Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

sawdust,
All souls went to Hades. And your are right, the Lord freed those held captive, but one of them would not have been Saul. Read the context of that verse and you get a whole different picture of Sauls relatinship with God. I don't think we can assume that Saul is in Heaven. If so, then most people would be in heaven as well, including Stalin.

That was a leap.

Saul even prophesied at one point. Did, Stalin?

1 Samuel 10:10-12 (New International Version)
​

"When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying. When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, "What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?"


A man who lived there answered, "And who is their father?" So it became a saying: "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
​

Your version of God? Really picks the wrong ones for the gift of prophesy. Imagine? God giving an unbeliever the gift of prophesy?





You really have a lot to learn... to grow beyond your present very limited view of who and what God saves. Sinners!




If we were not sinners? We would not need to be saved. Now, would we?



Its those who think they are naturally holy by nature, who have the hardest time getting over this hurdle. For they confuse morality with being made declared holy, by God's justice. They think they are holy because of what they can do for God. Again, we have the pharisee syndrome.




Some of us were sinners, tax collectors and prostitutes before we got saved. Some were moralistic pharisees. Those who equate morality with acceptability to God, confuse the issue in salvation, and make a very basic level of the spiritual walk, into the zenith goal for their lives. Yet, they shall be last, not first if they persist in their error of thinking.

Matthew 5:20 (New International Version)
​

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
​

The pharisees thought they were saved by the merits of their good works and religious morality. Many were not even saved. Some were. But, just the same... They were not righteous in God's eyes!









In Christ, GeneZ












.

 

[Rightglory]

A Brother In Christ,

Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first and the first last: for many be called but few chosen

But there is nothing here to indicate that believers were chosen to be believers.
God calls all men to repentance. If we believe we become one of the elect, one of the chosen. That is all that verse is saying.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you!

He is speaking about and to the disciples. God choses many believers for special tasks. There is nothing unusual about that. But you still have not shown that anyone is either predestined to be a believer.

Romans 8:28-30 , heb 1:14

Romans text clearly shows that those that love Him, those that believed would be predestined to be conformed to His Image. Since He calls all men, obviously those that believe were called, those that believe,repent, are baptised, He justified and will given them the Holy Spirit. Those He justified, and remain justified, will also be glorified. I see nothing here to show that any person is predestined to be a believer. Faith, by faith is the ONLY way one can enter into Christ. We even remain there through our faith.
And just how does Heb 1:14 even address the topic of discussion?

romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That is describing man in an isolated state. Man is never without God. God set His rules in man's conscience from the beginning. Rom 21:18-23. NO man will have an excuse. God calls all men to himself. Why do you think God calls all men?

God come to us.... some to destruction other to glory ... romans 9:20-24

the whole context of Rom 9-11 is not even addressing the salvation of our souls. It is addressing the saving work of Christ on the Cross, who He would save. Paul eventually gets to the bottom line which is in Rom 11:32. ALL.
You are simply prooftexting. Picking and chosing words really that you think could be used to support some presupposition. You fail to take into the context of the verse and the context of the whole of scripture.

which ones does the Holy Spirit work on?

ONLY unbelievers.

the unsaved elect Heb 1:14

there are no unsaved elect. The elect are all those that believe. And it is they that the angels and Spirits are working with to remain faithful so they will inherit the promise.

the ones who God the Father chose in the beginning eph 1:4

Tehre is not from the beginning in Eph 1:4. It that God chose those IN Christ to be conformed to His Image, to be made holy and blameless. One must first be IN Christ before one is of the chosen. And it is then that He

and put His seed in them to be born when God ordains it ... 1 jn 3:9

There is nothing in I John 3:9 that address anything being ordains. It is simply saying that those born of God, which is regeneration which is the result of faith, repentance and baptism, that we begin a new relationship with Christ. A relationship that man can break, can leave, and forfeit his salvation, his inheritance that awaits those who are faithful.

all man kind ? john 8:24 states that if one does not believe that Jesus is God who died for their sin ... they are still in their sin of unbelief

Yes, He calls all men without exception. ALL men will give an account of their relationship with God. Many have turned down that call and will suffer eternal consequences, hell. It is all about believing and every man can freely choose. There is not law, no ordinance, no decree that precludes man freely choosing whom He will serve. That is what God has ordained.

there are three different tenses of salvation
Intial ... God ordained
Present tense... for believers to use the truth to have a relationship with God... if not God love will come with a form of discipline
Future salvation.. 1 jn 3:2-3, titus 2:13-14

God ordained that Christ would redeem the world so that God and man could continue or renew the relationship intended by our creation and enjoyed by Adam before the fall. But Adam was not decreed to fall. Adam freely chose to fall, to sin, in spite of the warning of death if He did. We have the same freedom, we have the same warning and the spiritual death will be the consequence if we do not either join with Christ or remain with Him in this life.
The second part, that is believers are being saved in this life through their faith. If they are faithful they will inherit the promise for an eternity. God will discipline, but man is able and does reject God's discipline as well.
However, you have not shown that scripture overrules man's ability to freely choose whom He will serve. You have not shown that there is any kind of ordaing or predestination of anyone to be a believer.

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

That was a leap.
Saul even prophesied at one point. Did, Stalin?

Where is the leap. I thought you had made a monsterous leap based on what scripture states about Saul and what we know and understand about the concept of Hades.
Did Stalin prophesy? Probably not, but is that a necessity of being saved? Stalin grew up in a Christian home with Christian parents. Attended Church all during his youth, was an alter boy for many years. But then came Marx in his college days and Stalin forsook God and the Church. A very good example of a beleiver no longer being a believer, just like Saul. They are really alike in many ways.

You really have a lot to learn... to grow beyond your present very limited view of who and what God saves. Sinners!

God saved every sinner that will ever live. But that is not the topic here either. The topic is man's reponse to that salvation from death and sin. Man enters into a union freely and can depart as can be vividly seen in Saul and Stalin. I think you are the one who needs to re-examine how anyone is saved, whether by Christ or by a personal relationship with Him.

If we were not sinners? We would not need to be saved. Now, would we?

But that's why Chrsit saved everyone. All were sinners, all were consigned to disobedience through Adam. But God had mercy on all, Rom 11:32. Christ is the Savior of the world, not just some human beings. If He truly desires all men to come to know Him and be in union with Him by and through faith, then God of necessity needs to redeem mankind, otherwise some would still be under the condemnation of Adam which is death, dust to dust.

Its those who think they are naturally holy by nature, who have the hardest time getting over this hurdle. For they confuse morality with being made declared holy, by God's justice. They think they are holy because of what they can do for God. Again, we have the pharisee syndrome.

Who claims one is holy by nature? I don't think I have ever heard anyone make that statment? First no believer is declared holy either. We become holy and we move from glory to glory through the synergistic efforts of the Holy Spirit and the believer. But all that work stops if man desires to leave Christ.

The pharisees thought they were saved by the merits of their good works and religious morality. Many were not even saved. Some were. But, just the same... They were not righteous in God's eyes!

But you are making the same mistake as those Pharisees. They were not speaking of their soul salvation, but the salvation that Christ, the Messiah would perform. They were under the impression that the Jews would be the ones, since they were the favored nation. But Paul quickly puts that to rest when He makes the bold statment that it does not depend on nationality but on faith. It is the Spiritual Jew that will be saved. This is all part of that discourse in Rom 9-11.

 

[Hismessenger]

When you gain a deeper understanding of the word you will see that there are many who were given salvation but ultimately forfeited it.

You must understand that the redemption of Israel from Egypt represents the salvation of man from the world. They were in essence, saved because they called upon God and he heard their cry.

Then once he had removed their bondage, they sought to have things their own way. Even though They were bought with a price. That price was the death of the first born of Egypt as Christ became the first born of the church for us. Because God loves all of His creation, it hurt Him to have to take the lives but He doesn't have a fatalist mind set. What He has created, He can also renew.

Subsequently, their complaining cost them their salvation. What does salvation mean, to be saved from the wrath of God which will fall on all the unGodly. It comes with a simple condition and that condition is that you rest in Christ and walk by faith that He has done what He was sent to do. To cover, not remove our sins, and this He did with His own blood.

hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

A Brother In Christ,

But there is nothing here to indicate that believers were chosen to be believers.
God calls all men to repentance. If we believe we become one of the elect, one of the chosen. That is all that verse is saying.
He is speaking about and to the disciples. God choses many believers for special tasks. There is nothing unusual about that. But you still have not shown that anyone is either predestined to be a believer.
Romans text clearly shows that those that love Him, those that believed would be predestined to be conformed to His Image. Since He calls all men, obviously those that believe were called, those that believe,repent, are baptised, He justified and will given them the Holy Spirit. Those He justified, and remain justified, will also be glorified. I see nothing here to show that any person is predestined to be a believer. Faith, by faith is the ONLY way one can enter into Christ. We even remain there through our faith.
And just how does Heb 1:14 even address the topic of discussion?

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salavation ....... election

That is describing man in an isolated state. Man is never without God. God set His rules in man's conscience from the beginning. Rom 21:18-23. NO man will have an excuse. God calls all men to himself. Why do you think God calls all men?
the whole context of Rom 9-11 is not even addressing the salvation of our souls. It is addressing the saving work of Christ on the Cross, who He would save. Paul eventually gets to the bottom line which is in Rom 11:32. ALL.
You are simply prooftexting. Picking and chosing words really that you think could be used to support some presupposition. You fail to take into the context of the verse and the context of the whole of scripture.

attacking me with out verses....

ONLY unbelievers.

Holy Spirit deals with the elect saved[baptising.. 1 cor 12:12-13,regeneration ...gal 3:2-5, sealing ... eph 1:13, filling... eph 5:18, restaining... 2 thes 2:1-12] and unsaved [heb 1:14, john 16:7-11]

there are no unsaved elect. The elect are all those that believe. And it is they that the angels and Spirits are working with to remain faithful so they will inherit the promise.

read the verses again... above

Tehre is not from the beginning in Eph 1:4. It that God chose those IN Christ to be conformed to His Image, to be made holy and blameless. One must first be IN Christ before one is of the chosen.

john 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come unto the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light[jn 1:4]; because their deeds were evil!

And it is then that He
There is nothing in I John 3:9 that address anything being ordains. It is simply saying that those born of God, which is regeneration which is the result of faith, repentance and baptism, that we begin a new relationship with Christ. A relationship that man can break, can leave, and forfeit his salvation, his inheritance that awaits those who are faithful.

so are salvation is not by grace but by works.... please read eph 2:8

Yes, He calls all men without exception. ALL men will give an account of their relationship with God. Many have turned down that call and will suffer eternal consequences, hell. It is all about believing and every man can freely choose. There is not law, no ordinance, no decree that precludes man freely choosing whom He will serve. That is what God has ordained.
God ordained that Christ would redeem the world so that God and man could continue or renew the relationship intended by our creation and enjoyed by Adam before the fall. But Adam was not decreed to fall. Adam freely chose to fall, to sin, in spite of the warning of death if He did. We have the same freedom, we have the same warning and the spiritual death will be the consequence if we do not either join with Christ or remain with Him in this life.
The second part, that is believers are being saved in this life through their faith. If they are faithful they will inherit the promise for an eternity. God will discipline, but man is able and does reject God's discipline as well.
However, you have not shown that scripture overrules man's ability to freely choose whom He will serve. You have not shown that there is any kind of ordaing or predestination of anyone to be a believer.

God give us the credit for His work.... john 6:29 === grace

 

[GenemZ]

genez,

Where is the leap. I thought you had made a monsterous leap based on what scripture states about Saul and what we know and understand about the concept of Hades.

Did Stalin prophesy? Probably not, but is that a necessity of being saved? Stalin grew up in a Christian home with Christian parents. Attended Church all during his youth, was an alter boy for many years. But then came Marx in his college days and Stalin forsook God and the Church. A very good example of a beleiver no longer being a believer, just like Saul. They are really alike in many ways.

Put me in a garage? Do I become a car?

Likewise? Be born into a Christian family?

Made to attend (religiously) church and its programs because of the environment one was born into?

Does that make Stalin regenerate?

Some of the worst enemies to Christianity have been born into Christian homes and attended a church as they grew up. For they know the system, but they do not know the life. In the same way, some of the most religious people come from Christian homes.

Christianity is not a religion. When its right? Its a living vibrant spiritual relationship with God the Father, through Christ.

Now..

King Saul prophesied. Did he not?

Don't you understand what that means? The Holy Spirit came upon him for him to do that. You are saying that God will pour his Holy Spirit on an unbeliever to prophesy? On someone he says is unclean?

Those who prophesy by the Holy Spirit? Can be unbelievers? :o

And.. Samuel did not say only Saul would be with him the next day. He also said that Saul's spiritual son, Jonathan, would be as well. Jonathan was not believer?

Religion will never comprehend SALVATION as long as one clings to religion..

If it could?

The person would stop being religious.




In Christ, GeneZ





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[Rightglory]

A Brother IN Christ,

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salavation ....... election

but where does it say that believers were elected to be believers, that is the point of this discussion. those that believe are surely heirs, and it is the faithfulness of our lives, living IN Christ that will inherit the promise.

Holy Spirit deals with the elect saved[baptising.. 1 cor 12:12-13,regeneration ...gal 3:2-5, sealing ... eph 1:13, filling... eph 5:18, restaining... 2 thes 2:1-12]

Yes, but all this happens by faith. Not election or predestination. All this work is done to those who are the elect, who have believed.

and unsaved [heb 1:14, john 16:7-11]

Hebrews is speaking of those that have believed, they are being saved, they shall inherit the promise IF they remain faithful.
John 16:7-11 is referencing the calling of the Holy Spirit which will be poured out upon all flesh, Acts 2:18. The whole purpose is to convict the world of sin, to call all men to repentance, to call all to believe.

there are no unsaved elect. The elect are all those that believe. And it is they that the angels and Spirits are working with to remain faithful so they will inherit the promise.
read the verses again... above

Reading the full context does not change anythiing. It is referencing the elect, those that are being saved which they entered by faith. They are now working with the Holy Spirit to endure that journey to the end, through faith and will inherit the promise at the end.

my statement:..Tehre is not from the beginning in Eph 1:4. It that God chose those IN Christ to be conformed to His Image, to be made holy and blameless. One must first be IN Christ before one is of the chosen.
Your response:...
john 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come unto the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light[jn 1:4]; because their deeds were evil!

What has your response here to do with the topic and what I had stated?

so are salvation is not by grace but by works.... please read eph 2:8

First, all of salvation is of grace from beginning to end.
But the salvation refered to in vs 5 is that of Christ on the Cross, the saving of mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Paul wants to make a transition which is why the text is in parentheses, and then states in vs 8 that believers because they are part of the larger salvation of Christ in vs 5 are also saved through faith. It is all a Gift, man can do nothing apart from God. It is referencing believers again. the salvation of beleivers is all about works as opposed to the salvation of Christ on the Cross. Eph 2:10 points that out quite dramatically.

God give us the credit for His work.... john 6:29 === grace

Hardly, He is working, calling, persuading, influencing any person to believe. That is what the Holy Spirit does to every man. It does not say however, that the believer is predestined to believe. God would not need to work to that end, if it was already preordained. It would effectively annul the reason why God created man, and why Christ came to free mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

 

[GenemZ]

A Brother IN Christ,

but where does it say that believers were elected to be believers, that is the point of this discussion. those that believe are surely heirs, and it is the faithfulness of our lives, living IN Christ that will inherit the promise.

From out of all men that God knew would believe? Knew, because he is omniscient? We have been elected to be the Bride of Christ. Not to be believers.

Its a common error to read that we have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, to mean we have been chosen to believe.

We have been chosen out from all souls that God knew would believe, to become the Son's Bride. Not all who God's knows would believe have been chosen to be the Bride. They were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God chose some to be Israel. God chose others for other functions in eternity.



.

 

[sawdust]

sawdust,
All souls went to Hades. And your are right, the Lord freed those held captive, but one of them would not have been Saul. Read the context of that verse and you get a whole different picture of Sauls relatinship with God. I don't think we can assume that Saul is in Heaven. If so, then most people would be in heaven as well, including Stalin.

The context is: Samuel says to Saul "tomorrow you will be with me".

The writing is plain. Saul and Samuel were in the same place.

I don't have have to assume Saul is in heaven. The scripture states plainly he is. You seem to want to make the Lord double-minded. He sends His own to the place of the righteous but when He comes to collect them He starts picking and choosing? Why? He got it wrong the first time? Had a change of heart about Saul when it came time to get him? You seem to be the one doing the assuming here because the thought of someone like Saul in heaven irks you. If angels rejoice over one saved sinner, how much more should we.

As for comparing Stalin and Saul? Can you show me anything to conclude Stalin had a relationship with God? I can show you plenty in regards to Saul to say he had a relationship. It started well, didn't end that way though.

peace

 

[GenemZ]

You seem to want to make the Lord double-minded. He sends His own to the place of the righteous but when He comes to collect them He starts picking and choosing? Why? He got it wrong the first time?

You didn't know? God is not omniscient!

That, he 'guesses' who to save?

(Some here, sure make it sound that way...)

"Eeenie, meenie, mieney, mo!
If he sins once too much?
I will let him GO! "​

Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

 

[sawdust]

You didn't know? God is not omniscient!

That, he 'guesses' who to save?

(Some here, sure make it sound that way...)

"Eeenie, meenie, mieney, mo!
If he sins once too much?
I will let him GO! "​

Grace and peace, GeneZ




.

I like the ditty.

peace

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

Does that make Stalin regenerate?

That is probably why you are having such a difficult time understanding salvation of ones soul.
the biblical definition of a believer is one who has been baptised into the Kingdom. That is the sine quo non of being a believer. It has been understood this way from the teachings of the Apostles and is supported by Scripture. Stalin was a baptised member of the Church. But he did fall away.

Some of the worst enemies to Christianity have been born into Christian homes and attended a church as they grew up.

reality is much better than theory. Now you have your proof that a "born again" person, a baptised member can and do fall away from Christ. All the false teachers in Christianity were believers. But then Paul warned us about them already in scripture. History proved him correct. History and experience and reality also show that a believer can forfeit their soul.

Don't you understand what that means? The Holy Spirit came upon him for him to do that. You are saying that God will pour his Holy Spirit on an unbeliever to prophesy? On someone he says is unclean?

Maybe you could explain it better with Adam. God was with Adam also, He walked and talked with Adam, yet Adam fell away from that union. Sounds like typical human beings only we have the proclivity to do it because we possess a fallen nature, Adam did not. Yet you think we cannot fall.

Religion will never comprehend SALVATION as long as one clings to religion..

so, why are you clinging to your personal religion. Why not accept what the Bible teaches rather than impose your presuppositions and interpretations upon it?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salavation ....... election attacking me with out verses.... Holy Spirit deals with the elect saved[baptising.. 1 cor 12:12-13,regeneration ...gal 3:2-5, sealing ... eph 1:13, filling... eph 5:18, restaining... 2 thes 2:1-12] and unsaved [heb 1:14, john 16:7-11] read the verses again... above john 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come unto the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light[jn 1:4]; because their deeds were evil! so are salvation is not by grace but by works.... please read eph 2:8

God give us the credit for His work.... john 6:29 === grace

A Brother IN Christ,

but where does it say that believers were elected to be believers,

Since the ministering spirit are ministering to unbelievers who shall be heirs.... known quanity

that is the point of this discussion. those that believe are surely heirs, and it is the faithfulness of our lives, living IN Christ that will inherit the promise.

your statement remind me of Romans 4:2-5 Then God owes us because of a debt not grace... god forbid

Yes, but all this happens by faith. Not election or predestination. All this work is done to those who are the elect, who have believed.

what unsaved person will inherit salvation ... election future... heb 1:14

Hebrews is speaking of those that have believed, they are being saved, they shall inherit the promise IF they remain faithful.
John 16:7-11 is referencing the calling of the Holy Spirit which will be poured out upon all flesh, Acts 2:18. The whole purpose is to convict the world of sin, to call all men to repentance, to call all to believe.

acts 2:17 is it the last days.... vs 20 sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood? this has not happened yet! Isa 24:23 end of the Great Trib!

Reading the full context does not change anythiing. It is referencing the elect, those that are being saved which they entered by faith. They are now working with the Holy Spirit to endure that journey to the end, through faith and will inherit the promise at the end.
What has your response here to do with the topic and what I had stated?
First, all of salvation is of grace from beginning to end.
But the salvation refered to in vs 5 is that of Christ on the Cross, the saving of mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Paul wants to make a transition which is why the text is in parentheses, and then states in vs 8 that believers because they are part of the larger salvation of Christ in vs 5 are also saved through faith. It is all a Gift, man can do nothing apart from God. It is referencing believers again. the salvation of beleivers is all about works as opposed to the salvation of Christ on the Cross. Eph 2:10 points that out quite dramatically.
Hardly, He is working, calling, persuading, influencing any person to believe. That is what the Holy Spirit does to every man.

every believer not every man .. rev 20:11-15

It does not say however, that the believer is predestined to believe. God would not need to work to that end, if it was already preordained. It would effectively annul the reason why God created man, and why Christ came to free mankind from the bondage to death and sin.

romans 8:29-34
He predestinated
He called [to salvation]
then He justified
then glorified

all God's work ... jn 1:13

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

From out of all men that God knew would believe? Knew, because he is omniscient? We have been elected to be the Bride of Christ. Not to be believers.

What has foreknowledge got to do with anything. No one is saying God does not foreknow. We have been elected because we are the elect by faith. We became believers through the work of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, God calling all men to repentance. Those that believe would be IN Christ and THEY would recieve special benefits which is described in scripture. One must of necessity be a believer and enter HIS Kingdom, to be part of the Bride of Christ.
But that is also not the topic.

Its a common error to read that we have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, to mean we have been chosen to believe.

I already know that, but maybe you could futher explain to A Brother In Christ.

We have been chosen out from all souls that God knew would believe,

Now, I may have spoken to early. This is a direct contradiction to what you just stated above. God did not choose us because He knew we would believe. He chose us because we are believers, and He knows who they will be.

Not all who God's knows would believe have been chosen to be the Bride.

So God is not really omnicient after all? All those that believe and are faithful, those that recieve the promise, the inheritance will be part of the Body, called the Bride of Christ. No exceptions.

They were not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. God chose some to be Israel. God chose others for other functions in eternity.

Now that is a twist I have never heard before. What scripture might lead you to so think?

 

[Rightglory]

sawdust,

The writing is plain. Saul and Samuel were in the same place.

Yes, and all souls went to Hades, Ghenna, Sheol.

I don't have have to assume Saul is in heaven. The scripture states plainly he is.

If so, them most of the wicked world will be also as God said to Saul,
I Sam 28:3-7. Because of Sauls great wickedness God is no longer responding to His prayers. Hardly a saved man, I would think.
Not only that He then asked for a medium the Medium of Endor. A regression here, because he had earlier established them in Isreal and God asked him to slay all of them.
Then verses 15-19 hardly gives an indication of even a repentant person.
Where does it say that we are saved and separated from God.
I think you are grossly misinterpreting the Word of God and the relationship that Saul no longer had with God.

He sends His own to the place of the righteous but when He comes to collect them He starts picking and choosing?

Maybe you should do a study of Hades, Sheol and Ghenna in the OT.

As for comparing Stalin and Saul? Can you show me anything to conclude Stalin had a relationship with God? I can show you plenty in regards to Saul to say he had a relationship. It started well, didn't end that way though.

Now you say it did not end well. Kinda contradictory. Any relationship with God that ends means that person is not saved. It does not mean he did not possess salvation at one point in his life. Any believer who falls possessed salvation, that is what he forfeits when he departs the Kingdom, the Body, being IN Christ, being a believer. He becomes an unbeliever and they do not see heaven.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,

That is probably why you are having such a difficult time understanding salvation of ones soul.
the biblical definition of a believer is one who has been baptised into the Kingdom. That is the sine quo non of being a believer. It has been understood this way from the teachings of the Apostles and is supported by Scripture. Stalin was a baptised member of the Church. But he did fall away.

You are giving me your church dogma?

Are you saying that infant baptism makes one a Christian?


In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[nobdysfool]

You have to wonder about a church that would claim Stalin as a member.....

 

[Rightglory]

genez,

You are giving me your church dogma?

yes, the dogma established and taught by the Apostles and witnessed by untold Christians for centuries and no man has changed it. Can you say the same for your interpretation. Does it have authentic historical witness as being the Gospel once given?

Are you saying that infant baptism makes one a Christian?

It makes him a member of the Body of Christ.

 

[Rightglory]

nobdysfool,

you have to wonder about a church that would claim Stalin as a member.....

So you are not claiming then that you are a member of the Body of Christ? If you make the claim that you are, then you and he were and are members at one time. Now it still remains IF you will remain, we know that both Saul and Stalin did not, as far as we know.

 

[GenemZ]

genez,

yes, the dogma established and taught by the Apostles and witnessed by untold Christians for centuries and no man has changed it. Can you say the same for your interpretation. Does it have authentic historical witness as being the Gospel once given?
It makes him a member of the Body of Christ.

That was an affirmative?

You are stating that infant Baptism enters one into salvation. That, that was taught by the Apostles. Right?

Just trying to be sure what you are saying here.


In Christ, GeneZ



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