Would you ever vote for a lawmaker who supports murdering babies?

[chevyontheriver]

That would be the view that could say "... because mankind is absolutely evil and full of wickednesses, even planning during the night, in bed, new wickednesses for the next day."

That is basic Scripture, not related to man's ideas added later re total depravity.

You may not know the terminology but I think that's what your view is called. Of course correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you're wrong in this: The concept/dogma/doctrine/teachings associated with "total depravity" may be very very wrong.
Thus I never learnt total depravity as a teaching, way of life/or death/ , or doctrine or anything,
and do not go along with those who hold to all that may go along with it.

Not the main point of this thread, but I would wonder how your view differs from total depravity. Mine differs because I agree that we are fallen, bent, even born sinners, but that we are not totally depraved. After all, we do teach our children how to tie their shoes. But we teach them how to cheat. And even if we didn't teach them they would figure it out all by themselves. We are fallen. And yet not every action we do is soaked in sin.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Peter Singer, professor (endowed full professor no less) of Bioethics at Princeton University, though not a politician, has advocated for that. Kind of like the old Roman practice of the father of the household having veto power on which babies came into the household and which went to the dump.

So far we don't have politicians advocating for just that.

Peter Singer isn’t a politician and last I checked nobody asked him to run for office. People say stupid things all the time, but that isn’t what this thread is about. It’s about if we’d vote for somebody who advocates or supports it as long as the rest of their platform was agreeable. Seeing as he isn’t running for anything and has no particular platform, he’s rhetoric doesn’t apply.

 

[rturner76]

No concept of abortion. Why do we have such an evil concept?

We have a higher level of intelligence

 

[RileyG]

Then there's the 'I heart abortion' T-shirts I saw for sale from one abortion supporting organization, VoteProChoice.us. I couldn't believe they could be quite that callous or quite so obvious, but they were offering such T-shirts for sale.

Lord have mercy! Shows how far sickening our society has become.

 

[RileyG]

It doesn't surprise me that pro-"choice" people become so angry when abortion "rights" are attacked. Deep down, they know its wrong. Their conscience is convicting them. sigh...

 

[GodLovesCats]

No. All we have to do is ask you for your proof, as in the contact information for the 'offending' crisis pregnancy centers. You wouldn't have posted what you did without proof, would you? So show your work. Name names.

The offending CPCs would lie if you contacted them., Proof is in the horror stories totally unbiased, non-religious sources report

 

[GodLovesCats]

The record youngest pre-term surviving baby is just under 19 weeks. Sorry but your information is a bit off. Born at Children's Hospital in Minneapolis in 2020.

Please, when you state things as facts, have the facts.

I actually posted what I read in an article. That baby must have been born after I what I read on a different website.

 

[GodLovesCats]

It doesn't surprise me that pro-"choice" people become so angry when abortion "rights" are attacked. Deep down, they know its wrong. Their conscience is convicting them. sigh...

No abortion rights were removed from the Constitution after being added to it. They will exist as long as America does.

There is no reason to put quotation marks around the word choice in your first sentence. Being pro-choice is just that - wanting to let the expecting mother choose whether she has an abortion or not.

There is a very good reason for pro-choicers to get angry: They all know anti-choice people have absolutely no interest in helping anyone avoid getting an abortion or being kind to any incest and rape victims. I need to see every anti-choice Christian want the federal and state government, the only organization capable of doing what must be done, to help every citizen at high risk of getting an abortion get everything she needs to avoid making that choice. Until that happens, abortion is the only solution to all their problems and making it illegal is just treating them like they are second-class citizens.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Peter Singer isn’t a politician and last I checked nobody asked him to run for office.

I did say he was not a politician. He is a full professor at an Ivy League university in a department of Bioethics.

People say stupid things all the time, but that isn’t what this thread is about. It’s about if we’d vote for somebody who advocates or supports it as long as the rest of their platform was agreeable.

And I simply would not. That would be like voting for someone because he made the trains run on time.

Seeing as he isn’t running for anything and has no particular platform, he’s rhetoric doesn’t apply.

His rhetoric is helping to shape the next mush headed politicians. So while I do not get to vote for or against him he has influence. And that influence has a decent chance of filtering down into political platforms. It hasn't yet filtered down into the Democratic Party platform. Yet.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The offending CPCs would lie if you contacted them., Proof is in the horror stories totally unbiased, non-religious sources report

So you can't name the places that you say would lie to me about their policies? But you still claim you have some sort of proof? But it can't somehow be fact checked?

I'm not buying it. You made some bold claims. Now you put forth no proof of your bold claims. I think they are bald claims.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I actually posted what I read in an article. That baby must have been born after I what I read on a different website.

You are not magically and mystically off the hook for posting false information from some 'article'. Referring to some 'article' means you are willing to stand behind it and you have done your homework to be sure it is reputable, accurate, and up to date. Your trustworthiness is at stake in every 'article' you reference as if it were true.

 

[GodLovesCats]

So you can't name the places that you say would lie to me about their policies? But you still claim you have some sort of proof? But it can't somehow be fact checked?

I'm not buying it. You made some bold claims. Now you put forth no proof of your bold claims. I think they are bald claims.

I need time to look them up, OK? You gave me a very long homework assignment.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I need time to look them up, OK? You gave me a very long homework assignment.

You created the homework assignment for yourself when you made those assertions of supposed facts. I'm just asking for you to show the work you have supposedly already done.

 

[GodLovesCats]

You created the homework assignment for yourself when you made those assertions of supposed facts. I'm just asking for you to show the work you have supposedly already done.

Here it is:

The Anti-Abortion Movement Next Door

In California, a supposed sanctuary state for reproductive rights, Christian crisis pregnancy centers outnumber abortion care clinics by 20%.

www.kqed.org

Napa Women's Center is the name you are looking for.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I did say he was not a politician. He is a full professor at an Ivy League university in a department of Bioethics.

And I simply would not. That would be like voting for someone because he made the trains run on time.

His rhetoric is helping to shape the next mush headed politicians. So while I do not get to vote for or against him he has influence. And that influence has a decent chance of filtering down into political platforms. It hasn't yet filtered down into the Democratic Party platform. Yet.

I don’t hear him being used as an example or starting point for politicians looking to enter the field, nor do I see him in the mainstream as an educational representative for the people. He is an outlier who’s expressing an opinion related to his field, not the standard expressing a fact to be adopted by society as a whole.

I find it impossible to believe that unless there’s some massive cultural and moral shift that occurs on a worldwide scale, which is highly unlikely, that anybody will start saying that because infanticide is biologically morally neutral (which is consistent with what a professor of Bioethics would say, I might add), it is also socially and ethically neutral, much less adopt it as a platform for a party. In order for that to happen, the whole world order would have to change significantly because even if the impossible happened and America now supported infanticide by popular vote and general belief, the response from the world would be swift, severe, and have lasting consequences to the health of our nation.

There are plenty of people who are in politics who do say shocking things and try to get them pushed into the mainstream, from “the world really is flat” to ”COVID isn’t real and the shot isn’t helpful” to “the holocaust isn’t real.” Those are the people we should be keeping an eye on because there is a whole subculture of people who actually believe that and attempt to form policy because of it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Here it is:

The Anti-Abortion Movement Next Door

In California, a supposed sanctuary state for reproductive rights, Christian crisis pregnancy centers outnumber abortion care clinics by 20%.

www.kqed.org

Napa Women's Center is the name you are looking for.

I asked you for something which substantiates what you wrote below.

That is what churches say, but not what they do, if you are talking about crisis pregnancy centers. I have done research on CPCs and learned all of them only do more harm than good because all they care about is gaining church memberships. Simply telling me a church you belong to does the right thing for everyone seeking an abortion at a CPC is not proof of anything. A Catholic CPC might give away some crib bedding, onesies, bottles, and diapers to other Catholics, but they turn away everyone who is not a heterosexual Christian and lie about what their services are. I have read about CPCs with a "Learn to Earn" program, in which taking a class about Catholicism is required before they can buy stuff for babies. At those places, no baby supplies are free. It is all about converting more people to Catholicism to them, not helping people most in need of the services that CPCs dishonestly claim to provide. All this is in addition to the fact they can't provide a single cent to anyone seeking an abortion because she has no money to take care of a baby. The first thing people need to take care of a baby is a thousand dollars.
Click to expand...

I asked "Can you substantiate this by providing the identity of a few Crisis Pregnancy Centers that are like this? Just a few CPC names and addresses and phone numbers so this can be verified. I'm VERY curious because I have never seen any of that."

You gave me a name of one place. But does that one place do any of the supposedly nefarious things you said? You say you have done research on Crisis Pregnancy Centers and that ALL OF THEM DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD because all they care about is gaining church membership. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? You mention that Catholic Crisis Pregnancy Centers will only provide assistance to Catholics. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? And that they turn away everyone who is not a heterosexual Christian. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? Your link did not mention 'Learn to Earn', or about having to take classes on Catholicism, or about paying for baby supplies, or about converting more people to Catholicism.

The article you posted reads like a very biased hit piece on Crisis Pregnancy Centers. If that's what you like, then fine. But it doesn't come even close to substantiating what you claimed above. You said you did the research. Maybe you did. But you have not shown your work. Not even close.

Here is the web page for the Napa Women's Center: Napa Women’s Center - Napa, CA - Home

You already said they are liars.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I asked you for something which substantiates what you wrote below.

I asked "Can you substantiate this by providing the identity of a few Crisis Pregnancy Centers that are like this? Just a few CPC names and addresses and phone numbers so this can be verified. I'm VERY curious because I have never seen any of that."

You gave me a name of one place. But does that one place do any of the supposedly nefarious things you said? You say you have done research on Crisis Pregnancy Centers and that ALL OF THEM DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD because all they care about is gaining church membership. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? You mention that Catholic Crisis Pregnancy Centers will only provide assistance to Catholics. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? And that they turn away everyone who is not a heterosexual Christian. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? Your link did not mention 'Learn to Earn', or about having to take classes on Catholicism, or about paying for baby supplies, or about converting more people to Catholicism.

The article you posted reads like a very biased hit piece on Crisis Pregnancy Centers. If that's what you like, then fine. But it doesn't come even close to substantiating what you claimed above. You said you did the research. Maybe you did. But you have not shown your work. Not even close.

Here is the web page for the Napa Women's Center: Napa Women’s Center - Napa, CA - Home

You already said they are liars.

I thought you would appreciate the fact that the article is from a totally unbiased-non-religious source, as opposed to NARAL Guttmacher Institute, or Planned Parenthood. Apparently you cannot except an extremely obvious lie when you see it because the leader of NWC claimed nobody there ever lies, but they offer illegal information such as being able to get a drug there that the FDA never approved. How is that not doing more harm than good on purpose? How is pretending to be a nurse when you have no medical training not doing more harm to girls and women than good? These details, on top of the CPC's refusal to admit they are liars, cannot be interpreted as anything but doing more harm than good.

You are not thankful for any of the information I provided - and there is a lot of that. What would Jesus do?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I thought you would appreciate the fact that the article is from a totally unbiased-non-religious source, as opposed to NARAL Guttmacher Institute, or Planned Parenthood.

KQED as unbiased? Ha!

Apparently you cannot except an extremely obvious lie when you see it because the leader of NWC claimed nobody there ever lies, but they offer illegal information such as being able to get a drug there that the FDA never approved. How is that not doing more harm than good on purpose? How is pretending to be a nurse when you have no medical training not doing more harm to girls and women than good? These details, on top of the CPC's refusal to admit they are liars, cannot be interpreted as anything but doing more harm than good.

They offer 'illegal information'? A drug the FDA never approved? Your article never mentioned 'illegal information' and the drug, progesterone, is FDA approved in contraceptives and for other uses. It's use is not forbidden outside of contraceptives just as the nasty cancer treatment drug methotrexate was used off book for abortion for years. So crying foul about progesterone used to try to save a pregnancy in a last ditch effort is foul unless you also consider the off book use of FDA approved drugs for abortion to be wrong.

But that is neither here nor there in that you have not bothered to respond to my questions about your research. Let me remind you of those unanswered questions. You say you have done research on Crisis Pregnancy Centers and that ALL OF THEM DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD because all they care about is gaining church membership. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? Crickets. You mention that Catholic Crisis Pregnancy Centers will only provide assistance to Catholics. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? Crickets. And that they turn away everyone who is not a heterosexual Christian. WHERE IS THAT in the link you provided? Crickets. Your link did not mention 'Learn to Earn', or about having to take classes on Catholicism, or about paying for baby supplies, or about converting more people to Catholicism. Crickets.

So far crickets about all of that. Unless you can substantiate your 'research' on that I'm not inclined to believe you want to do anything but call people liars.