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Is 'once saved always saved' a biblical teaching?

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The belief and teaching that a born again child of God can become un-born again and cross back over from life to death. Is an evil, satan based belief and makes God out as a liar. So i will not discuss this any further.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
AND I. know I have said to you in John 3:5 Just how were you. be BORN. of WATER and the SPIRIThe can not enter

into the Kingdom of God ?? How were. BORN. of WATER and the SPIRIT. , and is it salvation , YES. or NO. ??

Then in John 3:6 says. , That which is BORN OF FLESH. is. FLESH. , that. which is BORN. of the SPIRIT. is. SPIRIT.

What say you ??

dan p
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need prayers finding a church (political triggers inside)

What an interesting turn of events. Most forums I take part in I usually ask my questions about whatever topic I am inquiring about as objectively as possible, then take each piece of advice, dissect it, and choose how to move forward. Last night made me feel compelled to come back here and thank you all for helping me as I'm sure a common problem with online communication is never really seeing how your words impact the environment they were directed at. I woke up at 2AM to a couple of back-to-back nightmares with a common theme. I mentioned I had PTSD, so nightmares aren't new to me, but these were really strange. I ran the dreams through AI looking for a meaning and what I got was an epiphany to my current situation. When I checked my email after doing my dream research I had an email waiting for me from the local Catholic Church. I know AI has a bad reputation with people, and I myself think too much weight has been shifted to it too quickly, taking away the human factor out of a lot of the areas it was built to help in, but I felt like God was working through me (even though the tools I was using seem unconventional) to get me to take a step back and look at my situation in a different light. To then find the email waiting for me was absolutely inspiring. I wrote them back and have a meeting to meet them next week. My wife and I are both going and we're going to inquire about converting. I know this is a far cry from finality in my problem but yesterday taking a step forward in any direction seemed like an impossibility and an inherent contradiction. I'm not trying to promote AI or anything, but the circumstances behind last night were incredibly weird and forces beyond my understanding were definitely working. I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of my trauma but last night I was able to take a step outside of myself, a step outside of the condemnation I've been living in and see myself if only for a second through God's eyes. I briefly knew what it felt like to be flawed and loved in spite of it. The feeling only lasted a moment, but it restored hope I didn't know I had lost. The words here on this page is what began the facilitation of that, and I just wanted to thank you all for the prayers; no one had to answer this thread. I don't know if this will work out for me or not, but what an absolute blessing to have that feeling at 2AM after dreams that I thought had ruined my day early shook me awake. Bless you all.
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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

One reason why folks struggle with this is because they don't understand the Cross is a timeless event spanning history.

Trusting the Character of God to save is the same as trusting the Character of Jesus to save.

Jesus was given the Father's name 'The God who saves'
  • Agree
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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The object of our faith is Jesus Christ. Jesus had not come at the time of Abraham, Abraham believed in the promises of God and we should also have this faith, but the object of our faith is Jesus then we will receive the promises through the bloodline of Abraham.
So as I said, Paul did not omit that it was the same faith as Abraham, for we are Abraham's seed by that faith in Christ.

So why leave out (in post #25) that it's the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham?

Intellectual honesty?
  • Agree
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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

That refers to the Body of Christ, which is NOT spiritual Israel.

I beg to differ - because Paul clearly makes the distinction between the two Israel's - one of genealogy and one of faith.

The Israel is of faith encompasses all believers both Jew and Gentile with the common spiritual Father Abraham..
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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Ask Paul
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Paul did not omit that it was the same faith as Abraham, for we are Abraham's seed by that faith in Christ.

So why leave out (in post #25) that it's the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham?
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A conversation I am having right now with DeepSeek LLM/AI.

This is a profound and excellent question. Given the logical foundation we've built, let's explore the profile of such a being.
This is what AIs say when they are humouring you. It’s designed to keep you engaged.

You should probably stop there.
  • Agree
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

If it's the same faith in Christ which is what I said faith in Christ, why even make a mountain out of it
Why leave out that it's the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham?
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Another look at the moon landing.

But Genesis 49:17 doesn't say anything about the snake being an emblem, in the way the leek is an emblem of Wales.

So what are you trying to say, that the snake isn't the emblem of the Dan tribe ?
It's the verse where the emblem originated from like where did any emblem originate from & why ?
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Basketball Team Does The Right Thing

They won the championship, then realized they actually didn't, so they gave the championship to the real winner.

  • Winner
Reactions: PloverWing

The law, the commandments, and Christians.

The teachings of Christ define Christian morality. Sin and the moral law of God has not changed from Moses to Jesus, it just has been more fully explained. God’s righteous standard has not changed.
Firstly the moral law of God was exampled, by one without sin, what better way to fully explain what sin is, by not being any of what it is. So sin became not believing in the Son of God, because all the Son of God spoke telling the truth, sets men free from sin, which is lies, vanity, impurity, ( we are saved in our hearts being purified by faith.) and if we do not hear in faith we cant have anything fully explained, and will hear the same laws yet again, but this time consider we heard them correctly.

Gods righteous standard has not changed, but HIs standard with man did, as I said, seen in who He sent this time and the very difference between Moses and Jesus Christ, which is this much.



Numbers 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
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Trump sends troops to the 'warzone' of Portland...

Thats a bit over dramatic. The NG will be there to protect the agents.

Its your kind of rhetoric that will get people hurt.
No doubt, but sometimes free speech is like that--you speak even if you risk your opponent hurting you for it.
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A conversation I am having right now with DeepSeek LLM/AI.

You can't have a conversation with AI--there's nobody there to talk to. DeepSeek is an LLM--basically a glorified search engine.

That's the problem with calling applications like DeepSeek "artificial intelligence." It implies that actual intelligence has somehow been artificially achieved. In fact, "simulated intelligence" would be closer to the mark.
More importantly, in this case, DeepSeek is simply wrong.
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The law, the commandments, and Christians.

*takes out copy of 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith*

In Section 19, that clarifies where my Bible Church stands on the Mosaic Law. It divides the Law into three sections. The ceremonial law, aka the sacrificing of sheep and goats, was fulfilled by Christ’s perfect sacrifice on the cross, and was abolished by the rending of the veil at Christ’s death. The second part of the law is the civil law, the law about how the nation of Israel should conduct itself. This law mandates the execution of homosexuals and adulterous women, and which no Christian denomination follows today. This law was abolished when the nation of Israel ceased to be a nation, about 70 A.D.

The third part of the Law is God’s moral law, the law whereby we become conscious of sin (Romans 3:20) that no human beings measure up to. This was included through the Law of Moses in the Decalogue and the laws about idols and sexual immorality.

The Decalogue was the basis of many of the commands and teachings of Jesus. Christians are obligated to follow the commands and teachings of Jesus. In so far as there is a teaching of Christ that comes from the Decalogue, Christians follow it, and when there is no teaching of Christ, or Christ says something that pushes against the Decalogue, as in the case of the Sabbath debates, Gentile believers in Christ follow Christ. We are Christians and we follow Jesus. In affirming, extending and upgrading, the Decalogue’s commands (Matthew 5:21-48; Mark 12:28-34), Christ fulfilled the Decalogue, and showed himself consistent with it.

Therefore, Christians follow the teachings of Christ, and the essentials given here:


The teachings of Christ define Christian morality. Sin and the moral law of God has not changed from Moses to Jesus, it just has been more fully explained. God’s righteous standard has not changed.

Basically, I think we agree.

The caution I would give is that the instructions in Paul’s Epistles are guidelines as to how churches should be run, not instructions on which to condemn people of sin. Christ and God are the authority on morality, and Paul’s epistles are arguments are about how to live for Christ in a culture obsessed with excellence in all things (Greek culture) without falling back into the Mosaic law code. I do think that all Christians should pursue sanctification by following the instructions, as not doing so can harm your fellow believer and is absolutely infuriating, but accusing a fellow believer of sin based on not following Paul’s instructions may be out of order.

Otherwise, we subject Paul to the irony of saying that we are not under law but under grace, while he prescribes yet another law. Paul doesn’t claim that his instructions are a moral authority; when asked to defend them, he defers to his intelligence and authority as an Apostle. In short, he has been given revelation from God and inspiration from the Holy Spirit which we should defer to in how we run the church as an institution.

Why is this question being asked in front of everyone?




Engaging in intellectual arguments to defend what we believe to be true is not a moral virtue, and failing to engage is not a sin. In fact, there are Scriptures that the state the opposite is true.




Sometimes we need to be patient, to wait for the sands of time to turn so that others may see and experience our perspective, rather than throwing the truth they will not accept in their faces until they submit.

There are numerous Scriptures against quarreling and gossip and slander against fellow believers as well. Here’s just one of them:


Therefore, refraining from a quarrel or argument is not a sin. The opposite is true. To suggest that one is sinning by avoiding an argument is to slander one’s fellow believer. (Colossians 3:8, Ephesians 4:31, Titus 3:2 )

Where is the love in this first sentence? I think you are thinking of Ephesians 4:


I don’t think accusing one’s brother of sin publicly in front of others is very loving. Nor is subjecting one’s brother or sister in Christ to needless criticism and arguments. We are called to love each other, not quarrel with each other.

As for being our brother’s keeper, that’s Cain’s lame excuse to try and get out of punishment for murder in Genesis 4, that he wasn’t his brother’s keeper. That’s not the basis for doctrine, unless we’re talking about the instructions in the Decalogue or Matthew 5 not to murder. Cain didn’t have an obligation to argue with God, in fact, he should have repented of his sin. There are clear instructions as to how the church authority is supposed to be laid out in the Epistles and there will be no awards given for stubbornly defending your personal opinion at other people’s expense, like Cain did.


I’d like to hear it. What Scripture do you have to defend your actions?

Because these posts are not only telling me that criticism of my fellow believer is a moral virtue, but that I am obliged to do so to avoid sinning. That’s not anywhere close to Ephesians 4:32.

Because, obviously, I hate criticism, especially personal criticism directed at me. It fills me with a heart of rage. Some of it is legitimate, I’ve discovered of the years. I’m fallen, I’m not perfect, and I appreciate it when people tell me the truth. When they have the courage to tell the truth, it helps me. FINE. But there’s always a fine. There’s always the anger rushing out of the fallen machine as the gears have to stop for yet another round of infuriating maintenance. And then there’s the unjust criticism, the insults. I’ve been kicked around one too many times. The temptation for revenge is ever at hand, the “You don’t mess with me!” voice shrieking its protest out of the dark void of my unconscious. Sometimes I don’t even know whether the criticism is untrue or not, and have to wait for God to show me more.

The idea that someone would think they have a moral obligation to put others through this agony, unless they have a good reason, strikes me as reprehensible. The opposite idea is a thing of horror, we should not feel like we have to tiptoe around each other’s feelings, no to that. But sometimes, no amount of criticism of ours will produce a change in behavior, and we have to let someone else run off a cliff so they see why that is a bad idea. In other cases, criticism and correction has been delegated to an authority, and we would be wise to defer to them, to allow the authority to engage in discipline, rather than taking matters into our own hands. Other times it is not a fault, but simply a difference in opinion. It it wise to learn to understand these things. Personal criticism is a weapon of last resort, rather than the first we reach for. To do otherwise is to enable the flesh.

Criticism is just the anger of man at another man. It is not a moral virtue.


I maintain that James 5:19-20 does not negate James 1:19-20.

I maintain that Jude 1:17-23 does not negate Matthew 18:15-18.

No human being has a moral obligation to criticize another human being.

Exquisite post, my dear @linux.poet , which stylistically befits someone like you who is both skilled in poetry and rhetoric and is also a user of Linux, a version of the most elegant family of operating systems in use, the Unix-like operating systems. Indeed what you said radiates Eastern Orthodox values, which pleases me given the supposedly vast gap between Baptists and the Orthodox may be much narrower than is commonly assumed, given my pleasant experiences with the venerable Baptist minister @Der Alte who I have invited to post in Traditional Theology.

Indeed we baptize by (where medically possible) by triple full immersion, the only difference being our understanding of the mystery and that we baptize children and infants (who we baptize while seated in the font using an immersive splash that does not risk accidental aspiration of the blessed water, but if medical needs preclude full immersion we will use affusion (pouring) or some other technique, whereas, correct me if I’m wrong, some baptists would not bother at that point due to the memorialist sacramental theology).

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