the Word, and you will know the mind of Christ. For we have been given the mind (thinking) of Christ!

1 Corinthians 2:16 (New International Version)
"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."
​

Grow in knowledge of God's Word! If you do so in humility, God's grace will be with you. Then you will be able to discover for yourself what's God's will for your life. Not mine. Not others. YOUR'S!



In His service, GeneZ






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[Ormly]

Grow in knowledge of God's Word! If you do so in humility, God's grace will be with you. Then you will be able to discover for yourself what's God's will for your life. Not mine. Not others. YOUR'S!

But you have just stated what God's IMPLICIT will is for everyone who claim His Name. Can't you recognize it in your own words and referrences when trying to define for me what I already know?

. . . .and yes I am a Christian, youngster, one many years; longer than you have been born.

 

[GenemZ]

But you have just stated what God's IMPLICIT will is for everyone who claim His Name.

You were asking me about knowing God's implicit will for our works. Were you not?

Can't you recognize it in your own words and referrences when trying to define for me what I already know?

You asked a question. Since you asked? I answered. Next time, tell me to say something you do not know, then.

. . . .and yes I am a Christian, youngster, one many years; longer than you have been born.

Many years? You make it sound like your eighty- ninety years old. Are you?

Besides, how long one is saved is meaningless as far as quality of one's spiritual life. Its how much one remains walking in the Spirit that counts.

If someone is saved for ten years, and then dies? And, in those ten years? He was walking in the Spirit 99% of the time?

What good was it if someone else is saved for fifty years; and for those fifty years? He was only filled with the Spirit just long enough to get saved?

The one saved for ten years got to know God much more than the one saved for many who refused to grow spiritually by grace.


How long one is saved is not an issue (after reaching a certain point). The issue is to redeem the time, to reach spiritual maturity in Christ as quickly as one can. And, then when mature, stay in the Spirit as one's life unfolds.. as God reveals the works he has assigned us individually to live out by grace and in the truth we are supposed to be continuously growing in.

And, on to another matter...

Of course. Their belief, [yours] being what it is won't allow me to be right. I can't be right, you would have throw away to many books.

So? .... You think what I tell you is simply gathered from books?

Is that's your indirect way of telling me I should be writing books?

Its either that. Or, you do not believe I am able to think for myself.



In Christ, GeneZ





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[Ben johnson]

Ben? On the Cross? What penalty did Jesus bear on our behalf? Not only for us who believe. But for the whole world.

From what you keep telling us? I really think you do not know.

What does "propitiation" mean? Appeasement. Jesus is the payment for our sins. For the WHOLE WORLD? Holos kosmos means that; but is the whole world saved? No.

What's the difference between the "saved", and "the whole world"? It's faith, isn't it?

"This is the will of God, that all who see Jesus AND BELIEVE may be saved."
"God is just, and justifier of HE WHO BELIEVES."

So Jesus redeemed the whole world. But most people are not redeemed. Seems to be their choice, doesn't it?

Redemption can be rejected; therefore salvation can be forfeited...

 

[Ben johnson]

What's different between "saved", and "born again"?

Me choosing Him, Him choosing me.

I repeat, "Many are called [and respond] but few are chosen", per your scripture selection from Matt. 22. I believe you are missing something when you read it.

Who is "not chosen for salvation"? Who does God not want?

All are called, therefore from God's side, all are chosen to salvation. But not all COME --- "many are called" (all), "but few are chosen" (those who come and receive His righteousness).

Missing nothing; universal invitation, those WHO accept, become "the chosen"...

 

[Ben johnson]

So you perceive a position of "saved but not-persevering, not abiding in the teachings". With respect, exactly what would salvation be to such a person?

Usually miserable because they come under constant discipline.

That's the point. Those who do not persevere/abide, are NOT under His discipline. In Heb12, "If we are WITHOUT God's discipline, then we are illegitimate and NOT SONS. We accepted discipline from earthly fathers; SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?

Do not refuse Him-who-warns-from-Heaven; much less shall WE escale who turn away from God."

Second verse.

Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Tim.4:2

Note: "teachings" - plural.

Third verse gives an example regarding two of those teachings. There are as many false teachings as there are sound teachings.

And it asserts that deception away from the Gospel, is possible.

So, what does it mean to "fall away from the faith"? It means having started with the truth (ie the Gospel), they go on to take in other truths that are not of God but are in fact lies.

No, it means "IN the faith", then "fall AWAY"...

Please explain to me how overcoming sin does not require our participation. What of James1:14-16? What of 1Cor10:12-13? What of Rom6 (beginning with verse 1)?

This most probably needs some qualification. You do not directly participate in overcoming your sin. In other words, you do not say, "I will not sin." If you do, you will fail. Maybe not at first, but eventually you will, it is guaranteed. This is what Paul is getting at in Romans 7. He wills to do good (not sin), but he can't succeed. The sin nature that is at work in our flesh is stronger than the strongest human will.

So how do we overcome sin? Two things must be done.
1. Sin must be judged and and put to death. Christ did this for us on the Cross. He took the judgment, He took the penalty on His own shoulders and His alone. We did not do it, He did.

Therefore, as Paul says, "we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin." Rom.6:11.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Can someone do that, without STOPPING-sinning?

The Lord counts you the sinner as being dead. In the same way you are to see yourself as dead. You don't will yourself dead to sin, you reckon yourself dead to it because you have been baptised into Christ's death. It is what the Lord has done to you, not what you can do for yourself.

The second thing that needs to happen, and this is where we directly participate, is learning the word of truth.

I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you. Psalm 119:11

This is the area we apply our volition to. It is taking the truth of God's word into our soul; I will learn it, I willl believe it, I will stand upon it.

The first is a given, but the second we actively pursue and our victory over sin is the automatic outcome of resting in the truth of God's word in the filling of the Spirit.

You're missing the most important part --- stopping sinning. The problem as you cited, is presented in Rom7; the "war between the old sinful nature, and the new godly nature". But the SOLUTION to that problem, is in chapter 8.

If we walk in the flesh, pursuing its lusts, WE must DIE. But if by the Spirit we are putting to death the flesh, we live.

It's not that we are "reckoned righteous in the MIDST of our sin" --- we actually cease practicing sin.

Let's discuss what kind of a "saved-believer" it is, who has not God's approval. What does such a person believe, Sawdust? How is he different from an "approved believer"?
Hmmm; the context speaks of those debating whether women should cover their heads; and speaks of one being hungry and another being DRUNK. Is it possible that "approved", means "saved"?

The difference is the approved believer is commended and the unapproved is rebuked (told they are wrong). Still in 1 Cor.11, see verses 17 & 22.

Are you sure that's the right reference??? Or are you perceiving that "divisions and factions" exist in the saved? What about what Paul says of "divisions and factions", in Gal5:20? Verse 21 says "they shall NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God"...

I thought we had already established you had to believe Christ as Saviour to be in Christ. If Christ is not in you then you are not in Christ. You fail the test.

But he's speaking to an audience considered "saved". The word "adokimos" was used intentionally. A coin was examined to see if it still bore the image impressed upon it; if not, it was "adokimos-rejected".

The point, is that the image WAS there. In no way can this be construed to mean "Oh you were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place"...

It doesn't say "so that heaven's gates will be provided"...

Oh yes it does. It says "so that the gates of Heaven will be abundantly provided". There is no "abundant and SPARSE" entrance, there is "abundant or not at ALL"...

it qualifies the entrance into the Kingdom. We are to be dilligent so our entry is rich and not poor.

Hah hah hah! A RICH entrance for the RIGHTEOUS (abundant!), and a SPARSE entrance for the UNRIGHTEOUS! Do you really believe that an ungodly/immoral/uncontrolled/unloving/unkind FORGOTTEN-former-purification person, will get there at ALL?

He won't, Sawdust. With sincere respect and consideration for you --- will you please consider that the idea of "some will enter Heaven but with LESS pomp", is really just re-visiting what satan said in the garden?

"You won't REALLY die..."

Some will enter with little faith, some will enter with much faith. We are rewarded according to the measure of our faith. Our faith is our work. Faith is the truth alive and at work in our soul (thinking) in which we rest.

John is very clear, and black-n-white. "He who HAS the Son, has the eternal life; he who has not the Son of God nas not the eternal life."

It's not "good-faith/bad-faith", it's "faith that HAS CHRIST", or not.[/b[]

1Tim4:16 We've already discussed this; you perceive it as "being saved from bad perception to others"; so I look forward to your comments on verse 1...

I have no idea what you are talking about which most probably means you never really understood what I said in the first place.

Verse 16 says "save yourselves"; you cited verse 15, asserting "saved from bad-perception-to-others". That's not what he's saying; "save-yourselves", means "save yourselves eternally".

The fact that it was the believers who had done the work then it couldn't be talking about salvation from death which, is the result of sin because Christ did that work. It can only be talking about growing in the knowledge of truth by means of God's grace. As that can only occur while in the filling of the Spirit, if a person runs ahead (ie outside) of the truth then the Father and Son, who are never outside the truth, would not be participating in their race. They would need to get back on track to enjoy the fellowship of the Father and the Son that awaits them.

It's stark and clear, Sawdust.

He who goes too far and does not abide, HAS NOT CHRIST. Identical with 1Jn which says "He who HAS the Son, HAS eternal life; he who does not, does not."

There's only one understanding --- we can be deceived away from salvation.

And who says he does? You? Me?

Scripture. Rom11:21-23 for instance.

If someone says "I believe Jesus is Saviour" are you going to call them a liar if they don't move on in their walk as you think they should?

Yes. Not I, but JOHN: "If we say we have fellowship with Him but walk in the darkness, we LIE and do not practice the truth..."

Can we see into their heart to see if it's a dishonest claim or a self-deception based on ignorance?

YES! Jesus said "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will KNOW them by their FRUIT!"

I leave such things up to the Lord. My job is to be responsible for what I believe and to grow in God's truth.

He has given it to us to "judge with righteous judgment". He has stated that "fruits display the heart".

And throughout Scripture we are warned to continue IN Christ, IN salvation...

 

[Ben johnson]

And as I have explained before belief in Christ is more than just the Gospel. The Gospel is the power unto salvation. Deceivers love nothing more than to lead away those who have begun a good race into false doctrine so that they doubt their salvation and hence doubt the word of the Lord and fail to mature in faith.

Sorry, the deception is away from Chist and into empty worldly philosophy.[/b] There is no way that is "still saved".

If "still saved", then there is NO difference between the "saved/deceived", and the "goats" Jesus will separate out when He returns.

Neither, because you presume to start from the wrong end. A person doesn't come to unbelief. Unbelief is all he has until the truth is revealed to him that he might believe. Learning to take in the truth through faith eliminates unbelief. To not abide and grow in the truth exposes the unbelief that is already present.

Not according to Rom11:21-23, Col2:6-8, Heb3:6-15, etcetera; we can come to unbelief, clear and undeniable.

I perceive there will be no Christians in the second resurrection. Although I dare say there will be those who claimed to be yet were not.

That is my perception too...

I don't see believers as "concepts" but as spiritually alive creatures. (this is opposed to unbelievers who are spiritually dead creatures) Being spiritually alive gives one the capacity to know God. It does not, however, guarantee one will know much.

We who are "spiritually alive", are "dead to sin". Those who are "alive to sin", are "dead to Christ". Rom6 is clear.

That Jesus Christ is Saviour. When they believe that truth, they are born again, baptised in the Spirit, baptised into Christ, transferred into the Kingdom of God, made citizens of heaven and the list goes on.

...and RIGHTEOUS...

As these things are all a gift from God and are kept safe by His word, they cannot be lost.

ONLY if faith itself cannot be lost; Rom11:21-23, Heb3:6-14, and many other passages say it CAN.

Now, having received all those things (through faith), we have a responsibility to grow up by continuing to grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. (we already know He is Saviour but there is much more to learn)

And per Heb5-6, those who do NOT grow, aren't saved.

Well, I've been trying.

Yet I've overturned what you've said; not I, but Scripture. Take the verses I've cited in these two posts; can you deny what they say?

I understand you do but that doesn't mean you are correct. However you are correct in that they are not being led of the Spirit.

You're still asserting a position of "saved but not led by the Spirit". Impossible, Sawdust; he who is not led by the Spirit, doesn't belong to God.

That's an absolute.

No, I'm not asserting a middle-of-the-road. I agree with you in that you are either a believer and are saved or you are an unbeliever and are not saved.

A "believer", is "led by the Spirit". Period.

Yes He will. That completion will be revealed in the resurrection.

No. We are required to be righteous, now. Because it is HIM who is righteous in and through us.

That's the message of Heb5:11-6:8, "Grow, or not-be-saved".

No, the message is grow or face Christ at the evaluation seat with no spiritual production of any consequence. Look at the analogy in verses 7&8.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Heb.6:7&8

The "land" is the believer. The "crop" is his/her spiritual production (ie faith). The "rain that falls often" is the Lord's grace given in truth. The land that soaks in the rain (lives by the truth) produces a good crop (faith) which results in blessing (a life filled with love, joy, peace etc.). The land that rejects the rain when it falls upon it (denys the truth when it is presented to them) produces weeds (unbelief) which results in works of the flesh. It is the produce that is burned up not the land itself. The land (believer) remains. Their only reward is the new spiritual body.

"CURSED and BURNED", is STILL SAVED? How do I convince you it's NOT?

Fits in with 1 Cor.3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In this case, he's saying "will be taught to produce better works".

We could discuss how "unrighteous works", expose "unsalvation". Eph5:5-6 is clear; 1Cor6:9-11 is too. Gal5:19-21 very clear. But 1Jn3:5-10 is the best.

No I'm not. I'm recognising that faith comes in measure.

Not saving faith; it's THERE, or NOT.

"He who HAS the Son, HAS eternal life; he who does not have the Son, does not have eternal life."

How much faith does it take to be saved? A "tick" more than no faith at all. How much faith does it take to reach maturity in Christ? A whole lot more.

Sorry --- someone HAS Christ, or does NOT.

That would be a waste of good prayer time. I don't believe one can be saved without faith.

No it wouldn't; eventually you'll see the truth of Scripture that no one can be sinningly-saved. With respect, that's what you've been proposing for those who receive the SPARSE entrance into Heaven; they have a LITTLE faith, but not enough to overcome their sin.

No, it all begins with grace. Grace that is received through faith

Received, and abided-in.

Faith can become unbelief, so salvation can become forfeit.

 

[Ben johnson]

Come away from the redemption issue. Move on to learn more about Jesus and the more of why He went to the cross.

The one who doesn’t choose Him after receiving Him to continue in the grooming process; the one who can’t overcome his “Self” that he might learn Christ unto his own son-ship. Before you respond: Do you believe all will receive the same reward in that day? Why not? What will it depend upon? Why should it depend upon anything if all are born again?

The "reward of the inheritance" (Col3:25), is the same for everyone (Matt20:1-16).

I know all about that and I am sure your telling of the account is no different than what folk are generally given to believe, which is incomplete. I am sure you will digress to that level further into this.

We are filled with the Holy Spirit, regenerated, washed, made new creations. "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold all has become new." 2Cor5:17

Concept??

Indeed, I have. Have you studied the theology of the cross, allowing yourself to go beyond the issue of redemption? I don't think so. You don't read like you have.

Salvation is "having Christ" --- indwelt fellowship of love. We are more than just "redeemed from sins"; we are regenerated, so that we no longer walk in sin.

Walking in Christ, and not in sin, is what "repentance" is about. We turn FROM sin, TO Christ.

More than that because what is indwelt is only His Nature given that we might learn the Character of the Father. One an imputation whiles the other, an impartation received when we [learn to] “abide”.

More than just "His nature"; HE indwells us.

So we can say basically, 3 outta 4 don’t make the cut for “Self” reasons.. Ah, how the need for Pentecost becomes evident.

There is no difference between the beginning of the "rocky", and the beginning of the "good". It's not how we BEGIN that matters so much, but whether or not we end in Him...

Not exactly does it connect to Hebs 6:7,8. The difficulty I see in your thinking is you believe the one in whom the cares of life jump up and bite him implies he loses his salvation while I would say it possibly could be but that (is) dependent upon where he is In his “becoming” process.

It says "fall away"; that's not a negotiable statement --- they fall away, or they remain. Those in 13 fall away, those in 15 remain.

If he is far along in the process and falls away, Hebs 6 might be the case for him. We can’t judge that.

Yes, we can; and you're right, they are as those in Heb6 --- saved, but then fall-away.

...from salvation...

Then speak of it. Just don’t proof text me, ok?

What have I not explained clearly, and/or supported with Scripture?

satan? Why blame him when “Self” is such as he is?

"Self" is certainly one of the forces in our lives...

That is the caveat, isn’t it? . . . Seeking Him after being saved.

No, "seeking Him to BE saved, and CONTINUING to seek Him"...

Oh, he believes in Christ, alright. He just believes he can have Him on his own terms.

Then he doesn't really believe, does he? Taking Christ on our OWN terms, means we consider Christ a "liar".

Ah, what ignorance will do whether willful or otherwise. God have mercy of our teachers.

Yet he who walks in sin, does not walk in Christ. Ignorance is no excuse...

Think intimacy, Ben. If you are not practicing intimacy; seeking it, what are you about and why? “Why” being the important issue here.

Gets right back to "he who has the Son, has eternal life; he who does not, has not.

You must mean, “willful” walking in sin is the definition of unrepentant, don’t you?

Yes. Constant, repeat.

Ben, I don’t believe the nominally saved have the Spirit of Christ. If they did they would be born again, possessing the very Nature of God that the Man Jesus possessed.

This needs to be settled between us; he who has not Christ, has not eternal life; how can that absolute be exempted?

 

[Ben johnson]

That isn’t what I said, Ben. That is not what my remark infers. Refusing to accept the spirit isn’t something I am alluding to. I am saying it isn’t given. Going back to our previous agreement about those saved who never hear of Christ, Paul says this: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. . . . . . .
Those who live by their convictions devoid of the knowledge of Christ, technically speaking, are not living by the flesh. In that regard they are God pleasers unto justification, per Rom. 5:1.
. . . . . But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:7-9 (KJV)
Paul is addressing folk who are seeking to know the Father after coming into the knowledge of Christ, His salvation, the born again and Pentecostal experiences, making the distinctions necessary between nominalism and intimacy.

No, he's making a distinction between "carnal" (walking in the flesh, unsaved), and "spiritual" (walkin in the Spirit, saved).

Amen. Who is too blame, Ben? Do we blame our 2000 yr old” orthodox” traditions? What is the error handed down to us that has corrupted the message of the cross?

The churches who do not teach "the person(s) of God"; who do not teach that "unrighteousness is not tolerated".

As I just stated, satan is still trying to promote what he begain in the Garden: "You will not really die."

Pretty serious, isn’t it? One certainly can know about God, can't one? Isn't that where theology falls short?

No; theology is the study of Scripture. Scripture says we can know God, by having Christ and the Spirit. He who has the Son, has eternal life.

Then you must fathom that all out before saying someone isn't saved.

We're given lists of stuff people who aren't saved, do; one who is fornicating, drunk, stealing, murdering, etcetera, isn't saved.

Believing is to be converted in the mind. Acting upon that belief is a result of desiring what you believe.

He who ACTS, is saved; he who does not act, does not really believe.

Jesus is there for that one who takes action. His blood cleanses and makes whole, salvation happens. Now comes the part where one must count the cost if he is to continue per Jn 17. Know anyone who doesn’t continue, I do. Good church folk.

And those who do NOT take action, He's not there for...

Better you said Jesus indwells the true believer; one who trusts in and relies upon Christ per Gal. 2:20.

EXACTLY that! Jesus lives in us, and the Spirit indwells us. IF we're saved. If neither, then we're not.

Absolutely however, it implies more than nominal salvation, more than receiving Christ as if one is doing Him a favor by accepting Him. Better it be that one dismiss the sinner’s prayer but cries out to God for his salvation, having a more complete knowledge of what His salvation is for and signifies.

Nicely said.

Finney, in his meetings called it a mourning bench and God would direct him to those ready to receive. Some were there on their knees for a week.

Ouch.

I understand. Now, how can it be appropriated for practical life without a personal Pentecost? However, that is another subject desparately in need of understanding.

I agree. You and I can have a wonderful conversation (although, in this venue it's but symbols on a computer screen); but we can fellowship.

There is no "walking with Christ", without spending time with Him, in conversation!

Prayer is the conversation of love between God and man.

However, initially they were saved, weren’t they? If you say no what do you base upon?

Because He NEVER knew them...

That's strong. I won’t make that call. We must define what it means to have eternal life as I believe John sees something more than we see and I believe it is more than we are given by our theologies for us to grasp. I know you are making a valiant effort, but (no) cigar.

We're told he who has Jesus, has life. You already cited Gal2:20; that's the description.

Certainly he will perish from son-ship and Joint-heir-ship. . . . which is at the heart of all the Father is after by redeeming us, calling it "eternal life". All part of the theology of the cross, Ben.

And "perish-from-sonship" and "from joint-heir-ship", isn't "saved"...

To live by the very life of Christ? It wasn’t for Paul and when we see it as he did, it won’t be for us either. Seeing it is where we fall short. Note: in reading Gal 2.20, carefully make the comparison using the various translations with the KJV rendering. It will read differently, something less in most. Little preps can change much thinking.

He who receives Jesus, becomes subject to Him; "Lord", means "Master".

Originally spoken to the children of Israel, children of God.

Yet applies to us. Though not descendants of Abraham, we are "children of the Promise".

Spoken to children of God, already saved and born again. Your 3rd choice is a strawman.

No, it's a constant choice. That's why we're constantly admonished to "diligence"...

No kidding. I would have thought we have made that clear by now. I have.

And that's why this issue is important; we either belong to Him, or we don't.

He who is not regenerated, dwells in sin, and not in Christ. This is why there is no such thing as "saved" that exists separate from "born again". The Spirit regenerates us, and we are new

I am not going back over the same territory, Ben. Enough, think as you will.

Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will know them by their fruits."

A saved person is righteous, an unsaved is not. Those in Matt7:21-23 "practiced unrighteousness"...

 

[beloved57]

As I just stated, satan is still trying to promote what he begain in the Garden: "You will not really die."

Nope, the lie is now, you are not surely dead lol..

 

[Ormly]

No, he's making a distinction between "carnal" (walking in the flesh, unsaved), and "spiritual" (walkin in the Spirit, saved).
The churches who do not teach "the person(s) of God"; who do not teach that "unrighteousness is not tolerated".

As I just stated, satan is still trying to promote what he begain in the Garden: "You will not really die."
No; theology is the study of Scripture. Scripture says we can know God, by having Christ and the Spirit. He who has the Son, has eternal life.
We're given lists of stuff people who aren't saved, do; one who is fornicating, drunk, stealing, murdering, etcetera, isn't saved.
He who ACTS, is saved; he who does not act, does not really believe. And those who do NOT take action, He's not there for...
EXACTLY that! Jesus lives in us, and the Spirit indwells us. IF we're saved. If neither, then we're not.
Nicely said. Ouch.
I agree. You and I can have a wonderful conversation (although, in this venue it's but symbols on a computer screen); but we can fellowship.

There is no "walking with Christ", without spending time with Him, in conversation!

Prayer is the conversation of love between God and man.
Because He NEVER knew them...
We're told he who has Jesus, has life. You already cited Gal2:20; that's the description.
And "perish-from-sonship" and "from joint-heir-ship", isn't "saved"...
He who receives Jesus, becomes subject to Him; "Lord", means "Master".
Yet applies to us. Though not descendants of Abraham, we are "children of the Promise".
No, it's a constant choice. That's why we're constantly admonished to "diligence"...
And that's why this issue is important; we either belong to Him, or we don't.
Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will know them by their fruits."

A saved person is righteous, an unsaved is not. Those in Matt7:21-23 "practiced unrighteousness"...

Perhaps Beloved57 will accomodate you. I refuse to go circular.

 

[sawdust]

That's the point. Those who do not persevere/abide, are NOT under His discipline. In Heb12, "If we are WITHOUT God's discipline, then we are illegitimate and NOT SONS. We accepted discipline from earthly fathers; SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?

Do not refuse Him-who-warns-from-Heaven; much less shall WE escale who turn away from God."

Ben, do you even realise you have just contradicted yourself. You have just said that they don't get disciplined then .... but they can't escape.

And don't you dare turn around and change the subject of this passage.

The context is discipline not salvation from sin.

The very fact they will not escape discipline[/B proves they are children of God and not illegitimate.

And it asserts that deception away from the Gospel, is possible.

For the tenth millionth time (well maybe slight exageration there ), there is more to the truth than the Gospel. The Gospel is for unbelievers. This scripture is directed to believers. Discipline is given to those who have already received the Gospel and need to learn how to walk in the Spirit by faith. That walk is not automatic, it is not natural, it must be learnt. Some learn, some refuse the discipline and never learn.

This needs to be dealt with before I respond to the rest of your post. You can't have it boths ways. You can't say they won't escape discipline while at the same time not being disciplined.

peace

 

[sawdust]

To Ben,

You're missing the most important part --- stopping sinning. The problem as you cited, is presented in Rom7; the "war between the old sinful nature, and the new godly nature". But the SOLUTION to that problem, is in chapter 8.

If we walk in the flesh, pursuing its lusts, WE must DIE. But if by the Spirit we are putting to death the flesh, we live.

It's not that we are "reckoned righteous in the MIDST of our sin" --- we actually cease practicing sin.

That was your response. How am I missing the most important part Ben?

This is what I said.

.... we actively pursue and our victory over sin is the automatic outcome of resting in the truth of God's word in the filling of the Spirit.

Where did I miss "stop sinning"? Did you even read what I said?

peace