Would you ever vote for a lawmaker who supports murdering babies?

[Tuur]

I think using Lev 18:21 as proof for your argument is a stretch. Lev 18:21 is about human sacrifices made to a false god, not about abortion.

How many abort because they think a child will mess up their plans, or ruin a career, or to hide a scandal, or because their employer suggests they do so because coverage for an abortion is cheaper than coverage for child birth and maternity leave. In the days of Leviticus, there were those who worshiped Moloch; in the 21st Century, there are those who worship Convenience. Is there any real difference between the two when the results are the same?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Don't vote?

I vote. But I don’t have to pick the party of Tweedle Dee to stop the party of Tweedle Dum. Others feel like they are locked into that binary choice.

 

[Tuur]

I vote. But I don’t have to pick the party of Tweedle Dee to stop the party of Tweedle Dum. Others feel like they are locked into that binary choice.

Depends on Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. Deciding between Nero and Diocletian, there's not much difference. Deciding between Caligula and Claudius, now, there's a difference.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does anyone but @BobRyan and a few disagreeing with his interpretation of a few Scriptures know how to make a Scriptural case for or against abortion? Or can they point to a comprehensive Biblical teaching on the matter that they agree with?

A decade or so I read and watched some teachings. I recall the typical theological battles on the subject, like most theological subjects, and I recall being most impressed with the work done by a Jewish Rabbi that went through Scripture and the historical rabbinical interpretations on abortion.

As a Catholic I reject that this must be decided on a Bible Alone basis. There are numerous approach’s to the question. The witness of Christian antiquity outside of the Bible is one.

 

[seeking.IAM]

How many abort because they think a child will mess up their plans, or ruin a career, or to hide a scandal, or because their employer suggests they do so because coverage for an abortion is cheaper than coverage for child birth and maternity leave. In the days of Leviticus, there were those who worshiped Moloch; in the 21st Century, there are those who worship Convenience. Is there any real difference between the two when the results are the same?

You won't get an argument from me about abortion for convenience. I am not arguing abortion, only how scripture was applied in the prior post.

 

[seeking.IAM]

As a Catholic I reject that this must be decided on a Bible Alone basis. There are numerous approach’s to the question. The witness of Christian antiquity outside of the Bible is one.

Earlier I gave reference to the Didache from the first century. That is pretty long-standing tradition of the church.

 

[BobRyan]

Does anyone but @BobRyan and a few disagreeing with his interpretation of a few Scriptures know how to make a Scriptural case for or against abortion?

There is about 22 million of my close friends...

 

[Derf]

There should be a national DNA database to help catch rapists who impregnate women against their will. Women should be allowed access to low cost birth control. Date rape should be prosecuted.

Ive been thinking more about your DNA database. The issue is that once they are convicted of rape, they should be executed, so there's no need for the database

 

[chevyontheriver]

There is about 22 million of my close friends...

There's more than that.

 

[BobRyan]

As a Catholic I reject that this must be decided on a Bible Alone basis. There are numerous approach’s to the question. The witness of Christian antiquity outside of the Bible is one.

Is there some sort of orthodox Catholic teaching that the Bible insufficiently addresses the topic or are you just saying that many additional arguments against abortion exist??

 

[Derf]

I think using Lev 18:21 as proof for your argument is a stretch. Lev 18:21 is about human sacrifices made to a false god, not about abortion.

False gods come in many shapes and sizes.

 

[BobRyan]

There's more than that.

Amen to that! A great many Christian groups affirm that the Bible condemns the murder of humans including the case in Ex 21:21-23 where even the accidental death of the unborn is deserving of the death penalty in certain cases.

 

[BobRyan]

I think using Lev 18:21 as proof for your argument is a stretch. Lev 18:21 is about human sacrifices made to a false god, not about abortion.

It condemns the killing/murder of children.
Your qualifier "but only in the case of worship to a false god' (as if the chapter were trying to argue that such murder is fine as long as it is not in worship to false god) is negated by Ex 20:13 where we see that murdering humans in general is condemned

and in Ex 21:22-23 even the accidental killing of the unborn is condemned with death penalty in certain cases.

So there is no good way to argue that Lev 18 is arguing for the killing of children except in the case of worship of false gods.

This is why "exegesis" is so important.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Is there some sort of orthodox Catholic teaching that the Bible insufficiently addresses the topic or are you just saying that many additional arguments against abortion exist??

There are many additional arguments against abortion. The Bible insufficiently addresses many things but IMHO it addresses abortion just fine. Not all Bible Alone folks come up with the same answers though, as there are those who claim the baby isn't alive until it's first breath. And the SBC was rather firm in allowing abortion back in the 1970's before they straightened out. I attribute all of that to problems with Sola Scriptura rather than to problems with the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no lesser of two evils.
Evil is evil continually.

You skipped over a huge detail in scripture.

In the Lev 18 chapter being discussed here recently - we see sins condemned in the Bible as nation-destroying-abominations. Things that will get even a pagan nation with no Bible access at all to close its probation quicker.

What we don't see listed in that chapter are things like Taking God's name in vain , stealing, lying, dishonoring parents... and many other sins condemned in the Bible.

Certain sins rise to a level such that even a non-Bible-aware nation will cut off its probationary time "early" if it engages in them.

 

[BobRyan]

There are many additional arguments against abortion. The Bible insufficiently addresses many things but IMHO it addresses abortion just fine.

agreed

 

[Homeby5]

How can you guys equivocate voting for a politician who promotes the murder of babies and the politician who "may" get us into a war that then "may" accidently kill babies? That's a far stretch...no? I mean, one is condoning and supporting the legal and intentional murder of children and the other one is a possible, but unintentional killing of a child by accident. IMO...these are in no way even close when it comes to a clear conscience.

 

[seeking.IAM]

So there is no good way to argue that Lev 18 is arguing for the killing of children except in the case of worship of false gods.

Saying it is arguing for the killing of children in other circumstances is even a bigger stretch.

Genesis 22:2 and Judges 11: 29-39 are interesting. I reckon God's order to Abraham can be dismissed as a test, sort of like He had his fingers crossed behind is back when he said it, but I wonder what God did with Jephthah for keeping his vow?

 

[dqhall]

Ive been thinking more about your DNA database. The issue is that once they are convicted of rape, they should be executed, so there's no need for the database

If it is wrong to abort a fetus, it is wrong to execute a criminal. A fetus conceived by rape is not the immaculate conception. A fetus can not be guiltless after never having done a thing. Who should assume financial responsibility to raise the bastard child? Many children do not get adopted, but had to go from foster home to foster home financed by government. There is a high rate of failure and homelessness of foster children after they turn 18.

Foster care - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The database of DNA catalogued at birth would help catch rapists. They might be sterilized instead of executed.

 

[Homeby5]

I understand using phrase like “ killing babies” , “murderer” might help to demonize the people who oppose your view, but no one who support pro-choice, advocate killing babies. No politician on Democrat side says “ elect me , and I will make baby killing more easy for everyone”.

Fact is Democrat’s platform is , “this is a choice between a woman and her doctor” . Since 70s the abortion rate going down in USA. Abortion rate going down because today woman in USA has more choices to support their babies. Social programs which helps young woman to re-build their life after a child birth, social program which help single mom to raise her kid, reduce abortion rate. Democrats are fighting for these kind of social program – paid family leave, child tax credit, universal education and healthcare, on the other hand many republicans and many Christian call these program “socialism”. But these kind of social program helps reducing abortion. Vorting for pro-life candidate doesn’t do a single things to reduce abortion.

As a Christians if I want to reduce abortion, I will go on my knee and pray to GOD, I will preach the Gospel, I will pray for a pregnant woman who is thinking about abortion. I will try to find help for the pregnant woman so after giving birth, she finds financial and social support.

Sitting here screaming “ baby killer, baby killer” will not change any things! As a Christian the most powerful thing I can do is PRAY for the unborn!

Nope...killing an unborn baby is murder. Plain and simple. Murdering millions of babies is infanticide. I simply choose not to water down the language to make it seem less evil. BTW...we can still pray, help Mothers and preach the gospel. We can multitask...