What impact did the FALL of Adam have ?

[cygnusx1]

does God blame the innocent children for the sins of the guilty parents ?


NO!

Ez. 18

Does God view sinners as merely individuals or as a corporate being ? when Adam sinned did he sin alone or did he stand on behalf of and with mankind ?

Romans 5 shows corporate sin , there is no such thing as Adam standing on his own in God's eyes , rather he sinned and we sinned in him.This sin resulted in death for everyone because all sinned.Which can only be the case if Adam sinned as a federal head , a corporate being.


The bottom line is when scripture speaks of the "righteous" or the "innocent" these terms are used comparatively not implicitly , for there are none righteous , no not one (Romans 8)

the notion that God does not destroy the righteous with the wicked cannot be true from scripture and experience , in fact those who quote Ezekiel to show God does not punish the wicked and the righteous need to read the book again.

"Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem...and say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth My sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked." Ezekiel 21:1-3.

so much for innocence!

even in the Church individualism is not scriptural ;

“But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.” 1Corinthians 12:24-27

 

[Oye11]

Okay Cygy. Before you said that the guilt of Adam`s sin is imputed to his descendants, including infants. Such a notion is flatly inconsistent with this verse, no matter how many gyrations you perform here. That`s "the bottom line."

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." Exekiel 18-20


As is it "the bottom line" that you are again wrenching poetry out of context as Paul makes use of the Psalmist in Romans 3 to forward a rhetorical style. It has about as much credibility for declaring babies guilty of the sin of Adam as Psalms 51-5.

By the way, how would you interpret this statement from Paul? "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" Titus 1:12

Do you want to also interpret this statment as an absolute and include each person and the newborn babies on the island?

 

[nobdysfool]

By the way, how would you interpret this statement from Paul? "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons" Titus 1:12

Tit 1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Seems that Paul might have been agreeing with the prophet....

What do you think of that?

 

[Oye11]

Well, by all means, ignore me and lets read your "comeback". But I won't hold my breath waiting to read anything that has depth of knowledge.

Tit 1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Seems that Paul might have been agreeing with the prophet....

What do you think of that?

LOL! How many newborns have you seen tell a lie? You`ve found Calvinist theology books but have no understanding of the literary styles of the day. The statement is obviously general.

 

[nobdysfool]

You've never had kids, have you?

 

[Oye11]

You've never had kids, have you?

Do tell me about your newborn that lies. I`m anxiously awaiting....

 

[vekarppe]

The statement is obviously general.

Yea, it is.

"The ancients viewed human personality as determined by geography, generation, and gender. By and large, they did not judge people as individuals, but according to their ethnic or geographical group. What we would call stereotype, they would call and ethic character type." (Ben Witherington III)

 

[vekarppe]

Do tell me about your newborn that lies. I`m anxiously awaiting....

My newborns didn't even speak.

 

[Ormly]

Do tell me about your newborn that lies. I`m anxiously awaiting....

I didn't think you would receive anything of substance on this and you didn't. One never does with that crowd. You got the same ol same ol that always means, "I am in over my head".

 

[nobdysfool]

I didn't think you would receive anything of substance on this and you didn't. One never does with that crowd. You got the same ol same ol that always means, "I am in over my head".

As usual, wrong. The concept to keep in mind has to do with pearls.

but since it seems that some folks here have trouble getting it, I'll explain.

Newborns, and infants, are completely self-centered, and they will do whatever it takes to get attention, even acting as though they're in pain (crying and screaming) until someone picks them up. They learn this immediately. Anyone who has had children will know what I'm talking about.

Scripture says: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psa 58:3

I think it's laughable that some here want to make this "poetry" when it suits them, but other scriptures are to be taken absolutely literally, when it suits their purpose. Is not all mankind born wicked? If so, then this applies exactly as written. I am not aware of any scripture which states that only some of mankind is born wicked, inferring that some are not born wicked. Seeing that for mankind, one is either wicked or righteous, it's pretty plain that this scripture is not "poetry" with the attendant "poetic license", (i.e. exaggeration), but a clear statement of the actual condition of mankind with regard to birth.

Satisfied, Ormly?

 

[vekarppe]

nobdysfool, infants do not speak (lies). At least mine didn't.

 

[vekarppe]

Newborns, and infants, are completely self-centered, and they will do whatever it takes to get attention

Of course. We can call it "survival instinct" ... they don't wanna die.

 

[Oye11]

Newborns, and infants, are completely self-centered, and they will do whatever it takes to get attention, even acting as though they're in pain (crying and screaming) until someone picks them up. ?

Wow how judgmental of you.... Perhaps you should have never had kids. How horrible of this helpless newborn for seeking attention. Puppies do the same thing. Shame to shame....

Scripture says: The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psa 58:3

Okay, and we are still wating on you to tell us of your newborn that tells lies but hell will freeze over first. You all remind me of the Jehovah Witnesses using the Psalms to establish their theology of soul sleep... This verse is a hyperbolic lamentation.

I think it's laughable that some here want to make this "poetry" when it suits them, but other scriptures are to be taken absolutely literally, when it suits their purpose.?

It all depends on the context, historical, literary devices, etc. Something your predecessor Augustine paid little attention to at times as he brought his exhaustive determinist philosophy and looked for scriptures to hitch to it. It isn`t a matter of either/or, literal or figurative but the proper interpretation in each instance. And you are a hypocrite in the above statement as you want to take this verse literally against wisdom while taking others figuratively. Pot calling kettle black.

Is not all mankind born wicked?

Babies are not born sinners, nor do they come out of the womb speaking lies.... There is no such thing as the imputation of Adam`s guilt to his descendants, nor is there any sin substance passed along physically through sperm. These are imaginations based on faulty deductions. You have just sat as a sheep and been sold a bill of goods without ever investigating other views.

 

[nobdysfool]

nobdysfool, infants do not speak (lies). At least mine didn't.

Ok...where is it written that it must be intelligible speech, as in "words"?

 

[nobdysfool]

Wow how judgmental of you.... Perhaps you should have never had kids. How horrible of this helpless newborn for seeking attention. Puppies do the same thing. Shame to shame....



Okay, and we are still wating on you to tell us of your newborn that tells lies but hell will freeze over first. You all remind me of the Jehovah Witnesses using the Psalms to establish their theology of soul sleep... This verse is a hyperbolic lamentation.



It all depends on the context, historical, literary devices, etc. Something your predecessor Augustine paid little attention to at times as he brought his exhaustive determinist philosophy and looked for scriptures to hitch to it. It isn`t a matter of either/or, literal or figurative but the proper interpretation in each instance. And you are a hypocrite in the above statement as you want to take this verse literally against wisdom while taking others figuratively. Pot calling kettle black.






Babies are not born sinners, nor do they come out of the womb speaking lies.... There is no such thing as the imputation of Adam`s guilt to his descendants, nor is there any sin substance passed along physically through sperm. These are imaginations based on faulty deductions. You have just sat as a sheep and been sold a bill of goods without ever investigating other views.

So babies are born pure as the driven snow, eh? Innocent, and free from all stain of sin? Scripture, please.

 

[vekarppe]

Ok...where is it written that it must be intelligible speech, as in "words"?

Oh, here we go ... where it is written that it mustn't be...

 

[Oye11]

So babies are born pure as the driven snow, eh? Innocent, and free from all stain of sin? Scripture, please.

Sorry amigo. You are the one making the claim, that babies are guilty of Adam`s sin plus sinners coming out of the womb. The burden of proof is on you, and based on what you have offered so far, I think we should reject this teaching that found it`s way into the RCC in the 400s A.D. Isn`t it amazing how some doctrines many out of hand accept are based on forced evidence?

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh, here we go ... where it is written that it mustn't be...

Communication is communication, whether it be words, cries, or whatever.

 

[nobdysfool]

Classic. I`m saving this post...

Thank you for immortalizing me. I'm so honored....

 

[nobdysfool]

A list of scripture which support Calvinist view of Total Depravity:

Total Depravity (or Total Inability)[FONT=&quot] (1)
Spiritual Deadness
Genesis 2:16-17; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3; John 3:5-7; Romans 5:12; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13.

Darkened Minds and Corrupt Hearts
Genesis 6:5; Genesis 8:21; Ecclesiastes 9:3; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 4:17-19; Ephesians 5:8; Titus 1:15.

Bondage to Sin and Satan
John 8:34; John 8:44; Romans 6:20; Ephesians 2:1-2; 2 Timothy 2:25-26; Titus 3:3; 1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:19.

Universal Bondage
1 Kings 8:46; 2 Chronicles 6:36; Job 15:14-16; Psalm 130:3; Psalm 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Isaiah 53:6; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:9-12; James 3:2; James 3:8; 1 John 1:8; 1 John 1:10.

Inability to Change
Job 14:4; Jeremiah 23:13; Matthew 7:16-18; Matthew 12:33; John 6:44; John 6:65; Romans 11:35-36; 1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 4:7; 2 Corinthians 3:5.


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