Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Saint Steven]

Jesus died so that God could remain just in showing mercy.

Are we remaining just when we show mercy?

Mercy is an option in judgment.
But judgment is not required for mercy to be shown.

Does God require us to show mercy to our enemies?
Can God measure up to his own righteous requirements?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sounds like you misunderstood me. No worries, I'm used to it.

No I didn’t misunderstand you. If at any time everyone enters heaven then that would mean that everyone who says to Christ Lord Lord will enter heaven. He specifically said that not all of them will enter Heaven. Your saying they will. All of them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We're getting pretty far off topic. Have you answered the topic question yet?

Yes I did that in my opening statement. I don’t believe that anyone can possibly have a better plan than God so if he has chosen eternal punishment in hell I trust that He knows what He’s doing.

 

[zoidar]

But why would the God that expects us to love our enemies do such a thing to his? Can't he live up to his own righteous standards? Doesn't make sense either.

I know we both want reasonable philosophy for what to believe. I think the best thing we can do is to meditate on this question. Possibly there is a difference in us punishing people for sinful acts done to us, than God punishing people for rebellion against what is good.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But why would the God that expects us to love our enemies do such a thing to his? Can't he live up to his own righteous standards? Doesn't make sense either.

So that we can be a light in the darkness to others leading them to Christ. Once Judgement day comes that goal is no longer applicable.

 

[Clare73]

Are we remaining just when we show mercy?

We can, if we choose to do so.

Justice is to give everyone his due.

No one gets more nor less than he is due.

God's mercy must satisfy justice, or God is not just (right).

God has satisfied his own justice in the atoning death of his One and Only Son.

God is both perfectly just and merciful, by paying the price of his justice himself.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes I did that in my opening statement. I don’t believe that anyone can possibly have a better plan than God so if he has chosen eternal punishment in hell I trust that He knows what He’s doing.

Sounds like you need to re-read the topic question. But anyway...

So, let me see if I understand the plan that you are giving your stamp of approval to.

The vast majority of all human souls have been predestined to suffer eternal conscious torment (being burned alive, but kept alive to maximize the torture) with no hope of escape. The vast majority of those having never so much as heard the name of Jesus. (countless billions)

Is that the plan you approve of? Pretty sick. But no one could have a better plan than that, because hey it's God, who could do better than God, right?

Perhaps you are mistaken about God's wonderful plan. Because the plan you claim to be God's is pretty messed up.

 

[Clare73]

Sounds like you need to re-read the topic question. But anyway...

So, let me see if I understand the plan that you are giving your stamp of approval to.

The vast majority of all human souls have been predestined to suffer eternal conscious torment (being burned alive, but kept alive to maximize the torture) with no hope of escape. The vast majority of those having never so much as heard the name of Jesus. (countless billions)
Is that the plan you approve of? Pretty sick. But no one could have a better plan

than that, because hey it's God, who could do better than God, right?
[Perhaps you are mistaken about God's wonderful plan. Because the plan you claim to be God's is pretty messed up.

It ain't God's plan that is messed up here. . .

 

[Saint Steven]

I know we both want reasonable philosophy for what to believe. I think the best thing we can do is to meditate on this question.

Yes, of course. I think about this a lot and I encourage others to do likewise.

However, most Christians refuse to give it any thought at all. They are guarding the fortress of Damnationism. They love hell and will fight anyone who dares to try to take it away from them.

I figure, if they want hell that bad, I should give it to them. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Possibly there is a difference in us punishing people for sinful acts done to us, than God punishing people for rebellion against what is good.

I think UR is a better answer to that question than Damnationism, or Annihilationism.

There is simply no "nice" way to incinerate someone.

 

[Saint Steven]

So that we can be a light in the darkness to others leading them to Christ. Once Judgement day comes that goal is no longer applicable.

So, we are supposed to fool people into thinking God is kind like us, but when they finally meet him they will find out otherwise? Wow.

If our righteousness is filthy rags, what does that say about God?

Saint Steven said: ↑
But why would the God that expects us to love our enemies do such a thing to his? Can't he live up to his own righteous standards? Doesn't make sense either.

 

[Saint Steven]

No I didn’t misunderstand you. If at any time everyone enters heaven then that would mean that everyone who says to Christ Lord Lord will enter heaven. He specifically said that not all of them will enter Heaven. Your saying they will. All of them.

I understand that you can't wrap your head around the process. You need to do your homework if you want to understand. Links below.

But you probably don't want to understand, only to argue. Right?

The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Brad Jersak - The Gospel in Chairs - Session 1 (FGC 2016) Credits: Forgotten Gospel Conference - www.theforgottengospel.com

 

[Clare73]

Yes, of course. I think about this a lot and I encourage others to do likewise.

However, most Christians refuse to give it any thought at all. They are guarding the fortress of Damnationism. They love hell and will fight anyone who dares to try to take it away from them.

I figure, if they want hell that bad, I should give it to them. - lol

And that's your assessment of God's believers?

 

[Clare73]

I think UR is a better answer to that question than Damnationism, or Annihilationism.

There is simply no "nice" way to incinerate someone.

When you create your own universe, you can run it by your rules.

Until then, this is God's universe, and I'm voting for his rules.

 

[zoidar]

I think UR is a better answer to that question than Damnationism, or Annihilationism.

There is simply no "nice" way to incinerate someone.

No nice is not a word I'd use for it. The main two reasons I believe what I do is:

1. From personal experience. I knew in my heart I wasn't going to heaven and when I repented I knew in my heart I got saved. There is always the argument that what I experienced wasn't the true picture. But I got convinced.

2. This is my understanding from the Bible.

 

[Fervent]

Are we remaining just when we show mercy?

Mercy is an option in judgment.
But judgment is not required for mercy to be shown.

Does God require us to show mercy to our enemies?
Can God measure up to his own righteous requirements?

We do not bear the same considerations as God. We do not have to dispense with retribution in order to show mercy, we are not charged with trampling the proud or defeating evil. The cross in all of its wisdom allows God to separate sin done in ignorance from true wickedness. Our showing of mercy is not so that evil may go unpunished, but to leave room for God's vengeance. If God's vengeance is removed mercy is nothing more than an excuse for evil. When God asks us to show mercy to our enemies we do so not because we give up the idea that evil should be appropriately dealt with, but as an act of trust that God will ultimately restore justice in the universe.

 

[ozso]

A place can't be a concept. . .who made that rule?
Demons are definitely found in the Bible.
Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are also not found in the Bible.

Does anyone think they have anything Biblical to do with the Messiah or his resurrection. . .or that firecrackers have anything to do with midnight on Dec 31, or green with St. Patrick, or food tables with Jospeh, the husband of Mary?

What is your issue here?

This is basically the same thing you've already posted.

 

[Saint Steven]

No nice is not a word I'd use for it. The main two reasons I believe what I do is:

1. From personal experience. I knew in my heart I wasn't going to heaven and when I repented I knew in my heart I got saved. There is always the argument that what I experienced wasn't the true picture. But I got convinced.

2. This is my understanding from the Bible.

You're a good guy. I like you and appreciate your openness to at least discuss it. Thanks.

And my grandfather was from Sweden. So you get extra credit for being Swedish. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

We do not bear the same considerations as God. We do not have to dispense with retribution in order to show mercy, we are not charged with trampling the proud or defeating evil. The cross in all of its wisdom allows God to separate sin done in ignorance from true wickedness. Our showing of mercy is not so that evil may go unpunished, but to leave room for God's vengeance. If God's vengeance is removed mercy is nothing more than an excuse for evil. When God asks us to show mercy to our enemies we do so not because we give up the idea that evil should be appropriately dealt with, but as an act of trust that God will ultimately restore justice in the universe.

So, when we get angry God expects us to forgive and to control ourselves. When God gets angry, it's a bloodbath. Is that right?

 

[Fervent]

So, when we get angry God expects us to forgive and to control ourselves. When God gets angry, it's a bloodbath. Is that right?

God is impassive. To speak of God getting "angry" is incorrect. The measures God takes in judgment are not a matter of malice or ill will against the perpetrators, but because retribution is a required dimension of justice. Are you accusing God of sin?