Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[GenemZ]

Genez,

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I have stated it several times already. This verse is totally, completely inapplicable to the context of the OP.

The OP is dealing with the fact that can or can we not lose faith, thus salvation in this life. The fact is we can and many do. Scripture is full of examples and warnings for believers to be on guard against falling out of Christ.

The verse you are using ONLY pertains to those who did endure, who were faithful to the end. The problem is that we are not perfect even as believers, faithful believers. The works we did in life that were not good, will be burned up. It is a purification that a beleiver goes through.

The problem you do not recognize is that if a believer falls from Christ, he is an unbeliever. Unbelievers are not purified before they enter hell. That is why the text is not applicable to the discussion.

The topic is about the movement of believers relative to faith during their lives. Not about those that do endure to the end.

I totally disagree. And, for that reason, I believe you and I can never agree. For both of us can not be filled with the Spirit, and it would take the Holy Spirit to see the truth.

Therefore, if I am not the one filled with the Holy Spirit? You will keep wasting your time on me. For to keep trying would mean that you think you can do a better job than the Holy Spirit. That would become audacity if you persist.

So, for the benefit of your spiritual life,. I am dropping out of this thread with you. For, it would take the Holy Spirit to reveal to me the truth. I know you have tried. But, the Holy Spirit is not getting through to me.

John 16:13a (New International Version)
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."
​

Pray for me that God can reach me, so I can learn that I can lose my salvation before its too late, and not know I lost my salvation.

Please pray that all the verses I showed you that make it look impossible for me to lose my salvation will stop deceiving me to believe that God saved me completely and with competence of his omniscience.

Does your church have a web page? I would need to learn what you have before its too late. For I am afraid that if I do not know I can lose my salvation, that I might lose my salvation because of it.

John 10:27 (New American Standard Bible)
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."




​

Thank you...


In Christ (maybe) GeneZ




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[GenemZ]

"Want" is something about which we must be diligent. Look at Heb3; we are warned not to "harden ourselves", warned to "take care lest we be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God". Clearly stated we are "partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

Then follows in the next chapter (4:11), another warning towards "diligence" --- that we not FALL and fail to enter God's rest, by imitating the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief."

Do you know what God's rest is, sir?

One can not know God's rest if he is always striving to keep his salvation. Can he?

You most likely been preaching this same teaching of yours for year after year. I learned about eternal security right after I was saved, and rested more and more as Scripture made it clearer and clearer.

As for the passages you always use? They made no sense to me if Jesus says one thing, and then he says the opposite. It made no sense to me that the Bible says one thing, and then says the opposite.

It makes no sense that the passages that reveal we can not lose our salvation are pretty plain to see, yet the ones that are used to make it appear that we can lose our salvation were always undefined as to what they were actually speaking of.


Your mental attitude has an affinity towards wanting to believe you can lose your salvation. Because? You want to believe you are the one who ultimately can save yourself. That your salvation is up to you, not the Lord. That's what it works out to, even though you may not like how that sounds.




Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."


Yet? You believe its by our works that we can undo what God has wrought. That our works are greater than Gods ultimately. I think this is why some find the belief that they can lose their salvation to be attractive to their soul. For it places more importance on self in salvation, than the one who provided salvation (sort of).

You might not like how what I say sounds to you. But that is exactly how you come across to me. That you believe its up to you to save yourself. You resent the fact that you have no say in your salvation from the Lake of Fire. But, for some reason, do not find it appealing that you do have a say in the matter of receiving rewards or not. It comes across as if you are saying. "I own myself! Not God! I decide if I go to Hell or not!" (again, you may not like how that sounds, but that is exactly how you come across to me).

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (New International Version)

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."


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So be it!







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[GenemZ]

Get it fixed!!!!!

 

[GenemZ]

"Want" is something about which we must be diligent. Look at Heb3; we are warned not to "harden ourselves", warned to "take care lest we be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God". Clearly stated we are "partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

Then follows in the next chapter (4:11), another warning towards "diligence" --- that we not FALL and fail to enter God's rest, by imitating the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief."

Do you know what God's rest is, sir?

One can not know God's rest if he is always striving to keep his salvation. Can he?

You most likely been preaching this same teaching of yours for year after year. I learned about eternal security right after I was saved, and rested more and more as Scripture made it clearer and clearer.

As for the passages you always use? They made no sense to me if Jesus says one thing, and then he says the opposite. It made no sense to me that the Bible says one thing, and then says the opposite.

It makes no sense that the passages that reveal we can not lose our salvation are pretty plain to see, yet the ones that are used to make it appear that we can lose our salvation were always undefined as to what they were actually speaking of.


Your mental attitude has an affinity towards wanting to believe you can lose your salvation. Because? You want to believe you are the one who ultimately can save yourself. That your salvation is up to you, not the Lord. That's what it works out to, even though you may not like how that sounds.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
​

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
​

Yet? You believe its by our works that we can undo what God has wrought? That our works are greater than God's ultimately?

I think this is why some find the belief that they can lose their salvation to be attractive to their soul. For it places more importance on self in salvation, than the one who provided salvation. I takes back one's sense of being one's own person.

You might not like how what I say sounds to you. But that is exactly how you come across to me. That you believe its up to you to save yourself. You appear to resent the fact that you have no say in your salvation from the Lake of Fire.

But, for some reason? on the other hand, do not find it appealing that God has given us some say. That being, we do have a say in the matter of receiving rewards or not.

It comes across as if you are saying...

"I own myself! Not God! I decide if I go to Hell or not!"
​

Again, you may not like how that sounds, but that is exactly how you come across to me.

But, you do not own yourself any longer.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (New International Version)

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."


​

God in his omniscience purchased something that he knew would become defective? Is God therefore truly omniscient?

The Father is going to give the Son a gift that the Son loves; that later will have to be taken away? You say yes.

I say we do not know the same God.



In Christ, GeneZ


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[Rightglory]

Genez,

I totally disagree. And, for that reason, I believe you and I can never agree. For both of us can not be filled with the Spirit, and it would take the Holy Spirit to see the truth.

that may be and you are certainly in your right and freedom to believe whatsoever you will. Since what I have explained has been the teaching for 2000 years on that verse and it has not changed. The Holy Spirit has preserved that Truth, teaching and has not permitted man to change it. On the other hand all you have shown is it is your personal opinion of what it means for you. It has no historical authentic witness to the Gospel Truth. If you can, then you might have some credibility that it is indeed the Holy Spirit guiding you to the Truth once given. But I can assure you, based on Scripture He is not giving you a whole new gospel with wholly different interpretation than it was given in the beginning.

Therefore, if I am not the one filled with the Holy Spirit? You will keep wasting your time on me. For to keep trying would mean that you think you can do a better job than the Holy Spirit. That would become audacity if you persist.

I don't depend on my ability to interpret when I don't need to. No Christian does. It was given at the beginning to the Apostles and they handed all teachings down and have since been handed down, and preserved by the Holy Spirit. I don't need to do better than the Holy Spirit, I just need to accept what He has preserved for me and all Christians, now and in the future.

So, for the benefit of your spiritual life,. I am dropping out of this thread with you. For, it would take the Holy Spirit to reveal to me the truth. I know you have tried. But, the Holy Spirit is not getting through to me.

that is an honest assessment and I will pray for you that you will see.

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."

He will guide you, as He did the first century Christians into the Truth once given. He is not giving new Truth. It was once given and then preserved by the Holy Spirit. Can you document your interpretation throughout the centuries as having been believed by all Christians tell today?

Does your church have a web page? I would need to learn what you have before its too late. For I am afraid that if I do not know I can lose my salvation, that I might lose my salvation because of it.

You can start with this private site http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html which has links to all of the Orthodox Churches in the world. It has links to many articles which may interest you.
I percieve the biggest problem you have is that you associate and asign God's promises as man's promises to God. You are not seeing that our relationship with Christ is a mutual, covenantal agreement that has obligations for each. God has given promises regarding His obligations. But have you given Him your finite promises, can you even make the same kind of promises guaranteeing your side of the relationship?
You are also confusing what Christ did on the Cross for mankind as the same as the salvation of ones soul. Christ did not save your soul from the Cross. He made it possible to again have a relationship with God as we were created to be in union for an eternity. Christ simply reversed the fall. He wanted the same type and freedom for each man that Adam had before the fall. The salvation of our souls is OUR responsibility. It is OUR obligation to make sure we desire to be IN Christ, in union and communion with Him and then to remain faithful to him.
It is all about works. We are saved through faith. The works and we were created to do them from the beginning. Eph 1:10.
these assumptions are borne out in the following statments you made to Ben...

God in his omniscience purchased something that he knew would become defective? Is God therefore truly omniscient?

He purchased every single human being, without exception from death. He was totally successful, he lost none to death. All men will be raised the last day. He saved you and everyone else because in His Mercy and love thought it better to permit you where you would spend eternity, than simply die, cease to exist through the condemnatioin of Adam. He wanted you to have the same life, same freedom of choice as Adam had for himself. thus in his justice, he took the condemnation of Adam away from every single human being, gave all an eternal existance but left the choice of which abode you wanted, heaven or hell. We live our lives on this earth as a test to endurance. Are we really serious and desious of living with Christ in eternity. If we are then we better be desirous to live our lives IN Him in this life as well.

The Father is going to give the Son a gift that the Son loves; that later will have to be taken away? You say yes.

He gave Him the universe. All things were reconciled to God through Christ. He will not only not lose any human beings but the world itself will not end in death.

 

[heymikey80]

"Thanatos", per Strong's Greek Lexicon, is "physical death with implication of eternity in Hell".

Oh, please. Update your lexicon. It means "death". It can sometimes mean death as a penalty. It's used of the death of Christ. You're not saying he's going to Hell are you?

The thief, repented; so did the Centurion.

The thief did nothing. Therefore, by your own view, the thief didn't truly repent. He didn't do any good works.

No opportunity.

Since you're asserting that everyone must do good works, your point is lost with the thief on the cross.

The view of "sinningly-saved", is in full conflict with all of Jesus' Gospel; Jesus came to destroy sin. He who sins, is a slave to sin --- so whom the Son sets free, is free indeed.

See?

Paul said in Rom6, we are EITHER slaves to sin, OR slaves to righteousness and God. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live in it?"

If we never come to agreement on "OSAS", I pray we can at least agree that we cannot walk in sin, while Jesus and the Spirit indwell us salvationally.

...for that would make them participators in our sin...

See last note.

If you'd like more, there's always making your theology survive all the verses of 1 John 1 & 2. At this point you'd need your theology to deal with:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
​

And ... watch the Greek tenses here, ok? Present tense.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

God the Father choses us.. eph 1:4
God the Father put his seed into are spirit .. 1 jn 3:9

Holy spirit coming along side and ministering.. heb 1:14, Jn 16:7-11

thank God that grace and faith is a gift from God .. eph 2:8

A Brother IN Christ.

He chose us IN Christ, and they are called elect and were predestined to be conformed to His Image. No place in Scipture nor has it ever meant that God chose us to be in Christ or chose anyone to be a believer. He chose believers to be conformed.

Matt 20...? God choses us... john 15:15 or 16 God choses us[ QUOTE]
The ONLY way to enter into Christ is by faith. There is no other way, at least not revealed to us in Scripture.[/QUOTE] which God give as a gift .... eph 2:8

But the devil works through the flesh. Therefore the war between the spirit of man and the flesh of man. The will of man is what decides which direction that person will go. God does not coerce, neither does Satan. Both are working in you to do the will of either. It is you who chooses. It was from the beginning, Read the story of Adam. Best example in scripture.

Not all man is saved

an unbeliever can only do things of the flesh
a believer can do both ....

ONLY so long as we desire, so long as we endure, so long as man is faithful to the will of God. Man's responsibility is to align his will with the will of God. That is the purpose of revelation, so that we might know what God's will is for man. If God is doing it all without man, man has no need for any revelation.

There is two differnt parts of salvation

Intial and future salvation ... God does
present tense salvation.... We have to do it the way God tells us .... other wise we will sin... 1 jn 1:8-10

God will do what God will do. But God wanted a creature that could freely return love, not force love. Man is free to move from faith to no faith. We are saved through our faith. God works in man through our faith. I Pet 1:3-5.

Present tense salvation

But neither is the gift mentioned in that verse. Salvation is the gift. All men have faith and grace, which is also a gift. Everything we get from God is a gift. It is kinda moot to even state it. We get nothin on our own. We are creatures after all.

1 cor 1:18-25
2 peter 3:18

 

[GenemZ]

Genez,
that may be and you are certainly in your right and freedom to believe whatsoever you will. Since what I have explained has been the teaching for 2000 years on that verse and it has not changed. The Holy Spirit has preserved that Truth, teaching and has not permitted man to change it.

Well.. That explains it. Why you think like you do.


Translation?


We, the (fill in your choice of name) church were never wrong. And, we are making sure that no one else will ever be wrong. It does not matter if we had a limited understanding at that time we made our proclamation. For, we have proclaimed ourselves to be infallible in such matters. So! All souls must bow to our thinking.

And, by the way... Ignore the following passage. (It became null and void the moment we gave our official proclamation).

Philippians 1:9 (New International Version)
​

"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."



​

Are we to bow to some conclusion made by some church, hundreds of years ago, that in some ways lacked maturity in understanding? And, we are to forget having any insight if it comes our way?


Is it to be a matter of? ...

"For! We have spoken!"
​

Is that the way we are to live?

Or?

Are we told in God's Word something quite different?

Acts 17:11 (New International Version)​

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
​

No church will not be holding your hand when you stand before our Lord and Savior to answer for how you lived.

We will be held accountable for our own thinking.

We will be held accountable to verify what we are told!

1 Thessalonians 5:21​

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
​

Yet?

You seem to believe you can free yourself from such a responsibility?

I could not do that, sir. For, I was brought up to think for myself. To be responsible for my own choices. By, the Word of God!

1 Thessalonians 5:21​

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."



​

In Christ, GeneZ





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[Ormly]

Does not matter. Jesus said that NO ONE will be able to do it. That includes the believer, himself!

Then it cannot not be love he seeks from man.

 

[Rightglory]

Genez,

We, the (fill in your choice of name) church were never wrong.

Since I am claiming Christ as Head of my Church and the Holy Spirit as the mover within the Body of Christ,. are you saying that Christ is wrong?
Where does it say in scripture that Christ gave you many options of how to be saved. From what I read in Scripture there is ONLY one way to be saved. The rules and perameters were set by Him and they have not changed. Or do you think that the Gospel needs to be upgraded, made more modern, more applicable to the current modern man who is much improved over those early Christians?

Are we to bow to some conclusion made by some church, hundreds of years ago, that in some ways lacked maturity in understanding?

so you think that the Apostles were immature, or that the Holy Spirit was immature when He gave All Truth to the Apostles?

Is it to be a matter of? ...
"For! We have spoken!"

the we is Christ along with the Holy Spirit. Do you doubt that they even spoke, or you just don't trust what they spoke? Why do you even believe the Bible then? How do you even know it is Apostolic if you don't trust the Apostles and the Holy Spirits ability to preserve His Body and His Gospel?

Are we told in God's Word something quite different?
Acts 17:11 (New International Version)
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Were told exactly what this text states, but that is not what you have even given a hint that you are doing. For if you had you would have known that what I stated was in fact what the Apostles had taught and the Holy Spirit has preserved over the last 2000 years.
Reading scripture and coming to your own interpretation is exactly the opposite of being a Berean. Read that section again in context. Did they develope their own opinion first in reading the OT or did they read in light of what Paul had stated.

No church will not be holding your hand when you stand before our Lord and Savior to answer for how you lived.
We will be held accountable for our own thinking.

I hardly think so. It will be more that He will hold you accountable for what He has given. It will have very little to do with your thinking. That is why He gave a ONE time Truth, to be diseminated for the whole Messianic Era. It is His thinking that you need to accept. What you think it should be, or what you think it might be, or worse what you would like it to be will not work with HIM.

You seem to believe you can free yourself from such a responsibility?

Your giving yourself an authority that you do not possess. That is the problem. I have learned that it is not I, or what I think, but what He commands of me. It is what He gave ONCE, for all, for all time, the same Gospel of the Early Church is the same Gospel for man today.

I could not do that, sir. For, I was brought up to think for myself. To be responsible for my own choices. By, the Word of God!

Think for yourself is your responsibility, But the thinking is do I do it my way, or do i accept what He gave. It is by His Word, not by my word. My interpretation is null and void, if it does not match what He gave and has preserved. You have not even shown that your view is even known by any Christians today and surely not for every century since the Gospel was originally given. That is the text of the Truth. Has it always been beleived and practiced as the Truth once given. False teachings come and go. Truth remains. Can you show that your view was actually taught by the Apostles?

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

We are to prove what we hear, read with what was given from the beginning. Proving it to your personal interpretation does absolutely nothing. That should be quite obvious to you with the hundreds of views, actually thousands of interpretations by folks all using the method you are espousing to arrive at your personal interpretation.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

1 cor 12:18-21....who i the head.. eph 1:22-23

 

[Rightglory]

A Brother In Christ,

Matt 20...? God choses us... john 15:15 or 16 God choses us

I read Matt 20 and there is no verse that even hints that Christ chose anyone to be believers. John 15:15 Jesus is speaking to the disciples. It is quite plain elsewhere that Christ chose His disciples but there is nothing here to indicate that Christ chose anyone to be a believer. Just because the word "chosen" or chose" is used, the context gives the meaning. You will find not a single text anywhere that says, Christ or God chose believers to be believers.

which God give as a gift .... eph 2:8

He gave all things to us as a gift. Nothing is from us or of us. I don't see how that is a support that Christ might have chose anyone to be a believer.

Not all man is saved

What stated that? That was the whole purpose of Christ coming into the world, to reconcile the world back to God. To remove the curse of the fall, death, from mankind. Just so each and every single human being, who is created in His Image would have the same free choice of who he/she would serve. That is God's justice. It is man that will either save himself or condemn himself respective of His soul. Christ saved all mankind from the bondage to death and sin and placed the responsibility squarely upon each and every single individual.

an unbeliever can only do things of the flesh
a believer can do both ....

God gives to every single human being the capability to respond to Him. Each individual will answer to God in the measure of theGrace each was given. An unbeliever can respond in faith. If not, there would be no believers whatsoever. It is whosoever, believes, and unbelievers are the only ones who need to believe. The Holy Spirit is working diligently upon all men to call all men to repentance. He is also using you and I as co-workers, as co-reconcilers in this world.

There is two differnt parts of salvation
Intial and future salvation ... God does
present tense salvation.... We have to do it the way God tells us .... other wise we will sin... 1 jn 1:8-10

You are right that there are two parts. One is the reconciling work, redemptive work of Christ on the Cross to reverse the fall. Once the fall is reversed mankind is able to have union and communion with God for an eternity and God is calling all to Him. We possess salvation of our souls in this life, it is our responsibility to respond to His call and once we do, to remain faithful. We are not forced, held, coerced in any way to remain. We are as free as Adam was in the beginning to fall from our union with Christ. He gives to each man his desire.

Present tense salvation

In this life it is ONLY present tense. We are constantly being saved from moment to moment. That is why it is so important to be on guard that we remain faithful. IF we depart, If we sin willingly and do not repent, we have removed ourselves from Christ. That is why that word 'believes" is always present tense, active. It is every on going faith. If it stops we are not longer being saved.

1 cor 1:18-25
2 peter 3:18

I have no idea just how you are interpreting these verses. I do not see how they support anything you have stated.

 

[sawdust]

Hi, Sawdust. would you mind helping me to understand how a modern-day-person can reject God, but not be condemned for it? Thanx in advance...

I wil elaborate on the above if first you explain to me how Saul, a believer in the Lord, could end up living the life he did yet still end up in Paradise.

And I hope you had a grand holiday!

I did thanks.

peace

 

[Rightglory]

sawdust,

I wil elaborate on the above if first you explain to me how Saul, a believer in the Lord, could end up living the life he did yet still end up in Paradise

Just where in Scripture does it actually say Saul is in Paradise?

 

[GenemZ]

Then it cannot not be love he seeks from man.

Oh... you are so wrong. They will love him very deeply for his mercy and grace! More than you will.

Luke 7:46-48 (New International Version)
"You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
​

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
​

Who will love the Lord more? The one who feels he has earned his salvation? Or, the one who knows he is truly forgiven and does not deserve it?







The Lord wants us all to know one thing. We can not secure, or earn, our own salvation. Some think they can.



The Pharisees thought they were more saved than anyone else. Jesus would not allow for them to remain in their bubble. They hated him for it. They thought they had earned their salvation. Jesus despised their evil.







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[Ormly]

Oh... you are so wrong. They will love him very deeply for his mercy and grace! More than you will.

One who is forced to love won't/can't feel that way. Nor could it ever be received by Him who seeks it as such. If you have childen you should realize that. So it isn't me who is wrong.

Luke 7:46-48 (New International Version)​

"You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." ​

​

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."​

Does not apply.

Who will love the Lord more? The one who feels he has earned his salvation? Or, the one who knows he is truly forgiven and does not deserve it?

I hear that often that the non-Clavinist believes such a thing, i.e., earned- deserved salvation. That's false and you need to understand that and move on in your argument. It also seems like your camp needs a reason to love Him. Sorry, but I don't know such people in my circles. Loving the Lord is of my/our freewill, as God ordained it must be. "If you will love Me", He sez. That is repeated by Him adnausm throughout the OT.

The Lord wants us all to know one thing. We can not secure, or earn, our own salvation. Some think they can.

Get over it. That is a lie from your pupit to make you feel good about yourself and how it is that God has "chosen" you simply because you are sitting there in a pew as evidence. That too, is false.

The Pharisees thought they were more saved than anyone else. Jesus would not allow for them to remain in their bubble. They hated him for it. They thought they had earned their salvation. Jesus despised their evil.

So what are you insinuating?









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[AndOne]

Oh... you are so wrong. They will love him very deeply for his mercy and grace! More than you will.

Luke 7:46-48 (New International Version)​

"You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." ​

​

Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."​

​

Who will love the Lord more? The one who feels he has earned his salvation? Or, the one who knows he is truly forgiven and does not deserve it?







The Lord wants us all to know one thing. We can not secure, or earn, our own salvation. Some think they can.



The Pharisees thought they were more saved than anyone else. Jesus would not allow for them to remain in their bubble. They hated him for it. They thought they had earned their salvation. Jesus despised their evil.







.

Awesom - truly awesome post!

 

[sawdust]

sawdust,

Just where in Scripture does it actually say Saul is in Paradise?

The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." 1Sam.28:19

Saul went down into the Paradise side of Sheol (same place as Samuel) where all the righteous waited until the Lord paid for our sins. These are the ones the Lord led out in Ephesians. They were the captives.

This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." Eph.4:8

peace

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Matt 20...? God choses us... john 15:15 or 16 God choses us[ QUOTE]
The ONLY way to enter into Christ is by faith. There is no other way, at least not revealed to us in Scripture.

which God give as a gift .... eph 2:8 Not all man is saved

an unbeliever can only do things of the flesh
a believer can do both .... There is two differnt parts of salvation

Intial and future salvation ... God does
present tense salvation.... We have to do it the way God tells us .... other wise we will sin... 1 jn 1:8-10 Present tense salvation

1 cor 1:18-25
2 peter 3:18[/quote]

A Brother In Christ,

I read Matt 20 and there is no verse that even hints that Christ chose anyone to be believers. John 15:15 Jesus is speaking to the disciples. It is quite plain elsewhere that Christ chose His disciples but there is nothing here to indicate that Christ chose anyone to be a believer. Just because the word "chosen" or chose" is used, the context gives the meaning. You will find not a single text anywhere that says, Christ or God chose believers to be believers.

Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first and the first last: for many be called but few chosen

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you!

Romans 8:28-30 , heb 1:14

He gave all things to us as a gift. Nothing is from us or of us. I don't see how that is a support that Christ might have chose anyone to be a believer.
What stated that? That was the whole purpose of Christ coming into the world, to reconcile the world back to God. To remove the curse of the fall, death, from mankind. Just so each and every single human being, who is created in His Image would have the same free choice of who he/she would serve. That is God's justice. It is man that will either save himself or condemn himself respective of His soul. Christ saved all mankind from the bondage to death and sin and placed the responsibility squarely upon each and every single individual.
God gives to every single human being the capability to respond to Him. Each individual will answer to God in the measure of theGrace each was given.

romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God come to us.... some to destruction other to glory ... romans 9:20-24

An unbeliever can respond in faith. If not, there would be no believers whatsoever. It is whosoever, believes, and unbelievers are the only ones who need to believe. The Holy Spirit is working diligently upon all men to call all men to repentance.

which ones does the Holy Spirit work on? the unsaved elect Heb 1:14 the ones who God the Father chose in the beginning eph 1:4 and put His seed in them to be born when God ordains it ... 1 jn 3:9

He is also using you and I as co-workers, as co-reconcilers in this world.
You are right that there are two parts. One is the reconciling work, redemptive work of Christ on the Cross to reverse the fall. Once the fall is reversed mankind is able to have union and communion with God for an eternity and God is calling all to Him.

all man kind ? john 8:24 states that if one does not believe that Jesus is God who died for their sin ... they are still in their sin of unbelief

We possess salvation of our souls in this life, it is our responsibility to respond to His call and once we do, to remain faithful. We are not forced, held, coerced in any way to remain. We are as free as Adam was in the beginning to fall from our union with Christ. He gives to each man his desire.
In this life it is ONLY present tense. We are constantly being saved from moment to moment. That is why it is so important to be on guard that we remain faithful. IF we depart, If we sin willingly and do not repent, we have removed ourselves from Christ. That is why that word 'believes" is always present tense, active. It is every on going faith. If it stops we are not longer being saved.
I have no idea just how you are interpreting these verses. I do not see how they support anything you have stated.

I like how you ask and not attack in your questions!

there are three different tenses of salvation

Intial ... God ordained
Present tense... for believers to use the truth to have a relationship with God... if not God love will come with a form of discipline
Future salvation.. 1 jn 3:2-3, titus 2:13-14

 

[Rightglory]

sawdust,

Saul went down into the Paradise side of Sheol (same place as Samuel) where all the righteous waited until the Lord paid for our sins. These are the ones the Lord led out in Ephesians. They were the captives.

All souls went to Hades. And your are right, the Lord freed those held captive, but one of them would not have been Saul. Read the context of that verse and you get a whole different picture of Sauls relatinship with God. I don't think we can assume that Saul is in Heaven. If so, then most people would be in heaven as well, including Stalin.