Would you ever vote for a lawmaker who supports murdering babies?

[Derf]

If it is wrong to abort a fetus, it is wrong to execute a criminal. A fetus conceived by rape is not the immaculate conception. A fetus can not be guiltless after never having done a thing. Who should assume financial responsibility to raise the bastard child? Many children do not get adopted, but had to go from foster home to foster home financed by government. There is a high rate of failure and homelessness of foster children after they turn 18.

Foster care - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The database of DNA catalogued at birth would help catch rapists. They might be sterilized instead of executed.

Did God know it was wrong to execute a murderer when He commanded Noah to do so?
Genesis 9:6 (KJV) Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Have we ceased being in the image of God?

What about when He told Moses to execute rapists? Did God not know that was wrong?
Deuteronomy 22:25-26 (KJV) 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; [there is] in the damsel no sin [worthy] of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so [is] this matter

What about when God inspired Paul to write the book of Romans? Did God forget what was right and wrong when Paul said the government "bears the sword"? Or is the government merely supposed to wave the sword around, rather than killing criminals with it?
Romans 13:4 (KJV)
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 

[GDL]

As a Catholic I reject that this must be decided on a Bible Alone basis. There are numerous approach’s to the question. The witness of Christian antiquity outside of the Bible is one.

Understood. Can you reference any approaches or witnesses in particular?

 

[GDL]

There is about 22 million of my close friends...

??

 

[GDL]

Earlier I gave reference to the Didache from the first century. That is pretty long-standing tradition of the church.

The Didache says what?

 

[dqhall]

Did God know it was wrong to execute a murderer when He commanded Noah to do so?
Genesis 9:6 (KJV) Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Have we ceased being in the image of God?

What about when He told Moses to execute rapists? Did God not know that was wrong?
Deuteronomy 22:25-26 (KJV) 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; [there is] in the damsel no sin [worthy] of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so [is] this matter

What about when God inspired Paul to write the book of Romans? Did God forget what was right and wrong when Paul said the government "bears the sword"? Or is the government merely supposed to wave the sword around, rather than killing criminals with it?
Romans 13:4 (KJV)
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder; Exodus 20:13 and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. (World English Bible)

If you take out the eye of one who took out an eye in revenge, then one takes out your eye in revenge, then the chain reaction might blind the entire world.

Jesus said, “Judge not lest you be judged.” Matthew 7:1

If you go to execute people, you might need an army, as they may try to execute you in return. Look at what happened to Russia and Ukraine.

 

[Derf]

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder; Exodus 20:13 and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. (World English Bible)

If you take out the eye of one who took out an eye in revenge, then one takes out your eye in revenge, then the chain reaction might blind the entire world.

Jesus said, “Judge not lest you be judged.” Matthew 7:1

If you go to execute people, you might need an army, as they may try to execute you in return. Look at what happened to Russia and Ukraine.

That's why God instituted government--to bear the sword against evil.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Didache says what?

It’s actually very short and can be read in a few minutes. About abortion it is straightforward against it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Understood. Can you reference any approaches or witnesses in particular?

The witness I recommend is the Didache because it is exceptionally early in Christian history and so straightforward.

I actually prefer more philosophical approaches that should and do work on people who reject Christian sources but do claim to be able to think.

 

[dqhall]

That's why God instituted government--to bear the sword against evil.

Jesus said, “Put away your sword. Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword.” Matthew 26:52

 

[seeking.IAM]

The Didache says what?

The Didache II. 2: (Thought to be written in the 1st century)

2. "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods";

~The Didache~

<i>Read the Catholic Teachings of St. Peter and His Apostles as written in the Didache (circa 96 A.D.) Historically these sacred instructions are [also] known as The Lord's teaching to the heathen by the Twelve Apostles.

www.thedidache.com

 

[GDL]

The Didache says what?

@seeking.IAM @chevyontheriver I read it again. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Derf]

Jesus said, “Put away your sword. Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword.” Matthew 26:52

He said that to whom? Caesar? Pilate? No, He said that to Peter, who then went on to condemn to death two people in the church who lied.
Acts 5:3 (KJV) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?

Acts 5:5 (KJV) And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Acts 5:9 (KJV) Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Was Peter wrong? Was he not being led by the Spirit?

 

[Brihaha]

Nope...killing an unborn baby is murder. Plain and simple. Murdering millions of babies is infanticide. I simply choose not to water down the language to make it seem less evil. BTW...we can still pray, help Mothers and preach the gospel. We can multitask...

Judging pagans is sinful as well. Be careful friend.

 

[Derf]

And here I thought God sent His one and only Son on earth to die on the cross to overcome evil.

Yet Jesus said this:
Matthew 10:34 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

And Paul tells us the job of the government to execute God's wrath on evil people has not been abrogated:
Romans 13:4 (KJV) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Are they contradicting God?

 

[Derf]

If death penalty truly Biblical in New Covenant then lets follow the law as it was written and not just pick and chose the law we like .

God ordered death for the following sins and people.

1. Murder (Ex 21:12,14)(Lev 24:17,21)(Num 35:16-21,30-31)

2. Kidnapping (Ex 21:16)(Deut 24:7)

3. Child sacrifice (Lev 20:2)

4. Both the man and woman who commit adultery (Lev 20:10)(Deut 22:22-24)

5. Rape (Deut 22:25)

6. Daughter of a priest who became a prostitute (Lev 21:9)

7. An idolater (Ex 22:20)(Deut 17:2-5)(Num 25:1-5)

8. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14)(Ex 35:2)(Num 15:32-36)

9. A woman having sex before marriage (Deut 22:21-22)

10. Homosexuality (Lev 20:13)

11. A man and his father’s wife who have sex (Lev 20:11)

12. A man and daughter-in-law who have sex (Lev 20:12)

13. A man who marries a woman and her mother (all 3 must die) (Lev 20:14)

14. inappropriate behavior with animals (Sex with an animal) (Ex 22:19)(Lev 20:15-16)

15. A false prophet (Deut 13:5)(Deut 18:20)

16. A false witness (Deut 19:16-21)

17. A disobedient son (Deut 21:18-21)

18. A child who strikes his father or mother (Ex 21:15)

19. A child who curses his father or mother (Ex 21:17)(Lev 20:9)

20. Men who are fighting and hit a pregnant woman, causing her lose her baby (Ex 21:22-25) ***Note: A good verse to use against those who are pro-abortion

21. A man whose ox kills someone after previously goring other people (Ex 21:28-29)

22. A sorceress (Ex 22:18)

23. A medium or spiritist (Lev 20:27)

24. A brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend who entices you to go after other gods (Deut 13:6-11)

25. Everyone in any town that entices people to go after other gods (Deut 13:12-15)

26. A blasphemer (Lev 24:10-16,23)

27. Anyone who failed to abide by a decision of the court (Deut 17:8-12)

28. Any non-Levite who tried to set up or take down the Tabernacle (Num 1:51)

Are you saying those were bad laws back then? Which of those things are you hoping to do without penalty?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Judging pagans is sinful as well. Be careful friend.

The deliberate killing of an unborn baby is murder whether or not the person doing it is a pagan or not.

 

[AJHnh]

In theory no. I do not believe in abortion or death penalty ( though in circumstances I understand the sentence) however in practicality I want to eliminate abortion. If that means voting for someone who will limit it compared to their opponent I will vote for that candidate. I will not vote for any that has only token opinions ( personally against it BUT……) I will reduce them by where and whe possible

 

[Derf]

Those were the law in Old Covenant. If we are still following the “the law” then Christ died in vain.

We aren't discussing how we are saved, but how to punish evildoers, not to mention how to detect an evildoer (like someone who would advocate for murdering the innocent. Getting those things confused introduces all kinds of evil into society with no remedy, except perhaps to destroy all mankind, like God did with the flood. Was God wrong back then to destroy the earth to stop the wickedness? Will God be wrong to destroy those who follow the anti-christ?

“Sword” in New testament is “ Word of God” not a weapon.

Then how is anyone using it to execute God's wrath on evildoers, as Paul said in the New Testament ?

And here are Armor of God

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.


Romans 13 is a chapter about obedience. Paul was writing this passage when false god worshiper Romans were in the Government. I hardly doubt Paul was saying “ God is using Roman Government to execute God’s wrath against evil”.

Then who is Paul talking about? Remember that Paul appealed to that false god Caesar for justice.

 

[Brihaha]

The deliberate killing of an unborn baby is murder whether or not the person doing it is a pagan or not.

Then they will be judged. Why insert yourself into the judgment picture at all? Their salvation is between them and God. He gave us all free will. I have zero business imparting my moral standards on other people. Unless they are Christians in my social group. Even then I wouldn't tell them what to do regarding abortion. I would only relate my own experiences and leave the choice to them.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Then they will be judged. Why insert yourself into the judgment picture at all? Their salvation is between them and God. He gave us all free will. I have zero business imparting my moral standards on other people. Unless they are Christians in my social group. Even then I wouldn't tell them what to do regarding abortion. I would only relate my own experiences and leave the choice to them.

Do you feel the same about auto hijacking? Or is that somehow a different moral standard?