Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

[Wayne Gabler]

I agree that Paul was sent to Rome but fail to see how it is relevant to this particular discussion. I also don't see the relevance of Matt 28:1.

You are correct but I was talking about the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Capitalization and punctuation was not in the original it was added by translators and may or may not be correct.

The part I was pointing out is the Churches in Asia were started by 35AD, when the Apostles were in Jerusalem until 70AD. I even showed that the writer of Revelation is the one that started them. The last book was written about 100AD, those Churches were already 70 years old by that time, rather than they were just started after the letters were written.

You are wrong about the punctuation as they were added so more than one line from the OT could be placed on one line which helped reduce the number of pages in a modern Bible.
M't:1:1: The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
M't:1:2: Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
M't:1:3: And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
M't:1:4: And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;

Etc

The text was originally in this format: (OT and NT)
M't:1:1-3:
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ,
the son of David,
the son of Abraham.
Abraham begat Isaac;
and Isaac begat Jacob;
and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar;
and Phares begat Esrom;
and Esrom begat Aram;
And Aram begat Aminadab;
and Aminadab begat Naasson;
and Naasson begat Salmon;

Etc.

 

[Der Alte]

The part I was pointing out is the Churches in Asia were started by 35AD, when the Apostles were in Jerusalem until 70AD. I even showed that the writer of Revelation is the one that started them. The last book was written about 100AD, those Churches were already 70 years old by that time, rather than they were just started after the letters were written.

You are wrong about the punctuation as they were added so more than one line from the OT could be placed on one line which helped reduce the number of pages in a modern Bible.
M't:1:1: The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
M't:1:2: Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
M't:1:3: And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
M't:1:4: And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;

Etc

The text was originally in this format: (OT and NT)
M't:1:1-3:
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ,
the son of David,
the son of Abraham.
Abraham begat Isaac;
and Isaac begat Jacob;
and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar;
and Phares begat Esrom;
and Esrom begat Aram;
And Aram begat Aminadab;
and Aminadab begat Naasson;
and Naasson begat Salmon;

Etc.

Source?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

"Christian" and "serial killer" are mutually exclusive. You would be one or the other not both, at the same time.

Revelation 21:7-8​

(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.​

(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Job seems to think sins are forgiven when you die: (as in the price of sin is death)

Job:14:14-14:
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Great tribulation in prophecy is about hell, the ones in these verse were sent to hell for their sins, this is them after the GWT event and just before they are given the living water when they enter New Jerusalem for the ride back to this earth as the 1st event in the new earth era.

Re:7:9-17:
After this I beheld,
and,
lo,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people,
and tongues,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice,
saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne,
and about the elders and the four beasts,
and fell before the throne on their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
Amen:
Blessing,
and glory,
and wisdom,
and thanksgiving,
and honour,
and power,
and might, be unto our God for ever and ever.
Amen.
And one of the elders answered,
saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him,
Sir,
thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more,
neither thirst any more;
neither shall the sun light on them,
nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Isa:65:12-16:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.

When your sins are not remembered, does God then send you to the fiery lake like some people alive today believe? Or do they complete what the new earth verses promote as the 'servants' will be in Jerusalem, New Jerusalem to be exact as that Jerusalem is also part of the new earth.
The new earth as defined by the many visions Enoch was shown, that makes it the whole universe as it is empty of angels who have moved to their permanent heaven, Mount Sion in Hebrews:12.

 

[Lost4words]

Go against God and not repent and suffer God's judgement.

 

[YahuahSaves]

If there is "no more death" after vs. 4 then the 8 groups do not die.

You do realise the bible is not read like a book from start to finish? It's a warning. "Those who are victorious will inherit", "BUT > XYZ > will inherit the lake of fire > which is the 2nd death".

"Let them be" just means they are going to keep doing what they are doing, (sinning), don't enact justice because their end is death in the lake of fire (After God's judgement upon resurrection).

Revelation was written at a particular time and incorporates every major event from 70AD until the end, where God will create a new heaven and new earth.

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings,

But

their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Der Alte]

You do realise the bible is not read like a book from start to finish? It's a warning. "Those who are victorious will inherit", "BUT > XYZ > will inherit the lake of fire > which is the 2nd death".
"Let them be" just means they are going to keep doing what they are doing, (sinning), don't enact justice because their end is death in the lake of fire (After God's judgement upon resurrection).
Revelation was written at a particular time and incorporates every major event from 70AD until the end, where God will create a new heaven and new earth.

Please show me some scripture to support your comment, "You do realise the bible is not read like a book from start to finish?" I am certain there is nothing which states that Rev 21:4 and vs. 8, in the same chapter are not to be understood as relating directly to each other.
Rev. was written to former pagan Christians in 7 Asian [modern Turkey] cities. How would they understand these vss.? Do you think they would understand that, "Revelation was written at a particular time and incorporates every major event from 70AD until the end, where God will create a new heaven and new earth?" Or is that something somebody concocted to make Rev. line up with their own assumptions/presuppositions?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Please show me some scripture to support your comment, "You do realise the bible is not read like a book from start to finish?"

It's common knowledge (or should be) that the bible is to be read chronologically and not like a normal book. After all, it's many scrolls combined into one. It's starting to make sense to me why you are not able to see the context clearly. The second death happens before the new Jerusalem.

 

[Der Alte]

It's common knowledge (or should be) that the bible is to be read chronologically and not like a normal book. After all, it's many scrolls combined into one. It's starting to make sense to me why you are not able to see the context clearly. The second death happens before the new Jerusalem.

"Common knowledge" ain't so "common." I agree that different books are not necessarily chronological. But you are dodging my objection. Nothing you have said or could say can show that Rev 21:4 and 21:8 are not closely related.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Re:21:1 - Re:21-8 is all the same 'paragraph' It explains what law people are under if they are in a glorified body that in immortal. The food allows the resurrected people to interact with the material world. God took the resurrected Jesus that could not hug Mary M. into somebody who could touch the 11 people in a small room that coming evening. The room was locked, so He 'came through a wall' and neither was damaged.

 

[YahuahSaves]

But you are dodging my objection.

How so? I didn't say they weren't closely related. I said (back in post #126)

"Those who are victorious will inherit", "BUT > XYZ > will inherit the lake of fire > which is the 2nd death".

Revelation 1
Prologue

1 This is a revelation from[a] Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, 2 who faithfully reported everything he saw. This is his report of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus revealed to John everyone who is victorious will inherit eternal life, everyone who continues in unbelief and sin will inherit eternal destruction. (Or punishment, whichever translation you subscribe to). At the end, the text does not say those who inherit eternal destruction will have eternal life in order to suffer forever. The ECT view puts their own meaning into the text, thinking it reads "everyone inherits eternal life and those deemed unworthy of the kingdom will be destroyed eternally". It really makes no sense when you read what eternal life is. And aren't you also one who doesn't believe in an eternal soul? How can non-believers live eternally without an eternal soul?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

And who created everything that exists, and designed it with hell being the default option? T'weren't me. Or you. Or any sinner that evert lived.

Me? I don't think God designed the universe (I know you don't like that word. but it's easier to type than "everthing that exists") so that most of the people we're told He loves are tortured forever. I believe, and Scripture repeatedly says, that the "the soul that sins will die". Oh, that doesn't really mean death, what it really means is eternal life in torment. "But the wages of sin is death!" No, once again death doesn't really mean death. What it really means is eternal life in torment.

I say nonsense. The wages of sin is DEATH, as in DEATH, as in the state of being DEAD, like a bug on a windshield, dead. To, in effect to never have existed at all, in all eternity. Gone, forgotten, extinct, not even a memory left to trouble the hearts of the saints. Deleted and over-written with binary zeroes. We don't keep dirt about so we can hate it for being nasty and offensive, do we? Not unless we're extraordinarily strange, no, we don't. Why would God keep the failed creatures whose sins have offended Him arround to pollute His creation?


But in your belief, that have eternal life, don't they? They're given that gift of God so they can be tormented without end. Sounds awfully like something that the Cosmic Loser (that's old Nick, BTW) would come up with as a petty "I'll show them" deal if he had the power to do it. Doesn't sound like God at all.

Did God destroy siner all thtough the Bible? Yep, sure did. Just as He had given them life, He removed it. But did He torture anyone? Nope. The pagans, however, did. All the time. Isn't that interesting?

I can’t find a single scripture that says the spirit of a person dies. The body yes the soul yes but not the spirit. We know the body dies unless we are the lucky ones who will see Jesus’s return. And Jesus said if you want to save your soul you must lose it and if you try to save it you will lose it. The soul is what we have created out of this mortal life. That’s why scripture says The word is sharper than a double edged sword dividing the spirit and soul. The second death is the death of the soul, what good does it do a man to gain the whole world but to lose his soul. That’s the second death all is dead except the spirit.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Robert Young who "wrote" the YLT was self-taught in Hebrew and Greek. Would you go to a doctor who was self-taught? I wouldn't. The Young's Literal Translation is called "literal' by the author not by any body of learned scholars. Caveat emptor.

Why do you believe that just because someone is self taught they are automatically wrong? It seems that it’s the world’s standard that one has to have letters behind their name and be peer reviewed to be true. Isn’t that what scripture says “ they compare themselves by themselves “ truth is truth no matter how it is learned. I think you should say that I don’t accept them because they go against my tradition that I believe is true. We are not to conform to the world’s standards.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Robert Young who "wrote" the YLT was self-taught in Hebrew and Greek. Would you go to a doctor who was self-taught? I wouldn't. The Young's Literal Translation is called "literal' by the author not by any body of learned scholars. Caveat emptor.

I would if his name was Jim Humboldt I would. Not so much if they work for 'big pharma' in the plague division.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is your free will really being exercised in saying "Thy will be done"? Doesn't Christ command us to surrender our free will? Isn't giving up your free will a requirement for entering the kingdom of God?

We are absolutely exercising our free will by saying “Thy will be done”. Willful submission to God’s will is an exercise of free will not compulsion. There wouldn’t be any need for a commandment to surrender our free will if wasn’t intended to be done voluntarily.

 

[JulieB67]

states that God is able, but does that mean that God does.

But when you pair Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28 to his teaching in Revelation about the second death, there can no no doubt of what he means. Destroy in the Greek means destroy "fully". And again, that would certainly be classified as the second death.

You do realise the bible is not read like a book from start to finish? It's a warning.

I've tried to state that before as well. That these verses below are just Christ reiterating what will happen. And both of those things happen at Judgement Day. That's why it can be said there is no more death in verse 4. Because that all will have been done away with.

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Christ even states it is "done". We then are given the descriptions, etc.

But as you stated, Christ is warning us what will happen, it's still a Revelation being given to us. But some can't see that.

The second death happens before the new Jerusalem.

Exactly!

Jesus revealed to John everyone who is victorious will inherit eternal life, everyone who continues in unbelief and sin will inherit eternal destruction.

Yes, that's exactly what he is stating.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

How much free will does anyone have in a book that is full of prophecies. If the 7 vials are going to kill 2/3 of the people that are alive, that is what will happen. There is no way to make it 1/3. The first people who have free will are the ones in Re:21 that are offered a drink of living in exchange for accepting to obey the Laws in that passage.
Re:21:6-7:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.

 

[public hermit]

We are absolutely exercising our free will by saying “Thy will be done”. Willful submission to God’s will is an exercise of free will not compulsion. There wouldn’t be any need for a commandment to surrender our free will if wasn’t intended to be done voluntarily.

Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day." John 6:44

If we could simply submit to God's will under our own power there would be no need for grace. Sin is not simply a matter of disobeying God. Sin is a power we are under and from which we cannot be freed without grace.

Only in Christ are we truly free. This idea that we have freedom to choose God's will is not the account of freedom given in the scriptures. We are either slaves to righteousness or slaves to sin. Libertarian freedom, i.e., the idea that one is free if one could have done otherwise, is an illusion. The only true freedom is freedom from sin, which is a gift of grace.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day." John 6:44

If we could simply submit to God's will under our own power there would be no need for grace. Sin is not simply a matter of disobeying God. Sin is a power we are under and from which we cannot be freed without grace.

Only in Christ are we truly free. This idea that we have freedom to choose God's will is not the account of freedom given in the scriptures. We are either slaves to righteousness or slaves to sin. Libertarian freedom, i.e., the idea that one is free if one could have done otherwise, is an illusion. The only true freedom is freedom from sin, which is a gift of grace.

This person qualities as a Christian, grace is for people whop are sinful and die without repenting their sins:
Joh:20:26-29:
And after eight days again his disciples were within,
and Thomas with them:
then came Jesus,
the doors being shut,
and stood in the midst,
and said,
Peace be unto you.
Then saith he to Thomas,
Reach hither thy finger,
and behold my hands;
and reach hither thy hand,
and thrust it into my side:
and be not faithless,
but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him,
My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas,
because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen,
and yet have believed.

No Gentile could do this and still be alive for the 1,000 years (Re:20:4), like the 12 Tribes are:
Eze:36:16-20:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.

The one thing about grace that most people don't pay attention to is that once you know grave covers repented sins, any sins committed with the thought grace will cover them will be shocked to find out those sins are not forgiven.

 

[Jipsah]

I can’t find a single scripture that says the spirit of a person dies. The body yes the soul yes but not the spirit.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20

Now show me anything in Scripture that says that everyone, as a spirit or otherwise, will live forever.

 

[Michie]

Yes, Hell Is Real and It Is Eternal

Trent Horn reminds the faithful of the very personal reality of the devil, and the reality of hell as eternal punishment for the condemned.

www.catholic.com