By the way, to further stress this important point, the output of a conventional computer is inherently deterministic, in that input A will produce output B, whereas this is not the case with AI. The same input into two different prompts can produce divergent outputs.

peter2 said:

Hello Steve.
i feel the same for many things you say.
The main difference may generally be that in non traditional families, a certain permissiveness has been enforced as regards sex or, habits and customs, that didn't run in traditional ones.

Thence two consequences :
first,
Non traditional families thus combed their children in this sense that don't displease them.
They kept then their children' esteem, or "bought" thus their attachment, since traditional families taught theirs to wait for marrying, sex, etc..,
which might look like an abusive forbidding from these traditional families..

Second,
Young people don't learn patience and respect for the person of the other gender, since they already get what they had once to wait for.
They no longer learn effort to win the affection of their beloved, neither do they for work

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I think this general lack of respect for authority is a cultural phenomena and not something individuals or families have created. Its just how they were brought up within the culture. So by a couple of generations we can have a completely different worldview.

I see this as two competing worldviews about how the world and reality is ordered. One is based on Gods natural order and laws and the other is based on human made ideas.

Human made ideas make humans the gods and creators and the modern secular ideas about what is marriage, family and relationshios is a human made worldview that specifically is designed to deny Gods truth. Because ackowledging God means acknowledging His authority and natural order.

So ideas about how we should order ourselves as far as the natural family is about a belief. Two opposing and conflicting beliefs.

btw, I have son living and working in the District (temporary assignment)....so I have a personal interest in the district's public safety. At the same time, my son knows enough not to loiter on D.C.'s streets at 3 AM.

Where are the parents of these 15 year old juveniles?

It's the government's job to use our tax dollars responsibly.
I submit that diverting federal resources from multiple agencies (FBI, DEA, ATF and 12 other agencies) to address a carjacking in D.C. is NOT a responsible use of our tax dollars.

essentialsaltes said:

Six hundred and fifty-three.

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Great! . . .now that's settled. . .nothing to argue about it anymore.

BPPLEE said:

As many leaks as there are surely someone will link what’s in the files. My question is why hasn’t it already been leaked?

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Leaking files is a whole different thing. Just google all those who have real jail time for leaking files. It's not being a whistleblower or being a source of information to a reporter, which Trump once again as a problem with leaks. With that said, and as I have noted, there probably isn't really anything there for Trump to worry about. It's just the fact he doesn't want it publicized because his name is surely riddled throughout. The fact they are going through great lengths from constantly lying about it, providing doctored Epstein jail footage, to having secret meetings with DOJ, to moving Maxwell to a minimal security facilities serving time for the same kind of crime no one would be permitted. How many other pimps are there for sex trafficking young girls? Zero. It's Trump admin preferential treatment. Its like everything Trump does is a self inflicted gun shoot wound.

Clare73 said:

How many should get mugged before intervention is deemed necessary?

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Six hundred and fifty-three.

1Tonne said:

Haldane's Dilemma stands or falls on the math, not on what you think of Kent Hovind or me.

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That's just a dodge. I identified two fundamental flaws in the OP's argument that render the argument worthless. All you've done since is deflect and deny.

1Tonne said:

The core question is whether there's enough time, given mutation and fixation rates, to account for the observed genetic differences between humans and our supposed ancestors.

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That question was based on two fundamental errors, that each nucleotide difference requires its own individual mutation event and that each change has to selectively beneficial. Those are very, very wrong.

Also, how do you know what the genome of the LCA even was?

1Tonne said:

That question hasn't been convincingly answered across hundreds of posts.

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I'm confident you see it that way, but you're extremely biased on this subject. You've made it very clear that if evolution is true then your particular version of Christianity is wrong. That's why you refuse to acknowledge or even address most of the rebuttals you've received.

1Tonne said:

You’ve provided a helpful summary of the standard response: that neutral mutations, not adaptive ones, account for the majority of substitutions. But that doesn’t resolve Haldane’s original point, it sidesteps it. Haldane wasn’t quantifying neutral drift; he was quantifying the cost of adaptive substitutions, which do bear a reproductive cost and are necessary for the evolution of novel traits.

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That's just wrong, and in such a basic way it serves as another example of your bias. If the majority of the nucleotide differences between modern humans and the LCA are in non-functional portions of the genome and/or are functionally redundant, then the assumptions that the OP relies on are very, very wrong, which make the argument itself wrong.

Unfortunately your bias and the high stakes (for you) prevent you from admitting any of that.

1Tonne said:

The dilemma remains: how can a species acquire the number of adaptive changes required to explain major phenotypic transformations in the available evolutionary time? Saying ‘it’s only 1%’ doesn’t solve the math, it concedes the bottleneck.

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No it doesn't. You really don't think there's any statistical difference between all of the nucleotide changes having to be selectively beneficial and only 1% being so? You don't think going from 100% needing to be beneficial to only 1% being so makes any difference to the math?

Wow.

1Tonne said:

Hundreds of posts later, the core constraint still stands. The original challenge has not been mathematically overturned.

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That's just mindless denialism.

1Tonne said:

This has already been covered earlier in the thread. If you're going to post links, at least take the time to read the discussion first. I’m not repeating myself just because you couldn’t be bothered.

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Here you show more of your bias. Someone posted a link to a paper about the very subject you're trying to debate and rather than read it in good faith and see what it says, you make up a lame excuse to not even look at it. That shows you're not interested in the science or in learning anything, but instead are just here to mindlessly repeat a fundamentally flawed creationist talking point.

1Tonne said:

You’re proving my point. If the dilemma were truly resolved, it wouldn’t take over 300 posts, assumptions revised by orders of magnitude, and personal insults to defend it. If you think the thread hasn’t already addressed your paper, read it again, slowly this time.

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The reason there's 300 posts is because you absolutely refuse to acknowledge your basic mistakes, make up excuses to wave away pertinent information, and mindlessly deny much of what people post to you.

1Tonne said:

You raise creation up above God and give it the Glory for why we are here. So, yes, Christians who take the Glory away from God have issues, and yet they do not see it because in their own wisdom, they claim to be wise. (This is a sad thing, and I do feel for you. That is part of the reason I stay on these threads. In the hope that you may start to honour God. But sadly, I know that you will continue to mock what I say, even though it is written in scripture.)

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And there we have it. That's what this is really about and is why you keep repeating the same mistakes and waving away most of what's posted to you. This isn't about the science, it's about your belief that evolution takes away glory from God.

On that note, Amos teaches that God creates the mountains and wind but I don't think it takes away from His glory to acknowledge the existence of tectonics, volcanoes, temperature gradients, etc.

I hope you understand the point.

Valletta said:

Their own countries can take care of that.

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They don't have jurisdiction over crimes in the US.

Or any evidence.

wing2000 said:

I understand. Your town has a local police department yes?

DC has a police department and to date, no one in this thread has demonstrated the rational for invoking a "federal takeover."

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Nor is it our job to do so.

It is your job to demonstrate the error according to the law.

Tuur said:

My "home town" isn't under Federal management. DC is, and has been since it's creation. It has a mayor, a council, and other government that was set up by a literal act of congress, but still it's the Federal government's domain. If This is a problem, then perhaps there should be a constitutional amendment to abolish DC and let it become a regular city.

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Not to mention the issue of being in favor of "soft on crime."

Tuur said:

My "home town" isn't under Federal management. DC is, and has been since it's creation. It has a mayor, a council, and other government that was set up by a literal act of congress, but still it's the Federal government's domain. If This is a problem, then perhaps there should be a constitutional amendment to abolish DC and let it become a regular city.

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I understand. Your town has a local police department yes?

DC has a police department and to date, no one in this thread has demonstrated the rational for invoking a "federal takeover."

2PhiloVoid said:

I always hate it when someone tells me "its clear, its simple." It's really hermeneutically and critically not clear and simple.

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Whats one of the complications I'm missing here?

wing2000 said:

Should the feds take over your home town if someone is assaulted?

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My "home town" isn't under Federal management. DC is, and has been since it's creation. It has a mayor, a council, and other government that was set up by a literal act of congress, but still it's the Federal government's domain. If This is a problem, then perhaps there should be a constitutional amendment to abolish DC and let it become a regular city.

honey badger said:

.... ; because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

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I asked a tree once, what was in/a seed to him? ... after a life time of thought he replied, me ...

To recap:

From the police report:

"On Sunday, August 3, 2025, at approximately 3:00 a.m., the suspects approached the victims, who were standing next to their vehicle, in the 1400 block of Swann Street, Northwest. The suspects demanded the victim’s vehicle and then assaulted one of the victims. During the assault, an MPD cruiser pulled into the block causing the suspects to flee. Two of the suspects were apprehended by the on-scene officers. One of the victims was treated on scene by DC Fire and EMS for injuries sustained in the assault.

A 15-year-old juvenile male and a 15-year-old juvenile female, of Hyattsville, MD, were arrested and charged with Unarmed Carjacking."


And now Trump is diverting federal resources.....from multiple agencies.


The deployment, effective from Friday at 12:01 a.m., was expected to draw law enforcement officers from a wide swath of agencies across the federal government. They include: immigration police tasked with deportations, the F.B.I., U.S. marshals, the Drug Enforcement Administration and twelve other federal agencies.

It is unclear how many agents will be part of the surge and in what parts of the city. A statement from the White House said that the deployment “will be focused on high traffic tourist areas and other known hotspots,” a category that could be broadly interpreted to include much of the city.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/07/us/politics/trump-washington-dc-federal-police.html

wing2000 said:

Should the feds take over your home town if someone is assaulted?

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Quite revealing again. . .explains a lot. . .and makes my case.

keras said:

This is your problem; you say there will be a pre-trib rapture, when the scriptures never Prophecy such a thing.
Revelation 12:14 tells just who and how they will be kept from fiery trials to come. But the Christians who failed to trust in the Lords protection, will have to remain under the power of the 'beast'. Rev 12:17

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keras said:

This is your problem; you say there will be a pre-trib rapture, when the scriptures never Prophecy such a thing.
Revelation 12:14 tells just who and how they will be kept from fiery trials to come. But the Christians who failed to trust in the Lords protection, will have to remain under the power of the 'beast'. Rev 12:17

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Keras, the “fiery trial” you repeatedly cite is taken completely out of context from 1 Peter 4.

Here is 1 Peter 4:12-16 (ESV): 12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

Verses 12-14 describe the fiery trial. Verse 15 describes the behavior to avoid. Verse 16 confirms this chapter’s context is the day-to-day trials and tribulation of life as a Christian and as a disciple of Peter.

Valletta said:

“Michel Jordan Castellano Fonseca, a criminal illegal alien with ties to TDA, was released into our country by the Biden Administration in 2023. On Sunday, this monster shot two women, killing one, in front of five innocent children,” said Assistant Secretary Tricia McLaughlin. “Aurora, Colorado—a sanctuary city—has given cover to Tren de Aragua gang members to terrorize our communities."​

ICE Lodges Detainer for Venezuelan Tren de Aragua Affiliate Gang Member Charged in Killing of Woman in Sanctuary City of Aurora, Colorado | Homeland Security

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) lodged an arrest detainer against Michel Jordan Castellano Fonseca, a criminal illegal alien from Venezuela with ties to Tren de Aragua (TdA).

www.dhs.gov

How many more must die before people quit giving the criminals sanctuary?

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Sad if it's true. I mean after all, this is the Trump admin.

Clare73 said:

Non-responsive. . .

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Should the feds take over your home town if someone is assaulted?

Say it aint so said:

Yes. So let's review. Trump claimed he didn't know he was in the files. That was a lie because the DOJ told he was prior. It's reported of a meeting among the Trump admin featuring Vance and the DOJ to figure out a Epstein strategy. They said there is no meeting planned. They have that meeting the same night. So they lied about that. That's what I mean by this weird coverup.

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As many leaks as there are surely someone will link what’s in the files. My question is why hasn’t it already been leaked?

wing2000 said:

Is that a serious question?
1 person being mugged = a federal response?

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Non-responsive. . .and quite a revealing "dodge."

ozso said:

No! And you can't make me. Besides I haven't finished typing out the fake replacements.

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That is about the size of it. As if they would release anything that would show the self styled emperor in a bad light.

Brightfame52 said:

Do you understand the pitfalls outlined ?

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There are difficulties with either view, far less with unlimited atonement. And I don't believe in UR in the sense that all will be saved at the end, of course.

1. Universal redemption would make the blood of Christ of none effect. It says that the blood of Christ did not actually accomplish and secure anything, but only made certain things possible.

God's the Boss, and can choose, accordng to His wisdom and for man's highest good, to incorporate man's will into determining his eternal destiny, rather than just produce automatons which He could've done at the beginning, in which case, BTW, no sin, with all the suffering that resulted, would've occured and no revelation, no bible, no knowledge given to man, would've even been necessary- as God just does it all anyway in that senario, at least for some.

2. Universal redemption would destroy the love of God. It makes God’s love meaningless and changeable. Does God at one time love a man enough to slay his own Son for him and at another time hate that man enough to send him to hell?

Love is the highest good in the universe, the true measure of man's justice/righteousness and the nature of God, Himself. And love is, necessarily, a choice for man, both a gift and a choice. And yet love won't force itself upon us, or cause us to reciprocate; it requires freedom in order to exist. And love would never predestine anyone to hell but is patient and kind. "It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres" (1 Cor 13:7). It's "patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Pet 3:9).

3. Universal redemption would destroy the justice of God. Where is the justice of God if he can punish the same offense twice, once in Christ and again in the soul for whom Christ died?

The justice of God is revealed when He judges us on what we did with His redemption and the grace entailed in that, on how we've loved in return to put it best.

4. Universal redemption would destroy the wisdom of God, What wisdom can there be in God devising a plan to save every person in the world, when he knew that in the end that plan would fail?

The author left out a key component. God's wise plan, again, incorporates man's free response to grace, his yes" instead of "no".

5. Universal redemption would rob God of his glory in saving sinners. if, after all, it is my faith rather than Christ’s blood that redeems my soul, why should I give him the praise?

It's a cooperative effort, by His wise discretion. Man cannot possibly move himself to God; man is lost and wouldn't know where to look, sick and in need of being healed, dead and in need of being wakened. But he can still resist and reject being moved by God, being found, being healed, being raised. And it's a work in progress, man can still fail to remain in Him (John 15:5), he can fail to put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8:12-14), he can turn back away from God. He can turn out to be poor soil. So, of course we praise Him. We couldn't possibly do it apart from Him. In fact, "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). We're here to learn that vital fact, so that we might turn, and be healed, so that we might be grafted into the Vine. That union, entered into via faith, is salvation.

6. Universal redemption would make the death of Christ a vain thing. If one soul perishes for whom Christ died, to that extent he died in vain.

None could be saved without His death.

7. Universal redemption would provide a sinner with no motive to love and serve Christ. If he loved me no more than he loved Judas, why should I love him any more than Judas did? Why should I serve him?

What difference would it possibly make what Judas did? I found and chose the true treasure. I valued and responded to God's love, loving Him in return. I'd much rather know that God loves all rather than being caprious and whimsical regarding who He loves and who He saves.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Soon the will be fired or resign and then write a book about her dismal experience.

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That's the way these things normally play out.

"It the cover-up that always get you." - Richard Nixon