Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

Genez,


ONLY spiritually. We are creatures and always shall be. As long as we are, then God is present in His Grace to sustain the life of His creature and creation. Thus God is present in Hell as well. He upholds all things.

Again... You are missing /ignoring what was said.

God's love will not be made manifest in the Lake of Fire. God does not love evil.


This has gone over the line and has entered into the absurd.

I know I can not lose my salvation. But, sanity is no guarantee.

So?


Redeeming the Ignore option.





.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Again... You are missing /ignoring what was said.

Not missing, nor ignoring, it is not relevant.

God's love will not be made manifest in the Lake of Fire. God does not love evil.

who said anything about loving evil. God loves His creatures, every single one. The fire of hell will be the love of God which cannot be returned.

This has gone over the line and has entered into the absurd.

You have been there for some time.

I know I can not lose my salvation. But, sanity is no guarantee.

that may be based on your interpretation, but it has not been the understanding of scripture since it was given. There is absolutely no historicity of your view anywhere that I could determine. It is but your very own personal interpretation.

 

[heymikey80]

One who is forced to love won't/can't feel that way. Nor could it ever be received by Him who seeks it as such. If you have childen you should realize that. So it isn't me who is wrong.

So let's look at it from the other side. The parent seems compelled to love their child, so it's therefore not love?

Should the law be revoked that requires parents to nurture and care for their young? It would be preventing the parents from being loving.

Is there a Law that God requires us to love Him, and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves? How about the love that obliges the husband? How about the love that obliges the children?

I think it's rather that the model of "if it's not a choice, then it's forced" is mistaken. While I disagree regarding b57's assertion, "no choice", I don't think that someone who deduces that a particular decision is outside the realm of possibility, is somehow forcing the will in a direction. The will is choosing, sure. But the will already inherently shuts off a number of possible choices, because the will is unwilling.

 

[Ormly]

So let's look at it from the other side. The parent seems compelled to love their child, so it's therefore not love?
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The parent seems compelled to love?? Isn't that the way God made things to be however, does it NEGATE the desire to have love in return? Hmm?
That is the case per scripture and it can't happen by force or coersion for it to be love that is returned.

 

[Ormly]

Genez,

Not missing, nor ignoring, it is not relevant.
who said anything about loving evil. God loves His creatures, every single one. The fire of hell will be the love of God which cannot be returned.
You have been there for some time.
that may be based on your interpretation, but it has not been the understanding of scripture since it was given. There is absolutely no historicity of your view anywhere that I could determine. It is but your very own personal interpretation.

God is Light. In Him there is no darkness. Where darkness is, He isn't there. If He were, darkness would be dispelled. Hell is darkness.

 

[heymikey80]

The parent seems compelled to love?? Isn't that the way God made things to be however, does it NEGATE the desire to have love in return? Hmm?

That is the case per scripture and it can't happen by force or coersion for it to be love that is returned.

If love may be compelled by biology or psychology, I wonder why the continued assertion that love can't be compelled in return. =shrug=

"You shall love the Lord your God."

What's the penalty for rejecting God in the Law? Would that be a coercive penalty?

I find the argument itself doesn't really carry. But then, outside that issue, I don't think these things undergo the force of compulsion for those who believe. So -- no dog in this fight, it just seems to me the argument that love is utterly free of compulsion isn't really the case -- Scripturally or experientially.

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

God is Light. In Him there is no darkness. Where darkness is, He isn't there. If He were, darkness would be dispelled. Hell is darkness.

You have it going in the wrong direction. If we are IN Him there is no darkness. Hell does not mean we are IN HIM. However, Christ is the Light of the World. Is the World dark or those whose choose not to be IN Him.

 

[sawdust]

Hi, Sawdust; not that I'm speaking for "Rightglory", but I do understand his position (mostly).There is only one Savior --- and Rightglory fully acknowledges this. Yet --- man's participation in his salvation, is Scripturally sound.

He didn't speak of participation. He said it was "solely man's responsibility to save himself or lose himself". As the context was salvation from sin, he errs considerably.

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things. [/b]As you do you will save yourselves..." 1Tim4:16

The concept of "save ourselves", is well established, in this verse and others. See 1Pet1:9 ("obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls"). It simply does not conflict "One Savior", to understand that we choose to accept His salvation, or not.

It conflicts when you apply such passages to salvation from death (due to sin), both physical and spiritual. Christ bore that death in his own body. He also received life in His body. Both the punishment for sin and the salvation unto life from sin is in Christ. There is absolutely nothing we can do to overcome sin and the death that comes from it, it is in Christ. We either believe that or we don't. If we believe, we are entered into that salvation. And there is no correspondence entered into... He died, we die. He lives, we live.... end of story.

And that it is our choice, rather than God's, is the only view that fits these verses.

It is God's choice to make salvation "in Christ". It is our choice to believe it or not.

You're condemning Rightglory for something you know he does not hold;

I am condemning no-one. His own words will acquit or condemn him just as much as mine will for me. And I have no idea what he believes because I can't make head nor tails of most of what he says. He seems to say one thing in one post and another thing in a different post.

It's just that we perceive that we choose (by faith) to rely on Him, while others (perhaps including you) perceive that GOD chooses FOR us (that we will rely on Him, consequently because of His prior choice).

I have no idea why you even raise this sort of issue. It makes absolutely no difference whether a person chooses to believe or refuses to believe, salvation has been wrought in Christ, fullstop. There is no point telling someone to "believe in Jesus" if they have no idea what actually occured between the Father and the Son at the point of the Cross. When they can understand what Christ did on that Cross and realise (believe) "it is finished", then they are free to get on with the business of living and start taking responsibility for the real issue in a Christian's walk and that is in overcoming evil, the corruption that is in this world. Now, this salvation, Christ did not die for but the grace that is needed for us to overcome is found in Him and the truth of His word. It is this salvation (from evil) that most Christians will never actualise in their life on this earth. They will remain like ignorant babes pushed around by anyone who wants to take advantage of them. They will be unstable in their thinking, forever chasing "rainbows" and wondering why they never get a "pot of gold". The abundant life Christ came to give is only realised through perseverance in growing up in the knowledge of the truth. The Word is the truth.

Now, Sawdust, where have you ever heard Rightglory speak of "his own righteousness"? He and I fully understand that we HAVE no righteousness, except that which flows through us from Jesus. "God made Him who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf, so that through Him we may become the righteousness of God."
I know if I have erred about Rightglory's views, he will correct me; but if so, the errors will be small.

I put his words up about making promises to God. If you can't see the arrogance in that then maybe you don't know the Word as well as I thougt you did. When anyone thinks that our words can be trustworthy enough to be given as promises, then they really ought to think again. I don't make promises to people let alone God. "let your yes be yes and your no be no." (I can't find the reference)

You are protesting positions that no one has asserted.

I made comment on what was said. If he meant something different he should have spoken differently.

peace

 

[Rightglory]

Sawdust,

He didn't speak of participation. He said it was "solely man's responsibility to save himself or lose himself". As the context was salvation from sin, he errs considerably.

It is always understood as participation. But nevertheless, it depends solely, completely on man's faith. Whether we exercise it, whether we increase it, remain faithful. Man is the sole deciding factor in whether he/she will be soul saved. God may do all the work with Us, He even doing most of it, but nothing gets done UNLESS man believes and is faithful with his faith.

Both the punishment for sin and the salvation unto life from sin is in Christ. There is absolutely nothing we can do to overcome sin and the death that comes from it, it is in Christ.

But all mankind recieves this gift. This is why man cannot save himself. that is why Christ is needed. But relative to our spiritual connection or the purpose of our existance which is to be in union with God is all about man choosing. Christ's work reversed the fall, so man could do what he was created to do. Christ did not save your soul on the Cross.
You have the Work of Christ confused with what man was created to do, not what Christ was going to take over from man. He restored that ability to man.

It is God's choice to make salvation "in Christ". It is our choice to believe it or not.

But believing requries, following, enduring, being faithful. It is the salvation of your soul. It is a mutual, synergistic, covenental agreement between you and God. Christ did not do this on the Cross for you.

When anyone thinks that our words can be trustworthy enough to be given as promises, then they really ought to think again. I don't make promises to people let alone God. "let your yes be yes and your no be no." (I can't find the reference)

That is the whole point of the error of your view. You take God's promises to man and assign the as man's. God is not the problem. Man is the problem here. My statement about promises of man, is that YOU CANNOT FIND ANY which is the sinking of your whole theory of not being able to fall from salvation. When the saving of ones souls is all man's responsibility and he was created to be free in that choice and obedience, man can surely fall from grace. The Bible is full of examples and statement, clearly, explicitedly stating and warning that it can and does happen. Yet, you say man cannot fall from Grace. Then I asked the rhetorical question, find me a promise anywhere that man can make as finite as Christ's promises to man. It is a mutual relationship, after all. Both parties have obligations. God will keep His, but what about YOU. That is the question.

made comment on what was said. If he meant something different he should have spoken differently.

I meant exactly what I stated. You just did not read it correctly, nor interpret it correctly because you do not follow what the Bible says regarding Christ's work and the response, or work of man in a mutual relationship.

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,

You have it going in the wrong direction. If we are IN Him there is no darkness. Hell does not mean we are IN HIM. However, Christ is the Light of the World. Is the World dark or those whose choose not to be IN Him.

"Hell does not mean we are IN HIM"??? What is this??? Where did I infer that???

I don't have it going in the wrong direction unless you are Buddhist. Are you a Buddhist?

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

God is Light. In Him there is no darkness. Where darkness is, He isn't there. If He were, darkness would be dispelled. Hell is darkness.

Here is your original statment. READ carefully, "In Him there is no darkness". the darkness is in ones soul. One who is NOT in Christ. Christ can be in hell, as He is in the World, He is Light but one must accept Him. the problem which is the root meaning of hell is that those there cannot respond to that Light. That is hell. the Same darkness they had in this life when they were not IN Him. It is also called spritual separation or death.

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,


Here is your original statment. READ carefully, "In Him there is no darkness". the darkness is in ones soul. One who is NOT in Christ. Christ can be in hell, as He is in the World, He is Light but one must accept Him. the problem which is the root meaning of hell is that those there cannot respond to that Light. That is hell. the Same darkness they had in this life when they were not IN Him. It is also called spritual separation or death.

"Poppycock!" If Christ could be in Hell, Hell would be displaced by His presence. You apparently have little to no understanding of the glory of God that speaks of sin not standing in His presence.

Many righteous in the OT didn't know Him to "accept" Him. Jesus came to explain Himself to the living, die and set the righteous dead free from the grave [not torment]that held them. Where was the darkness in their souls as they awaited deliverance, hmm?

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

["Poppycock!" If Christ could be in Hell, Hell would be displaced by His presence. You apparently have little to no understanding of the glory of God that speaks of sin not standing in His presence.

But hell does not have sin. Mankind is raised incorruptible, immortal. Hell is just that. God's love showering upon man as a fire which is how they will percieve it, but cannot respond to it.
Nothing can separate us, mankind, from the love of God.
It is all about how we percieve that love, warmth, or pain. It is the same as it is in this life of those who prefer the darkness in a world filled with Light.

 

[Ormly]

Ormly,

But hell does not have sin. Mankind is raised incorruptible, immortal. Hell is just that.

Is just what? Don't split hairs with me. Hell is where
'sin" went and was destroyed and simply by virtue of the fact it was of those who went there, never having it dealt with in their lives while in the land of the living.

God's love showering upon man as a fire which is how they will percieve it, but cannot respond to it.

Again, "Poppycock". Where do you find that written in the Bible?

Nothing can separate us, mankind, from the love of God.

There is no love in Hell. God is love. Hell is where God isn't. Hell will separate man from God and that by his own choice. Learn that and begin to understand the Bible and the severity of rejecting Christ.

It is all about how we percieve that love, warmth, or pain. It is the same as it is in this life of those who prefer the darkness in a world filled with Light.

That is a lie from hell. Obviously you must be some sort of universalist or cult.

 

[GenemZ]

Again, "Poppycock". Where do you find that written in the Bible?

Does it matter? What matters, is will it will sound good to the ears of some, so someone can have a following. A following of those not wanting truth, but something esoteric in thinking to scratch their itching ears.

Some men are raised up with such a purpose. Biblical science fiction. Or... Philosophical speculation- sensation.

So? What does it matter what the Bible tells us? Not all care to really know.

God's love showering upon man as a fire which is how they will percieve it, but cannot respond to it.

Sounds so exciting! Doesn't it?


To put it simply.. Some people do not want the truth. They want to be entertained by playing with the truth.

Truth is.. the fire of the Lake of Fire will be a never ending, constant torment.

God's love is never torment.

1 Corinthians 13:4a (New International Version)
"Love is patient, love is kind."
​

Some (I guess) must confuse God's 'wrath' for 'love' ?

Revelation 14:10 (New International Version)
"He, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."




​

But, the other way sounds so much better. No?






.

 

[Rightglory]

Ormly,

Is just what? Don't split hairs with me. Hell is where
'sin" went and was destroyed and simply by virtue of the fact it was of those who went there, never having it dealt with in their lives while in the land of the living.

Sin cannot go anywhere. It is a parasite, a disease of man. It is of the flesh of man which dies. It is the ONLY reason we die once, physically in our existance to rid the body of sin. So when mankind is raised at the last day, we all will be raised incorruptible, immortal. Christ the Judge will then separate those who spiritually, not physically have either been IN Christ, or rejected Christ. Those who rejected Christ will be separated spiritually from God, not physically. It is impossible for God to be separated from His creation, surely His creature, man. We live and move and have our being through His Grace. In hell mankind is still a creature.

Again, "Poppycock". Where do you find that written in the Bible?

it takes more than just prooftexting to understand the Bible. Matt 5:22, Psa 68:2-3, Rev 14:9-10, Psa 97:1-5, all through the Bible fire is used as a metaphor.
Amazing, is it not, that despite how "Biblical" one says they are, that they only believe that which is in the Bible, nothing more and nothing less, just how much our preconcieved concepts and ideas can limit our understanding, and even seem to miss verses that speak quite clearly to the issue.
We have not, due to God's great mercy and patience with us sinners, experienced the full presence of God because He knows most of us cannot yet handle it. Judgement day is coming into His presence fully, "face to face" and as the above verses show, for the unrighteous it will not be a pleasant experience. God's presence is with us, but it is hidden from us to give us time. This is why no one has seen a form of God other than Jesus Christ. This is why Adam and Eve, after they sinned, hid from God because they could not endure His presence whereas before they walked openly with Him.
God loved the world, including all sinners. When does it ever say that God stopped loving sinners. They are His creatures, they all bear His Image. God does not change, but man's perception of Him changes. His Love becomes wrath for those who desire to shun it, to remove themselves from its light and warmth.
Here is what St. John Maximovich had to say about it:
"'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds.
Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgment, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself. This fire will be kindled within a man; seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left.
"The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears: 'Come unto Me, ye blessed.' And conversely: the same words will call the fire of horror
and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime!

There is no love in Hell. God is love. Hell is where God isn't. Hell will separate man from God and that by his own choice. Learn that and begin to understand the Bible and the severity of rejecting Christ.

But the separation is spiritual, not physical. Rom 8:38-39.

That is a lie from hell. Obviously you must be some sort of universalist or cult.

Hardly, but a Christian who has accepted and believed the Gospel once given and how it has always been understood. It is not of my own making, or my own personal perception or theory, as you have persistantly put forth.

It is unfortunate that "western Christianity" has been so greatly influenced by Augustine, Anselm, Abelard, and Aquinas. Their concept is of a God that seeks revenge, who seeks satisfaction, seeks punishment, rather than a God of Love. That God seems ruled and controlled by some higher, more powerful force than Himself to which He is obligated.
God must uphold His created order, which is done by His Grace and Love. Creation does not exist apart from God or have it own necessity. If God withdrew His Grace, everything would cease to exist and return to nothingness. Can darkness cause blindness. Hardly, but Light causes man to become blind. Thus Hell, part of His created order can never be devoid of God. He is everywhere present. But man can be separated spiritually from God because they did not desire Him in this life and God simply permits them to have their desire for an eternity.
Just something the think about.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Some (I guess) must confuse God's 'wrath' for 'love' ?

Only those who hate Him. Have you ever read anywhere that God is Wrath?

But, the other way sounds so much better. No?

Just like man, He always want to blame God for his problems and predicament. But it is Man who perceives love as wrath, hell on earth is but a foretaste of the eternal hell fire.

 

[Ormly]

Rightglory wrote;

Quote: Ormly


Is just what? Don't split hairs with me. Hell is where
'sin" went and was destroyed and simply by virtue of the fact it was of those who went there, never having it dealt with in their lives while in the land of the living.

Rightglory:
Sin cannot go anywhere. It is a parasite, a disease of man. It is of the flesh of man which dies.

And if it doesn't die it is cast into hell remaining encased in that one, cursing God. Can it be plainer than that?

 

[Ben johnson]

If love may be compelled by biology or psychology, I wonder why the continued assertion that love can't be compelled in return. =shrug=

"You shall love the Lord your God."

Yet, "Predestined-Election" (Reformed Theology), asserts that love IS "compelled". By God sovereignly regenerating the herats of a few "elect", loving Him and believing in Him is then the irresistible consequence of His sovereign choice.

"Love", is therefore HIS decision. This violates the essence of love, stated in verses like 1Cor13:5: "Love does not DEMAND (zeteo) its own way".

What's the penalty for rejecting God in the Law? Would that be a coercive penalty?

How can a just God impose a penalty for rejecting God, when man is incapable of doing anything ELSE (without God's sovereign act)?

I find the argument itself doesn't really carry. But then, outside that issue, I don't think these things undergo the force of compulsion for those who believe.

You're not perceiving that love which consequents from God's sovereign election/regeneration, is "compulsion". What's the difference from what I've described of your position (sovereign election and regeneration, and therefore irresistible love), from "compulsion"?

So -- no dog in this fight, it just seems to me the argument that love is utterly free of compulsion isn't really the case -- Scripturally or experientially.

When we are commanded to love Him, it's fully optional.

...just as everyone is commanded to repent (Acts17:30), our response is optional.

That's the nature of "love"...

 

[Ben johnson]

He didn't speak of participation. He said it was "solely man's responsibility to save himself or lose himself". As the context was salvation from sin, he errs considerably.

The saving, is all of God and nothing of us; but becoming saved, is solely man's responsibility. There's no way to deny Paul's words: "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourself..." 1Tim4:16

It conflicts when you apply such passages to salvation from death (due to sin), both physical and spiritual. Christ bore that death in his own body. He also received life in His body. Both the punishment for sin and the salvation unto life from sin is in Christ. There is absolutely nothing we can do to overcome sin and the death that comes from it, it is in Christ. We either believe that or we don't. If we believe, we are entered into that salvation. And there is no correspondence entered into... He died, we die. He lives, we live.... end of story.

That is correct; yet, "in Christ", is changeable. That's the warning to "abide", to "take care", to "be diligent". 2Cor13:5, 2Pet1:5-10, 1Tim4:16, 2Jn1:7-9, 1Jn2:26-28, Jude20-21, and many many more.

It is God's choice to make salvation "in Christ". It is our choice to believe it or not.

Correct; and those who believe, are in Christ (and He in them). Yet as Paul says in 2Tim2:11-13, if WE are faithless, then HE denies us before God.

Context asserts we then will not reign with Him. (Are not saved.)

I have no idea why you even raise this sort of issue. It makes absolutely no difference whether a person chooses to believe or refuses to believe, salvation has been wrought in Christ, fullstop.

No, it hasn't; it all begins with "faith". That's why verses like Rom1:17 say God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith.

There is no point telling someone to "believe in Jesus" if they have no idea what actually occured between the Father and the Son at the point of the Cross. When they can understand what Christ did on that Cross and realise (believe) "it is finished", then they are free to get on with the business of living and start taking responsibility for the real issue in a Christian's walk and that is in overcoming evil, the corruption that is in this world. Now, this salvation, Christ did not die for but the grace that is needed for us to overcome is found in Him and the truth of His word.

I agree. That's why we teach the truth of the Gospel.

It is this salvation (from evil) that most Christians will never actualise in their life on this earth.

Sawdust, a "Christian" who does not realize the dynamics of salvation, isn't really saved, is he?

They will remain like ignorant babes pushed around by anyone who wants to take advantage of them. They will be unstable in their thinking, forever chasing "rainbows" and wondering why they never get a "pot of gold". The abundant life Christ came to give is only realised through perseverance in growing up in the knowledge of the truth. The Word is the truth.

Exactly that; further, it is "CHRIST IN YOU".

If Christ is in someone, how can he or she NOT "grow to maturity in Christ"? Impossible.

This is why I like the "pregnant" analogy; a woman either IS pregnant, or is NOT --- likewise, we either ARE saved, or are NOT. There is no "in-between"...

We have the Son, or we do not; it begins with conscious faith, and persists with continual faith.