What impact did the FALL of Adam have ?

[nobdysfool]

Applies to you as well, friend. There's plenty of it going on here, from all sides. No one is exempt. I never claimed that I was, only that I am going to attempt to rise above it.

 

[Ormly]

Applies to you as well, friend. There's plenty of it going on here, from all sides. No one is exempt. I never claimed that I was, only that I am going to attempt to rise above it.

Do so and you will rise above the turf you own.

 

[nobdysfool]

Whatever.....

 

[vekarppe]

Communication is communication, whether it be words, cries, or whatever.

But we were talking about lying.

 

[Ormly]

exactly

 

[nobdysfool]

But we were talking about lying.

And lies cannot be communicated by crying?

 

[vekarppe]

And lies cannot be communicated by crying?

Lying is someting that's done [SIZE=-1]on a conscious level, [/SIZE]with deliberate intent to deceive. We cannot lie unconsciously. So regardless of whether lies can be communicated by crying, the nature of lying implies that an infants aren't capable of do it. It will take some years before children know the difference between telling the truth and lying, and before they realize that it's wrong to lie.

 

[Akathist]

Thread closed for staff review and for a cool down.

Stick to the topic and use the pm system for personal comments back and forth please.

 

[Miracle Storm]

Opening.
Thread has been cleaned.
Please stick to the topic and no personal attacks.

thanks.

 

[beloved57]

oyl says

Sorry amigo. You are the one making the claim, that babies are guilty of Adam`s sin plus sinners coming out of the womb. The burden of proof is on you,

babies die at birth some of them dont they ? adams sin brought about physical death..

 

[Oye11]

oyl says



babies die at birth some of them dont they ? adams sin brought about physical death..

Sharing in consequence is not the same thing as sharing in guilt. A crack baby shares in the consquence of her mother`s drug abuse but is in no way guilty of the sin. If a fool pollutes a stream those using the water source suffer for it but only one is held accountable for the sin. We all experience the guilt and ultimate judgment for our own sins, no one else`s. Take note of the personal pronouns.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16-27
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Romans 2-6
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corithians 5-10
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Revelation 20-13

 

[beloved57]

Sharing in consequence is not the same thing as sharing in guilt. A crack baby shares in the consquence of her mother`s drug abuse but is in no way guilty of the sin.

sure it is thats why the baby was born a sinner , just because its a crack baby that just highlights a particular disease of sin..besides there are plenty of babies born to crackhead mothers who never addicted to crack but they still are sinners..

The baby arent suffering the consequences of adams sin, they are suffering the consequences of their own sin in adam all the elect sinned in adam thats why the scripture reads:

rom 3

23For all have sinned[babies too], and come short of the glory of God;

God choose to hold every single person accountable in adam as though they sinned...babies sinned in adam they cannot change Gods calculation and niether can you,,

Furthermore , though you will deny scriptur,e cause I see from your post that you create your own theories..God plainly declares that babies [ in His estimation] come out the womb speaking lies..

ps 58 3

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

job 14

1Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.

It does not take long for the curruption of the human heart is manifested...

You cannot see as God sees and yet you reject his light from his word about human nature..

 

[Oye11]

Sharing in consequence is not the same thing as sharing in guilt. A crack baby shares in the consquence of her mother`s drug abuse but is in no way guilty of the sin.

sure it is thats why the baby was born a sinner , just because its a crack baby that just highlights a particular disease of sin..besides there are plenty of babies born to crackhead mothers who never addicted to crack but they still are sinners..

The baby arent suffering the consequences of adams sin, they are suffering the consequences of their own sin in adam all the elect sinned in adam thats why the scripture reads:

rom 3

23For all have sinned[babies too], and come short of the glory of God;

God choose to hold every single person accountable in adam as though they sinned...babies sinned in adam they cannot change Gods calculation and niether can you,,

Furthermore , though you will deny scriptur,e cause I see from your post that you create your own theories..God plainly declares that babies [ in His estimation] come out the womb speaking lies..

ps 58 3

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

job 14

1Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.

It does not take long for the curruption of the human heart is manifested...

You cannot see as God sees and yet you reject his light from his word about human nature..

You are misinterpreting and applying the scriptures. Romans 3 offers a general, hyperbolic statement from the Psalmist. It is general in the same sense as this scripture and does not necessitate the inclusion of newborn infants.

"Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" Titus 1:12

There is no reason to give credibility to the notion of "lying by crying."

Sin is not a thing. it is not some impersonal substance or "disease." Such opens the door to excuse making. Sin is action that requires knowledge of law, either internal or through external dictates.


Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4-17

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3-4

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. Romans 2-15

And only Adam and Eve were in the garden sinning, not me, not you, not my neighbor`s newborn. Our sin we take upon ourselves and will thus be held accountable as the endless verses related to the final judgment confirm. There is no basis for calling anyone a "sinner" until they sin, no matter how many poetic O.T. statements from the Psalms, Job, or wherever you present out of context. Many of these in fact were refuted earlier in this thread so I hardly feel compelled to do so again, especially with the Christmas rush on.

 

[beloved57]

Sharing in consequence is not the same thing as sharing in guilt. A crack baby shares in the consquence of her mother`s drug abuse but is in no way guilty of the sin.

You are misinterpreting and applying the scriptures. Romans 3 offers a general, hyperbolic statement from the Psalmist. It is general in the same sense as this scripture and does not necessitate the inclusion of newborn infants.

"Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" Titus 1:12

There is no reason to give credibility to the notion of "lying by crying."

Sin is not a thing. It is an action that requires knowledge of law, either internal or through external dictates.


Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4-17

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3-4

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. Romans 2-15

And only Adam and Eve were in the garden sinning, not me, not you, not my neighbor`s newborn. Our sin we take upon ourselves and will thus be held accountable as the endless verses related the the final judgment confirm. There is no basis for calling anyone a "sinner" until they sin, no matter how many poetic O.T. statements from the Psalms, Job, or wherever you present out of context. Many of these in fact were refuted earlier in this thread so I hardly feel compelled to do so again, especially with the Christmas rush on.

Told you you dont believe the bible..

 

[JustAsIam77]

Some view mankind as a unity , a family , an organic living inter-dependant group , with the first man's actions and consequences carried through to the rest .

Others view the first man as nothing more than an individual , and everyone else as an individual , with no ongoing consequences by one man effecting the rest . They would say how Adam was in Eden , created good and upright with free-will is exactly how everyone is created ........ with no bias , no preference and no inclination towards sin. This would be the Pelagian arguement , no man needs God's Grace because he has been created just as Adam , perfect with a free-will.


but how does the scriptures portray man after the fall ?

Gen.6:5

"That the wickedness of man WAS GREAT on the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART was ONLY EVIL continually."

Ps.51:5

"Behold, I was shapen IN INIQUITY, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer.17:9

"The heart is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, and DESPERATELY WICKED."

Mark 7:21-22

"For from within, out of the heart of man , proceed EVIL THOUGHTS, ADULTERIES, FORNICATIONS, MURDERS, THEFTS, COVETOUSNESS, WICKEDNESS, DECEIT, LASCIVIOUSNESS, AN EVIL EYE, BLASPHEMY, PRIDE, FOOLISHNESS."

Rom.3:10-

"Is it is written (Ps.14 & 53), There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE: There is NONE THAT UNDERSTANDETH, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD..... there are NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE.... their Throat is an OPEN SEPULCHRE."

We are DEAD IN SIN, WICKED, EVIL, DECEITFUL, and are NOT SEEKING GOD or DOING GOOD. Sure, in mans eyes we may think we are seeking him and doing good, but in GOD's eyes we are as filthy rags. We do not do a single work that is thoroughly pleasing to God. Apart from God we can do nothing (John 15:4-5). Man does have free will, in a sense, but will ALWAYS CHOOSE AGAINST GOD because of his depraved nature.

John 6:44

"NO MAN can come to me EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me DRAW HIM.".

If it was my FREE WILL that caused me to turn to Christ, then somehow I am a little bit better than my unsaved neighbor. If I responded to the Gospel while my neighbor did not then I can receive a tiny bit of credit, even though I know that my salvation depends upon what Christ has done.

There are some Bible passages that apparently teach that we have FREE WILL, but those passages must agree with the rest of the Bible.

Rev. 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. 'IF' any man HEAR MY VOICE and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with Me."

Notice it says, "IF ANY MAN HEAR MY VOICE." Can a DEAD MAN HEAR the voice of God? That is what we are before we are saved, DEAD in SINS. God must give us the SPIRITUAL EARS if He is drawing us to Himself. Rev. 3:20 is not teaching free will in any way. If we have been given the SPIRITUAL EARS to hear, then we will respond. Is man's soul just a little sick or injured but nevertheless alive? NO! Man is DEAD IN SINS AND TRESPASSES!
[URL="http://www.norwich.net/~ickes/deprave.htm"]http://www.norwich.net/~ickes/deprave.htm[/URL]

I can find no reason to dispute your conclusion. We are wicked and filthy sinners from the get go because of Adam. We are indeed DEAD in our sins with NO hope of pardon, (justification), apart from Gods amazing GRACE thru Christ!

 

[cygnusx1]

I can find no reason to dispute your conclusion. We are wicked and filthy sinners from the get go because of Adam. We are indeed DEAD in our sins with NO hope of pardon, (justification), apart from Gods amazing GRACE thru Christ!

 

[cygnusx1]

if there is no such thing as collective inherited guilt "nations are called to repent " , then individualism wins the day , therefore there can be no such thing as inherited righteousness and all you have left is SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS .

 

[Ghost air]

We know that after the fall, man could still hear the voice of God.

 

[Ghost air]

We know that after the fall, man could still hear the voice of God.

..and not only that... but he could understand God's voice when he heard it.

 

[467AIR]

cygnusx1

First you condemn man’s nature which is really right on, for we as fallen creatures are so unrighteous. But then you refer to the non scriptural doctrine of freewill to by starting with a verse that is so contrary to man having a freewill (John 6:44) and then you try to justify your free will, then of course the golden nugget “then I can receive a tiny bit of credit”.

Let me start with your golden nugget. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God’s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. Being dead spiritually is so easy to understand. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual man is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God and all the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state.


"QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Then you refer to: “Rev. 3:20” which is clearly speaking to the church realm.

Rev. 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. 'IF' any man HEAR MY VOICE and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with Me."