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Strong in Him · Sep 10, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
really?

The early church met in people's houses.

Larniavc · Sep 10, 2025

Chesterton said:
They say a tourist will get arrested for no reason, that it's dangerous to visit here, and that Americans are rude and unfriendly.

I find that hard to believe. Politeness and friendliness to strangers is a stand out trait for the Americans I have spent time with.

Strong in Him · Sep 10, 2025

concretecamper said:
If you want to blur the definition of worship to include being and living a Christian life,

Paul tells us to offer our bodies as a true and living sacrifice - which is our spiritual worship, Romans 12:1.
He says that whatever we do we should work at it with our whole hearts as working for the Lord, Colossians 3:23.
He said in 1 Corinthians 12 that Christians are the body of Christ, each with a role to play, and in Ephesians 4:11 that spiritual gifts are given to equip people for works of service and to edify the church.
Elsewhere he wrote that we should live a life that is worthy of our calling.
Jesus tells us to remain in him, the Vine, because without him we can do nothing, John 15:5.

Sounds like the NT writers very much accepted that serving God and living a good, Christian life was a form of worship.

sjastro · Sep 10, 2025

stevevw said:
This is what I can't understand. These vases have the signatures of modern precision parts which we make with modern tech because its impossible and rediculous to make them by hand. But still some want to force everything into the primitive tools no matter what and some magical ability of an artist to feel their way to perfection.

View attachment 369750 View attachment 369754
They actually seperate the precision hard stone vases on the opposite wall in a seperate case to show they have two completely different signatures and from different times. You only have to look at them to see the start difference. That they come from the earliest dynasties and even predynasty as Djsor inhereted them from an earlier stage is amazing for that time.

What nonsense are going on about now? All I see is a collection of vases of different sizes which is the stark difference.
Do you possess super vision and can discern micron level variations in an image??

This leads to my previous post.

There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Though I have a graduate history degree, I've largely given up on discussing history in this forum. I saw this thread when it was first posted, but didn't bother to watch the video. Now, because I was bored, I did. I'm not surprised by what he said. I'm not saying I agree with his specific...

www.christianforums.com

The naivety you display in blindly accepting the results from some youtuber's amateurish efforts when compared to mainstream science who have never been able to reproduce micron levels on their certified museum samples.

zoidar · Sep 10, 2025

A New Dawn said:
For the very first quote, from Clement of Rome, you conveniently left out that he said “ all are glorified and magnified by HIS will”. Not our own. And “but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. You conveniently left that part out. The part that he gives us the faith we are justified with.

And for Ignatius of Antioch, that is the core teaching of total depravity. THE. CORE. TEACHING. Since turning to God is a spiritual activity, then it is obvious that that is something a carnal man can’t do.

Let’s go on.

Justin Martyr was saying that prior to Christ (and his saving work in us) we were born sinners and there was no good thing in us and it was IMPOSSIBLE to understand or perform spiritual things and had no innate power to save himself or attain eternal life.

Irenaeus of Lyons you were close as far as you went, but you stopped just short of what he meant by what he was saying. And it was the same as Paul said in Romans , and as Justin Martyr said. That because of man’s fallen nature, they cannot choose spiritual things.

Lactantius said we were blind, in darkness, on prison, and ignorant of God and truth, and God enlightened us, adopted us and delivered us from evil bonds and gave us wisdom. He is saying God took them while they were still in the throes of sin and regenerated them.

Athanasius said that because the devil wrought sin from the beginning, it is impossible for us to restore ourselves to liberty. And without God it is impossible for us to be one with Him.

What I’m NOT seeing is any one of them saying that it is a mutual decision or that God is only helping us along the road to salvation. ALL of them are say that man’s depravity prevents them from, not just needing help along the way, but that we don’t even know God or anything good because our hearts are too deceitful.

We don’t need for you to put your own spin on something we can clearly read for ourselves.

Justin Martyr
“Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; that ‘we are born sinners;’ and that we are entirely flesh, and no good thing dwells in us; he asserts the weakness and disability of men either to understand or perform spiritual things, and denies that man, by the natural sharpness of his wit, can attain to the knowledge of divine things, or by any innate power in him save himself, and procure eternal life,” (Epist. ad Zenam, p. 506.).
“Having sometime before convinced us to of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save that which otherwise were impossible to be saved,” (Epist. ad Diognet. p. 500.)

The keypharse here is "save himself". I think that is what Justin is saying, on our own, by our natural ability it is impossible to be saved, but with the aid of the Holy Spirit we can respond. Justin contrasts "our nature" with "the savior", not "our nature" with "regeneration". So the point is clear, apart from Christ, mankind cannot be saved. So I see no total depravity here. It goes well with what Justin writes in other places.

So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, 'Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputes not sin;' that is, having repented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them.

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 125-142 (Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

David Lamb · Sep 10, 2025

Gregory Thompson said:
So deaf people cannot be saved?

God does not show favoritism, so any communication method okay for one is okay for all.

Of course deaf people can be saved. They can still have the hearing of faith, even if their physical ears don't work. They "hear" the gospel through reading, or through sign language, or lip-reading. Grace Baptist Mission in the UK supports a missionary who works specifically with deaf people.

Carl Emerson · Sep 10, 2025

May I have your attention for a moment? I write as a lay person with a deep concern for Christianity in the modern world.
I am inviting comment and reflection, maybe some will share my passion, some may disagree. However, let us review how we practically live out our Christianity in this age.
Where do I begin? Back in the mid 70’s I made a very conscious decision to refer to the Christian scripture as the last word on matters of faith and reality. I had experienced a prodigal’s return and building on my Christian roots was crucial to the journey back to normality.
It became clear to me early on, that pride in its various forms was a very basic trap, so I resolved to keep matters simple. It was clear to me that our God does not judge on the basis of intelligence therefore the truth had to be simple and understandable.
If the bible was indeed God’s roadmap for life then its understanding was not confined to the scholars, but rather the keys for understanding were available to all.

From my learning about Church history I found that repeatedly, when God impacted a whole society and there was wholesale repentance, everywhere bibles were being dusted off, as everyone intuitively knew that when things got serious with God, the bible was the place to look for understanding.
And so it is today, we are in need of a fresh visitation; our society is progressively and rapidly rejecting Christian values and truths.

But it is us I would like to talk about. Brothers and Sisters in Christ, how does our mode of living compare to the simple teachings of the scripture?
There is general agreement that wherever Jesus reigns the Kingdom of God is present.
God in Jesus was quite specific about how we should recognise this. He sent word to John, in order that these would be no doubt, “the blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.”

Now the reality is that these signs of the Kingdom are almost totally absent in New Zealand Christianity today yet these signs confirm the presence of Jesus.
What then has happened? This evidence of Jesus was clearly present in the early church but is noticeably absent in modern day Christianity for the most part.
I have to say that there are some simple reasons for this.
Those committed to our church work have become sophisticated and professional. They are generally well trained, talented individuals, able to lead, good managers, but are usually unfamiliar with the power of Jesus at work.

Why has this happened?
Looking back on the last thirty years, the times when Kingdom miracle signs have been evident in New Zealand certain conditions have been met.
Firstly there has been a God given unity among the believers involved.
Management and motivation were not predominant but simple Faith and Love was.
There was generally a lay ministry flowing, the believers would come together to share what God had done, there was a credible manifestation of Jesus in everyday life.
Being part of such an exciting experience meant that things of earth did grow strangely dim… we held onto our possessions more lightly, and there was supply for those who stepped out in God’s purpose without visible support.
The body of believers owned the vision which was planted in their hearts by Jesus rather than being sold by the leaders.
It seems that in the absence of God’s power we have built better programmes to compensate, become better organised so much so that it would be business as usual whether Jesus turns up or not.
Of course we have modified our theology to justify what isn’t happening, but this only masks the problem.
How then do we return to a vibrant biblical Christianity with conversion growth, and transformed lives? We need to return to the early church model clearly represented in the first Jerusalem Church (Acts 2:42-47), and the writings of Paul.
Start small with your close friends, read the scripture together and give God a blank page and room to move. Say less and pray more. Believe and act on the words of promise in the scripture. Confess your sin to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed…

Robban · Sep 10, 2025

Robban said:
Here is something strange, it is said the eyes are the window of the soul.

Viewing the whole of this image her eyes are as dark clouds,

Roll the picture to just above the eyebrows and eyes tell a different story.

Also maybe a diffrence in real life a picture is only a captured moment even so it is strange.

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

Douggg said:
Jesus does not know the day nor hour when God the Father will send Jesus to rapture the saints to heaven.

Differently, Marilyn in post #16 was giving her opinion of what time of the year (whatever year that may turn out to be) as being on the festival of lights, 29th of Kislev (equivalent to November-December).

I have no opinion what month. Maybe Jesus's return will coincide with the fall feasts in the bible.

Now Doug, we know that Jesus when on earth limited Himself, however, He is now at the right hand of the Father and one with Him in the Godhead.

To think that Jesus does not know when the Father will send Him negates, He knows when He has matured His Body and when the Father is bringing the nations to His feet for judgment, (Ps. 110: 1). In other words Jesus isn`t equal, in unity and of the same mind as the Godhead.

The Liturgist · Sep 10, 2025

RandyPNW said:
The contemporary sound of this Christian music has reached many people.

Has it, though? The banal lyrics lack the rich dogmatic foundation of the ancient Byzantine, Gregorian, Slavonic, Coptic, Syriac and Armenian hymns or the more recent Protestant chorales. it might have entertained some bored and disaffected Christians, like yourself, increasing morale, but it has completely alienated many others, including me, from the churches in which we were baptized, and many people remain alienated and unchurched, which I was for a time before connecting with Anglicanism and Orthodoxy.

Carl Emerson · Sep 10, 2025

In my first essay I spoke about returning to unity-based fellowship as a stepping stone to rediscovering the power of Jesus.
Today I have another issue for us to consider, the neglect of community in our modern Christian lives.

In the last seven decades I have seen the erosion of community in society in general. The corner store was squeezed out by the supermarket; the local urban cop is no more. We know few others in our streets these days. Spontaneous local support has been largely replaced by professional ‘care-givers’ A church elder once regularly visited every family in the parish. Nowadays the churches are often closed during the week and the needy soul no longer has access to a caring father heart, rather a professional counsellor at a cost.

As if God had an answer to this trend, back in the 70’s many mainline churches experienced very significant growth, assisted initially by the evangelism crusades of Billy Graham, and later Luis Palau and others, but more significantly, a re-discovery of signs and wonders Christianity akin to that recorded in the book of Acts.
There was a great deal of bible study going on then, as leaders and lay alike tried to understand how this new mode of Christian life with phenomena like healing and prophecy, and a strong sense of community among believers should be lived.
Families were beginning to break bread together with friends – unheard of before.
At that time various attempts were made to establish some form of Christian community with varying success. There was a tension between the house meetings that spontaneously sprung up and the official church-based activities. Would they try to grow into churches, would control be lost? Would the church lose out on the tithes?
During this period of New Zealand church history there were many outstanding miracles as Jesus was for a time able to move with a fluid body of believers but this was not to last.
Strong ‘cover’ teaching began to reign in many of the believers who were enjoying a vibrant but threatening walk with Jesus. Little theological room was given to the notion of a corporate cooperating body of believers in a district having daily fellowship outside the organised programmes of the church.

Now the mandate for corporate living goes back a long way in fact scripturally precedes the birth of the church. Further the first churches functioned with a vibrant community in support, in which there was sharing of possessions, elimination of material hardship and a resulting material equality (Acts2 2:42-47 and 2 Cor 8: 13-15)
We are light years away from this today and are missing out on being the visible testimony of Gods love in the process.
Jesus indicated in John 17:23 that the visible unity of the believers was a key aspect of evangelism. The modern church has lacked significant conversion growth for decades for this reason.
Not only do we lack this vibrant community today but many of the modern churches are without shame adopting a business or an army model, alienating those who naturally seek a family experience.

What then is the answer?
We need to let the Church attend to matters like the call to corporate worship, apostolic teaching, and prayer while the believers in community are devoted to neighbourhood fellowship, lay ministry, market place evangelism, as a separate yet co-operating spiritual entity, visible to the world. Then the gathering of the saints for church worship would be an occasion to share testimony of what the Lord has done, with the associated spontaneous response of praise and thanks upon which true worship naturally builds.
The challenge is to implement a structural change to the way we do our Christianity.
No longer should all our Christian activity proceed from the ‘vision’ of the local church. Families with a like call to Christian living should combine and become an effective expression of Jesus in their neighbourhood. This movement would cut across the denominational divide and feed back new life into all the churches. Many believers who have given up attending church would relate to such a vibrant non-church life and return to fellowship.
This model tends to operate in parts of the world where Christianity is under persecution. While it is true that true faith under pressure produces resurrection life, why wait for things to get worse when we can combine now?
There is little opportunity for Church leaders to step outside traditional thinking and grapple with the issues being raised here let alone implement such change.
That change can however happen from initiatives that you and I make. I invite you to pray about who you can meet with on a regular basis to pray together and with God’s direction begin to combine together as we read in the early chapters of Acts.

Yarddog · Sep 10, 2025

RDKirk said:
But what ever was the "war on terror?"

Congress never declared such a thing.

Not a "war on terror" but Bush used that term to get Congressional approval for the AUMF.

RDKirk said:
President Bush announced he was commencing a war on terror and Congress went along with it.

To be sure, Bush and the rest of the country was on the rebound from 9/11, but that was just the emotional side of the matter. On the jurisdictional side, there was no difference then from what Trump is doing now. But Trump doesn't need to rebound from something like 9/11 because he's got Congress already in his pocket.

I don't think I'd say that. The AUMF has been misused but Venezuela had nothing to do with terrorism involving the 9/11 attacks.
Intercepting drugs in the Gulf of Mexico or the Caribbean has usually been the job of the Coast Guard who are quite good at seizing drug boats.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2025

CerebralCherub said:
Well, with respect, I do not agree that you know because Jesus Christ said that you cannot know since He doesn't even know.

God bless.

Jesus does not know the day nor hour when God the Father will send Jesus to rapture the saints to heaven.

Differently, Marilyn in post #16 was giving her opinion of what time of the year (whatever year that may turn out to be) as being on the festival of lights, 29th of Kislev (equivalent to November-December).

I have no opinion what month. Maybe Jesus's return will coincide with the fall feasts in the bible.

RandyPNW · Sep 10, 2025

The Liturgist said:
We need to start within the Church by restoring the reverence and piety that existed in worship 60 years ago but which has been lost due to praise and worship music, “Christian rock”, and other assaults on decency and order that was assured by traditional Christian hymns and also by silent and non-musical worship such as the classic Anglican said service.

Trouble is, many of us have had a different experience, and God wants to reach every one of us in our own environment. I grew up with an emphasis on repetition and liturgy, ie religious form, but without much spiritual substance.

I'm not saying that liturgies, and ancient religious forms, are necessarily dead spiritually. It's just that in my experience they were, for the most part.

I rebelled in my youth and began to embrace Rock Music, and was impacted by the beginning of Contemporary Christian Music. The album by "Love Song" came out, which used soft rock, and with its unashamed Christian lyrics really touched me. I turned back from my secularized rebellion, and began to follow the Lord again. It seemed that God was reaching out to me where I was, without condemnation.

The contemporary sound of this Christian music has reached many people. Some friends of mine had a ministry here in which we invited S. CA Christian bands up here in the Pacific NW. We had so many young people dedicated to coming that a church was formed out of it. That denominational church has spread throughout the region.

We should fight for Salvation and Repentance--not for religious form, in my view. I'm certainly not against the older ways that are tried and true. But sometimes an injection of something new is not a compromise, though it may seem so to others. I say, Let it be.

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

CerebralCherub said:
Well, with respect, I do not agree that you know because Jesus Christ said that you cannot know since He doesn't even know.

God bless.

Maybe you would like to think on this -

Jesus when on earth did not know of His return however we know that He is now at the right hand of the Father and fully in the Godhead again. Thus, He knows very well all things, and when He will return to deliver Israel and bring judgments upon the nations.

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

Jesus comes in great power and glory and brings the tribulation to an early close. This is in the time of Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights. During the eight days - 25 Kislev to 2nd of Tevet, the Lord returns dealing with the world`s armies and delivers Israel.

Counting back from the 15th of Adar (Purim) on a Jewish Calendar (75 days) we find that the Lord returns on the 29th of Kislev.

Jewish Calendar - Length of Months.

I_________________________________________I______(30)_______I______(29)_______I_____(30)______I_____15th
.....................................................................................Kislev...........................Tevet..................Shevat......................Adar

Douggg · Sep 10, 2025

CerebralCherub said:
What is the definition of 'near' in the context of this verse? Certainly it doesn't state 2037 or any date at all.

"Near" in that verse means close at hand, not far into the future.

The elements of the parable are...

1. what does the fig tree represent.
2. how long is a generation.

RandyPNW · Sep 10, 2025

Marilyn C said:
Yes, the two scriptures describe the investiture of the Son of man and Son of David with kingdom authority. From there He starts the judgments upon the earth, the world system and fallen angels. The Body of Christ is with Him as the court.

The tribulation starts and at the end the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic army to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious.

Could be. Sometimes an explanation follows the announcement of an action. In this case, the action mentioned is the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds. And the explanation that follows either takes place at that time, or earlier, as you've suggested.

In the book of Revelation, the heavenly scene in Rev 4-5 takes place before the depiction of Christ's Return later on in the book. And it precedes all of the visions that detail the Reign of Antichrist and his defeat. So, you could be right. The heavenly court may endow Christ with the authority to enact the final scene in this age.

Pommer · Sep 10, 2025

Valletta said:
US students' reading and math scores at historic lows: 'Devastating trend'

High school students, especially 12th graders, are reading and learning math and science at historic lows, according to a new report.

abcnews.go.com

The political climate was been like a constant picnic in Crazytown for a solid decade. Not having a fully-functioning society puts stress on all members of that society, especially (probably) children.
If we could concentrate on fixing the incessant rancor in the society, the test scores will likely take care of themselves.

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

CerebralCherub said:
But we can't determine the year Jesus will return. He literally says this in the bible.

Actually, Jesus will return for Israel midway of the Festival of Lights which is in their month of Kislev/ Tevet - thus the 29th of Kislev.

Robban · Sep 10, 2025

Chesterton said:
People have been paying attention to her recent new haircut, though. Oh man, there's some funny memes of who she's compared to.

View attachment 369766

Here is something strange, it is said the eyes are the window of the soul.

Viewing the whole of this image her eyes are as dark clouds,

Roll the picture to just above the eyebrows and eyes tell a different story.

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

CerebralCherub said:
With respect, I think you're in error to believe you can calculate the return of Jesus. He knew our skills and capabilities in math, science and predictions and He still stated that 'no one knows'.

Our perceived ability to piece things together doesn't supersede Christ's words.

Maybe have a rethink.

The Lord gave the Feasts to Israel as an overview of His purpose s for them.

Passover - Fulfilled on the exact day.

Pentecost - Fulfilled on the exact day.

Feast of trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles will all be fulfilled in the trib, and the Millennium. (Rev. 8: 7 ff Rev. 11: 19 Zech. 14: 16)

And Israel`s National Celebration of their Deliverance. Adar 15. (Esther 9: 18 - 21) Count back to the beginning of the trib.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2025

CerebralCherub said:
It is a dark and false path to think we are more intelligent than Jesus Christ.

Certainly, I don't think anyone here thinks they are more intelligent than Jesus Christ.

What is is your understanding of the parable of the fig tree of Matthew 24:32-34 ?

FireDragon76 · Sep 10, 2025

Michie said:
She is no longer on the View or has her own talk show. If she wants to be left alone she should quit inserting herself in this row with Trump. I did not say she should keep her mouth shut. I said she has diarrhea of the mouth and repeatedly speaks before she thinks. Just like she did about the latest shooting incident. As far as being sexist, laughable but whatever gets you through. I don’t care.

O'Donnell is an American citizen, she should be free to speak her mind and criticize public officials (especially because her estimation of The Apprentice was accurate, and a powerful moral critique of the values it promoted), without repurcussions or threats from Trump's goon squads.

Marilyn C · Sep 10, 2025

RandyPNW said:
There is an interesting parallel between Dan 7 and Rev 1-5 in which the Son of Man appears in heaven to obtain authority on behalf of his people. Jesus appears in white, showing his absolute purity, and then we see the fires of judgment come down upon those who persecute God's People.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

I read this Little Horn as the Antichrist, and the context describing Heaven's verdict on his reign. So the context involves the terminal point of the reign of Antichrist which, of course, is when the Son of Man descends from heaven.

I understand that some here may not believe in a literal Antichrist, so it can be read that this is the time of the end of the reign of *Antichristianity.*

Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool."

This is the exact same context as we see in the book of Revelation, where the Son of Man has hair white like wool, and where he is coming with the clouds. Jesus is pure, and could provide the necessary atonement for sinners.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.....
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow.

So, we have the Son of Man being revealed to John in his vision, and like Dan 7 he has white hair and is proceeding with the clouds in an apparent fiery judgment.

Dan 7.12 I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire....
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Jesus, in Rev 4-5 can be seen obtaining a document in heaven from God, giving him authority not just to forgive our sins but also to bring the reign of Antichristian persecution to an end. He is the one with the commission, who has Divine authority to bring it about in his own time.

Rev 5.5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals..."
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Yes, the two scriptures describe the investiture of the Son of man and Son of David with kingdom authority. From there He starts the judgments upon the earth, the world system and fallen angels. The Body of Christ is with Him as the court.

The tribulation starts and at the end the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic army to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious.

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