Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

[LW97Nils]

God is all just. Hence why he has to do it in spite of not wanting it. We also must judge that our fruits show.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46

 

[Light of the East]

God is all just. Hence why he has to do it in spite of not wanting it. We also must judge that our fruits show.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46

You obviously have no concept of what justice is. Sending a soul to eternal torment for sins committed in this life is like the Puritans hanging a hungry child for stealing a piece of bread.

 

[LW97Nils]

You obviously have no concept of what justice is. Sending a soul to eternal torment for sins committed in this life is like the Puritans hanging a hungry child for stealing a piece of bread.

You think because the sins are temporary? Well, they are not. Murdering someone is temporary also BUT the consequences are eternal. So it does make sense. I am ready to change my view but I believe the Lake of Fire is eternal just as eternal life in heaven is eternal also. See Verse 46.

 

[Light of the East]

Where do you get the idea that sins are eternal?

Yes, let's do look at verse 46.

25:46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

25:46 καὶ (and) ἀπελεύσονται (shall go away) οὗτοι (these) εἰς (into) κόλασιν (correction) αἰώνιον (age-lasting) οἱ (but) δὲ (the) δίκαιοι (righteous) εἰς (into) ζωὴν (life) αἰώνιον (age-lasting)

The KJV, the Douay-Rheims, and in fact, all Western translations are horrendous distortions of the Greek. You need to be using either Rotherham's Translation of the NT or Young's Literal Translation.

The "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor for God's love. Remember, Hebrews states that God's love is a consuming fire. Now . . . WHAT does it consume? According to the various imageries in the Bible, fire is purifying.

Matthew 13:50
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The word "furnace" here is specifically a smelting furnace. This is in line with other passages in the Bible in which the Lord speaks of "refining" by fire like a goldsmith refines gold. The fire of God is designed to smelt away, to refine, to purify . . . not to destroy. The only thing that it destroys, according to St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3, is the "wood, hay, and stubble" of our lives, i.e. the sins that we carry into the next life. For every person, this will be a different experience, depending upon the life they have lived now. Some rather famously evil characters throughout human history are no doubt still undergoing that painful process. Some, like the saints, cruise right up to Christ with no need for purification. Everyone is different.

 

[LW97Nils]

Where do you get the idea that sins are eternal?

Yes, let's do look at verse 46.

25:46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

25:46 καὶ (and) ἀπελεύσονται (shall go away) οὗτοι (these) εἰς (into) κόλασιν (correction) αἰώνιον (age-lasting) οἱ (but) δὲ (the) δίκαιοι (righteous) εἰς (into) ζωὴν (life) αἰώνιον (age-lasting)

The KJV, the Douay-Rheims, and in fact, all Western translations are horrendous distortions of the Greek. You need to be using either Rotherham's Translation of the NT or Young's Literal Translation.

I do use the YLT too, but it is not without flaws either. So our eternal life is just age lasting too and may end?

 

[Der Alte]

Where do you get the idea that sins are eternal?
Yes, let's do look at verse 46.
25:46 καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον
25:46 καὶ (and) ἀπελεύσονται (shall go away) οὗτοι (these) εἰς (into) κόλασιν (correction) αἰώνιον (age-lasting) οἱ (but) δὲ (the) δίκαιοι (righteous) εἰς (into) ζωὴν (life) αἰώνιον (age-lasting)
The KJV, the Douay-Rheims, and in fact, all Western translations are horrendous distortions of the Greek. You need to be using either Rotherham's Translation of the NT or Young's Literal Translation.
The "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor for God's love. Remember, Hebrews states that God's love is a consuming fire. Now . . . WHAT does it consume? According to the various imageries in the Bible, fire is purifying.
Matthew 13:50
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The word "furnace" here is specifically a smelting furnace. This is in line with other passages in the Bible in which the Lord speaks of "refining" by fire like a goldsmith refines gold. The fire of God is designed to smelt away, to refine, to purify . . . not to destroy. The only thing that it destroys, according to St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3, is the "wood, hay, and stubble" of our lives, i.e. the sins that we carry into the next life. For every person, this will be a different experience, depending upon the life they have lived now. Some rather famously evil characters throughout human history are no doubt still undergoing that painful process. Some, like the saints, cruise right up to Christ with no need for purification. Everyone is different.

Robert Young who produced the Young's "Literal" Translation was self-taught in Hebrew and Greek. The YLT is only "literal" because Young said it was. I would not consult a Dr or lawyer who was self-taught.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[Light of the East]

I do use the YLT too, but it is not without flaws either. So our eternal life is just age lasting too and may end?

Jesus was not talking about eternal life in this and other verses. If you read Matthew 23-25, you see that in Matthew 24:3, the disciples ask about "the end of the age." Jesus was talking about what is to come in the next age, the one that started when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. When you go to Revelation (Apocalypse) you find that it speaks about "ages of ages."

Rev 20:10
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

You see, there is more than one age yet to come. We don't know anything about them, how many there are, or how long each one will last. All we know is that the Bible speaks of "ages." The way most people think eschatologically is that there is the age we are in and then the end comes. That's it. But the promise is simply that in the next age, the wicked will be punished and corrected while the righteous enjoy life - true life - life with Christ, which is the real life. And they will continue to enjoy it forever, while the wicked are punished according to the degree of their guilt and until they are purged of all their wickedness.

 

[Der Alte]

I do use the YLT too, but it is not without flaws either. So our eternal life is just age lasting too and may end?

The problem with the post you quoted is some folks, to make scripture fit their assumptions/presuppositions, concoct their own definitions for Greek words. The Greek word "aionios" is an adjective, the English word "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.

 

[Light of the East]

Robert Young who produced the Young's "Literal" Translation was self-taught in Hebrew and Greek. The YLT is only "literal" because Young said it was. I would not consult a Dr or lawyer who was self-taught.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

What you fail to comprehend is that languages can be corrupted and changed over centuries of time. For instance, at one time, the word "gay" meant "happy" or "joyful." Now it means you are a sexual three-dollar bill. You fail to recognize this, and you fail also to recognize that many Greek speaking saints, such as St. Isaac of Syria, the Cappadocian Fathers, St. Gregory, and others all believed in the Scriptures and believed in Apokatastasis. So, your argument is that these Greek speaking Fathers didn't know their own language?

I have a firm belief that the meaning of the word "aionios" has changed with translators through the centuries. If you teach an error long enough, it becomes fact. The fact is that Latin translators did not know Greek and mangled the Greek Scriptures. I also know enough about the history of politics in the Roman Empire to know that scaring the hell out of people by threatening them with eternal burning is a great way to commandeer obedience from unruly subjects.

So you are saying that punishment is somehow a NOUN? Sorry, dude, but when my Paw whupped my butt as kid, I guarantee you he was a verb (action)

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus was not talking about eternal life in this and other verses. If you read Matthew 23-25, you see that in Matthew 24:3, the disciples ask about "the end of the age." Jesus was talking about what is to come in the next age, the one that started when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. When you go to Revelation (Apocalypse) you find that it speaks about "ages of ages."

Rev 20:10
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

You see, there is more than one age yet to come. We don't know anything about them, how many there are, or how long each one will last. All we know is that the Bible speaks of "ages." The way most people think eschatologically is that there is the age we are in and then the end comes. That's it. But the promise is simply that in the next age, the wicked will be punished and corrected while the righteous enjoy life - true life - life with Christ, which is the real life. And they will continue to enjoy it forever, while the wicked are punished according to the degree of their guilt and until they are purged of all their wickedness.

Light of the East please see my post #168, above, where I quote the Eastern Greek Orthodox Matthew 25:46. where they transalted "aionios kolasis as eternal punishment. "Aionios" is an adjective, "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.

 

[Light of the East]

The problem with the post you quoted is some folks, to make scripture fit their assumptions/presuppositions, concoct their own definitions for Greek words. The Greek word "aionios" is an adjective, the English word "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.

A word cannot differ from its root. Aion is "age," therefore, to translate "aionios" as "eternal" is highly dishonest. If the root of aionios is age, then aionios must have something to do with an age.

 

[Light of the East]

Light of the East please see my post #168, above, where I quote the Eastern Greek Orthodox Matthew 25:46. where they transalted "aionios kolasis as eternal punishment. "Aionios" is an adjective, "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.

I will say again, the modern Greek has most likely been mangled by years of translational bias and misinformation. There is no way that the Greek-speaking Early Fathers such as St. Isaac of Syria and the Cappadocian Fathers would have misunderstood their own language. The Latin-speaking Roman Empire had a tremendous influence on the Church, especially in the West, but also in the East. Perhaps when you get to heaven you can look up these Greek-speaking Fathers and ask them why they were so ignorant of their own language and didn't translate the Koine Greek correctly.

 

[Der Alte]

What you fail to comprehend is that languages can be corrupted and changed over centuries of time. For instance, at one time, the word "gay" meant "happy" or "joyful." Now it means you are a sexual three-dollar bill. You fail to recognize this, and you fail also to recognize that many Greek speaking saints, such as St. Isaac of Syria, the Cappadocian Fathers, St. Gregory, and others all believed in the Scriptures and believed in Apokatastasis. So, your argument is that these Greek speaking Fathers didn't know their own language?

I have a firm belief that the meaning of the word "aionios" has changed with translators through the centuries. If you teach an error long enough, it becomes fact. The fact is that Latin translators did not know Greek and mangled the Greek Scriptures. I also know enough about the history of politics in the Roman Empire to know that scaring the hell out of people by threatening them with eternal burning is a great way to commandeer obedience from unruly subjects.

So you are saying that punishment is somehow a NOUN? Sorry, dude, but when my Paw whupped my butt as kid, I guarantee you he was a verb (action)

Your post is mostly irrelevant unsupported opinion. Whatever you "firmly believe" is not relevant in the absence of grammatical, lexical evidence which you have not provided.
I quoted the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation, their language has been Greek for 2000 years +/- and they are aware of any changes in their native language. Unlike you who does not know an aorist from an apple.

 

[LW97Nils]

The problem with the post you quoted is some folks, to make scripture fit their assumptions/presuppositions, concoct their own definitions for Greek words. The Greek word "aionios" is an adjective, the English word "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.

Amen.

 

[Der Alte]

A word cannot differ from its root. Aion is "age," therefore, to translate "aionios" as "eternal" is highly dishonest. If the root of aionios is age, then aionios must have something to do with an age.

Etymological fallacy! The primary meaning of "AION" is "eternity." Please do not try to lecture me on Greek grammar unless you provide credible grammatical or lexical evidence. Show me that so-called rule you are talking about from an accredited Greek grammar.

 

[Der Alte]

I will say again, the modern Greek has most likely been mangled by years of translational bias and misinformation. There is no way that the Greek-speaking Early Fathers such as St. Isaac of Syria and the Cappadocian Fathers would have misunderstood their own language. The Latin-speaking Roman Empire had a tremendous influence on the Church, especially in the West, but also in the East. Perhaps when you get to heaven you can look up these Greek-speaking Fathers and ask them why they were so ignorant of their own language and didn't translate the Koine Greek correctly.

Your unsupported opinion of what you consider "most likely" is irrelevant in the absence of accredited grammar or lexical evidence.

 

[Light of the East]

Your post is mostly irrelevant unsupported opinion. Whatever you "firmly believe" is not relevant in the absence of grammatical, lexical evidence which you have not provided.
I quoted the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation, their language has been Greek for 2000 years +/- and they are aware of any changes in their native language. Unlike you who does not know an aorist from an apple.

I may not know an aorist from an apple, but other Greek scholars do. The question then becomes why some Greek scholars insist that aionios means "age-lasting" while others fall into the Western translation.

 

[LW97Nils]

I may not know an aorist from an apple, but other Greek scholars do. The question then becomes why some Greek scholars insist that aionios means "age-lasting" while others fall into the Western translation.

Now, I do have some unorthodox views too on hell (AKA Sheol and Hades) and the Lake of Fire (which again, are two seperate places). I, like you, believe there is still a chance for post physical death salvation. But question is, is there one after the second death too?

 

[Light of the East]

The problem with the post you quoted is some folks, to make scripture fit their assumptions/presuppositions, concoct their own definitions for Greek words. The Greek word "aionios" is an adjective, the English word "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.

Except that adjectives meanings are defined by the noun they define. Example: a tall dog, a tall horse, a tall building. Is a tall dog the same "tall" as a "building." Nonsense. Universalists do admit that under certain circumstances, aionios can mean "eternal," but only when the noun it describes is GOD.


BTW - you have never addressed the issue I brought up regarding the character of a God who would create human beings for the sole purpose of tormenting them forever. We despise human beings who breed dogs for the sole purpose of being "bait" for training pit bulls to fight. We consider them as horrendous and evil human beings. Yet you have no problem with a God who, foreknowing that mankind would fall into sin, and by doing so, would condemn billions to an eternity of terrible torments, went ahead and did the creation anyway, which means that the Calvinists (and their atrocious doctrine of predestination to damnation) are correct and God intended torment for the billions from the very beginning. There is more to this issue than just a couple of Greek words. The whole character of God is at stake.

 

[Der Alte]

I may not know an aorist from an apple, but other Greek scholars do. The question then becomes why some Greek scholars insist that aionios means "age-lasting" while others fall into the Western translation.

I quoted a Bible translation by native Greek speaking scholars not some "scholar" who had to learn it as a second language as an adult. Everybody who claims to be a Greek or Hebrew "scholar" may not be. The "scholars" who you claim know more that the Greek scholars of EOB, which I quoted, very likely have an agenda. But I don't necessarily depend on "scholars." I can show quoting verses spoken by Jesus, Himself, that "aionios" indisputably means erternal/everlasting.

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[ζωὴν αἰώνιον/zoen aionion]
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[ζωὴν αἰώνιον/zoen aionion]​

In these two vss, Jesus has paralleled ζωὴν αἰώνιον/zoen aionion with "shall not perish," twice.
What further proof do you need? And I remind you again that aionios is an adjective and can never be translated as a noun, age.
Should you have questions about it aionion is the accusative, singular feminine of aionios.