"You Are Now Leaving The American Sector"

[Hammster]

From the Cato Institute, using State of Texas statistics:
Natives were convicted of 409,708 crimes, illegal immigrants were convicted of 15,803 crimes, and legal immigrants were convicted of 17,785 crimes in Texas in 2015. Thus, there were 1,797 criminal convictions of natives for every 100,000 natives, 899 criminal convictions of illegal immigrants for every 100,000 illegal immigrants
Criminal Immigrants in Texas: Illegal Immigrant Conviction and Arrest Rates for Homicide, Sex Crimes, Larceny, and Other Crimes

Crime rates are lower for illegal aliens than they are for native-born American citizens.

Once again, who is committed fewer crimes?

 

[The Barbarian]

Once again, who is committed fewer crimes?

Illegal immigrants committed fewer crimes than native-born citizens. But they didn't just commit fewer crimes; the crime rate for illegal immigrants is lower than the crime rate for native-born citizens.

You're safer among illegal aliens than you are among your fellow citizens.

Sobering, um?

 

[Hammster]

Illegal immigrants committed fewer crimes than native-born citizens. But they didn't just commit fewer crimes; the crime rate for illegal immigrants is lower than the crime rate for native-born citizens.

You're safer among illegal aliens than you are among your fellow citizens.

Sobering, um?

Should we have open borders then?

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't care what kind of evidence you present,

It's not about evidence for some people. I get that.

I don't care what anybody says, there is absolutely no way in heaven, hell, or earth that I am going to believe that.

State of Texas reports that. You think those guys are liberals? When I was in high school and college, I worked track gangs replacing railroad track every summer. In the day, the railroad hired a lot of Mexicans, most of them illegally here. They did it because those guys were reliable, trustworthy, and worked like dogs every day. Railroad work paid a lot better than most laboring jobs back then, but it was hot, hard, and dirty. Finding someone who was physically able and willing to do the work wasn't easy. Unless you hired Mexican illegals.

I worked as an ergonomist for a worker's comp carrier, most of my time in Texas, New Mexico, and Oklahoma. I got to see a lot of those guys on worksites, and later on, after I retired, I taught science and got to know their children.

No one will ever convince me that they are the sort of people that Donald Trump claimed they are. I know better from experience.

 

[Direct Driver]

As I read the posts in this thread, I realize why this nation is in for a VERY hard decade. Totalitarianism screams from everything the government is doing, yet people have eyes but do not see.

 

[The Barbarian]

Should we have open borders then?

A lot of my fellow libertarians, pointing to the success America had when we did have open borders, think so. In my opinion, we have enough enemies in the world (not all of them home-grown extremists) that we need to control entry.

The point is that our economy makes billions from the work of illegal aliens, and if we sent them all home, we'd have a critical recession. That won't happen, because there is little political will to destroy our economy, and even the extreme right politicians know this. But ignoring the law is not the answer. When enforcing the law works against the good of the nation, the law needs to be changed.

That would be good for everyone, not least the people we need to be working here; if they were legal, it would benefit them. And then the law wouldn't be working against our own interests.

 

[The Barbarian]

As I read the posts in this thread, I realize why this nation is in for a VERY hard decade. Totalitarianism screams from everything the government is doing, yet people have eyes but do not see.

Was doing. There's been a sea change. And while we won't get better quickly, we are getting better now.

 

[Direct Driver]

Was doing. There's been a sea change. And while we won't get better quickly, we are getting better now.

Hence the fence.

When you have to protect government buildings from CROWDS with fences and barricades, you are governing wrong. This is not going to end well. You can take that to the bank. That's all I'm going to say about it on this thread. Any student of history knows it's not really up for debate. Just watch and learn...

 

[Wolseley]

When I was in high school and college...

I worked as an ergonomist for a worker's comp carrier...

And how long ago was that, exactly?

 

[The Barbarian]

A long discredited allegation that even the DA no longer alleges.

U.S. Now Says No Direct Evidence Of 'Kill/Capture Teams' So Far In Capitol Riot

It appears that the plan was to break in and intimidate Congress into overturning the election, not necessarily to kill members of Congress.

Everyone was wondering why, after the election, Trump suddenly fired a number of Pentagon officials and replaced them with people personally loyal to him. He replaced those officials who were directly responsible for the deployment and disposition of forces protecting the capital. It became clear why he did it, on Jan. 6.

Trump's plan kept troops away from the Capitol for a time, until officials caught on and went around Trump's appointees to get help.


D.C. National Guard chief says Pentagon took hours to send troops to Capitol
The head of the District of Columbia National Guard revealed Wednesday it took Pentagon leaders more than three hours to approve a request for Guard troops to assist Capitol Police officers overwhelmed by the violent mob that breached the U.S. Capitol on January 6.


Major General William Walker, the commanding general of the D.C. National Guard, laid out a timeline for senators that began with a "frantic" phone call from then-Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund pleading for help, and ended with guardsmen finally arriving at the Capitol to help reestablish the security perimeter.

"The approval for Chief Sund's request would eventually come from the acting secretary of defense and be relayed to me by Army senior leaders at 5:08 pm — 3 hours and 19 minutes later," he said. "We already had guardsmen on buses ready to move to the Capitol."
D.C. National Guard chief says Pentagon took hours to send troops to Capitol

Investigators are beginning to learn how the operation was funded:
Funding for the rally and even transportation for the insurgents came from a "dark money" fund.

The Rule of Law Defense Fund (RLDF), a 501(c)(4) arm of the Republican Attorneys General Association (RAGA), helped organize the protest preceding the deadly attack on the U.S. Capitol that took place on January 6, 2021.

RLDF appeared in a list of groups “Participating in the March to Save America” on the March to Save America website alongside entities including Stop the Steal, Turning Point Action, Tea Party Patriots and others. (MarchtoSaveAmerica.com has been taken down but an archived version of the website can be accessed through the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.)
Republican Attorneys General Dark Money Group Organized Protest Preceding Capitol Mob Attack - Documented

Of course, many of the insurgents were out of control. Many of them were screaming for the murder of members of Congress, and of VP Mike Pence. Watching them viciously attack police officers defending the Capitol, no one doubts what would have happened if Pence or others had fallen into their hands.

The insurrection was planned, but it was mostly not a disciplined force that attacked. Spreading feces around the Capitol halls had no military or political purpose; it was just crazed extremists venting their hatred for our country and the Constitution.

In short, the insurrection failed largely because of a lack of discipline among Trump's people.

 

[The Barbarian]

Was doing. There's been a sea change. And while we won't get better quickly, we are getting better now.

Hence the fence.

Yep. As you probably know, the pro-Trump insurgents were calling for another assault.
The agency, responding to what the force called “a possible plot to breach the Capitol,” again sounded the alarm that pro-Trump conspirators may be planning an attack.
Capitol Police Warn of Threat on Thursday, and House Cancels the Day’s Session

When you have to protect government buildings from CROWDS with fences and barricades, you are governing wrong.

No kidding. Trump's final days in office climaxed with a bungled coup attempt. His people brought all those extremists to Washington for the purpose of overthrowing our Constitution.

And the threat of another right-wing attempt remains. FBI is now rounding up the criminals involved, and there are now investigations into the possible involvement of government officials. They are already much less able to mount another attack, and in a few months, it will be less dangerous.

This is not going to end well. You can take that to the bank.

It didn't end well for Trump. Our troops and police did their duty; the Constitution held, and the bad guys are now being brought to justice. America won. This round. A good result anyway you want to measure it.

I'm thinking that we will win the next round, if he's dumb enough to try again.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Illegal immigrants committed fewer crimes than native-born citizens. But they didn't just commit fewer crimes; the crime rate for illegal immigrants is lower than the crime rate for native-born citizens.

You're safer among illegal aliens than you are among your fellow citizens.

Sobering, um?

You should probably qualify that by saying they commit fewer non-immigration-related crimes. Because IME, somebody is bound to point out the fact that, merely by virtue of the fact that they're here illegally, they're committing more crimes per capita than the average native-born person.

It's not about evidence for some people. I get that.



State of Texas reports that. You think those guys are liberals? When I was in high school and college, I worked track gangs replacing railroad track every summer. In the day, the railroad hired a lot of Mexicans, most of them illegally here. They did it because those guys were reliable, trustworthy, and worked like dogs every day. Railroad work paid a lot better than most laboring jobs back then, but it was hot, hard, and dirty. Finding someone who was physically able and willing to do the work wasn't easy. Unless you hired Mexican illegals.

I worked as an ergonomist for a worker's comp carrier, most of my time in Texas, New Mexico, and Oklahoma. I got to see a lot of those guys on worksites, and later on, after I retired, I taught science and got to know their children.

No one will ever convince me that they are the sort of people that Donald Trump claimed they are. I know better from experience.

The whole incentive structure pushes them towards keeping their heads down and their mouths shut - in regards to both committing crimes and in reporting crimes and other abuses committed against them.

 

[The Barbarian]

You should probably qualify that by saying they commit fewer non-immigration-related crimes. Because IME, somebody is bound to point out the fact that, merely by virtue of the fact that they're here illegally, they're committing more crimes per capita than the average native-born person.

No. It's not a crime to be in the United States illegally.
Experts agreed. Unlawful presence is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, said Ilya Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies

at the libertarian Cato Institute. It is a civil infraction that results in removal and a bar on re-entry for a certain period of time.

"Not everything that’s illegal — meaning against the law or violating the law — is a crime," Shapiro said. "There are civil violations, like when you get a parking ticket. ‘Unlawful presence’ is one of these. You don't go to jail or receive any other criminal punishment for being in the country illegally
PolitiFact - Is being in the United States unlawfully a 'crime'?

 

[Direct Driver]

Was doing. There's been a sea change. And while we won't get better quickly, we are getting better now.



Yep. As you probably know, the pro-Trump insurgents were calling for another assault.
The agency, responding to what the force called “a possible plot to breach the Capitol,” again sounded the alarm that pro-Trump conspirators may be planning an attack.
Capitol Police Warn of Threat on Thursday, and House Cancels the Day’s Session



No kidding. Trump's final days in office climaxed with a bungled coup attempt. His people brought all those extremists to Washington for the purpose of overthrowing our Constitution.

And the threat of another right-wing attempt remains. FBI is now rounding up the criminals involved, and there are now investigations into the possible involvement of government officials. They are already much less able to mount another attack, and in a few months, it will be less dangerous.



It didn't end well for Trump. Our troops and police did their duty; the Constitution held, and the bad guys are now being brought to justice. America won. This round. A good result anyway you want to measure it.

I'm thinking that we will win the next round, if he's dumb enough to try again.

Posts like that are why I posted what I did in my first post here: "You Are Now Leaving The American Sector"

You're missing the big picture I'm referring to. this is not R vs D. This is more like the french revolution or the Russian revolution. It will not end well. But this is why this will be my last post in this thread. At this point, I'm simply sharing information to those that may be ignorant of history. I'm not really here to argue the point. Time will expose all of this. No need to argue what's already been decided. Just prepare for the fallout. That's what I'm doing.

 

[The Barbarian]

And how long ago was that, exactly?

Visiting worksites and observing them? About 20 years ago.

I worked track gangs with them about 45 years ago.

I taught their kids and got to know their families up to about 3 years ago.

Pretty much the same people, all along. They bought into the American Dream, believe in it intensely, and see America as Ronald Reagan did, a Shining City on a Hill. They just want to take part in it. I see many of their kids now in college, technical schools, starting businesses, or otherwise starting out as adults in the workforce, making it happen.

Pretty much as every other wave of immigrants has done.

 

[The Barbarian]

You're missing the big picture I'm referring to. this is not R vs D. This is more like the french revolution or the Russian revolution. It will not end well.

It was more like a counter-revolution, against the American Revolution. Against what was essentially the second revolution in the civil rights era. They were trying to push back the idea of freedom and equality for all. They failed.

Can they try again? Sure. But they are now weaker and fewer. And that will continue as time goes on. We just have to be vigilant, and we need to continue to find and bring to justice all of them who committed crimes in the attempt.

Biden's surprisingly high approval ratings aren't due so much to his accomplishments so far, but rather the support of the American people for the rule of law and Constitutional government.

 

[iluvatar5150]

No. It's not a crime to be in the United States illegally.
Experts agreed. Unlawful presence is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, said Ilya Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies

at the libertarian Cato Institute. It is a civil infraction that results in removal and a bar on re-entry for a certain period of time.

"Not everything that’s illegal — meaning against the law or violating the law — is a crime," Shapiro said. "There are civil violations, like when you get a parking ticket. ‘Unlawful presence’ is one of these. You don't go to jail or receive any other criminal punishment for being in the country illegally
PolitiFact - Is being in the United States unlawfully a 'crime'?

It can be a crime to enter the US illegally:
8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien

AFAIK, overstaying your visa puts you in the civil infraction bucket. Jumping the border is more likely to put you in the criminal bucket, especially if it's not your first offense.

ETA: IIRC, the decision to treat more illegal entries as criminal offenses is how the Trump administration got itself into the "splitting families" / "kids in cages" mess. The administration has some legal leeway in how they treated certain immigration offenses, with previous administrations skewing towards a civil-offense-oriented catch-and-release program. Trump decided to implement a deterrent policy of treating them all as criminal offenses which, among other things, means that the parents automatically get tossed in jail and separated from their kids just as they would after having committed any other sort of criminal offense.

 

[The Barbarian]

It can be a crime to enter the US illegally:
8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien

AFAIK, overstaying your visa puts you in the civil infraction bucket. Jumping the border is more likely to put you in the criminal bucket, especially if it's not your first offense.

Precisely. And these people aren't dumb. They are mostly coming in legally, and then overstaying. That way they don't commit a crime.

 

[Hammster]

No. It's not a crime to be in the United States illegally.

illegal - forbidden by law or statute.

 

[The Barbarian]

illegal - forbidden by law or statute.

Yep. The key is that not everything that's illegal, is a crime to do.

So being in the U.S. illegally, is not in itself a crime. Most illegal aliens enter legally and just overstay. Which is not a crime.