Works Relation to Salvation

[Gary K]

Because Jesus said

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:18 - King James Version

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

www.biblegateway.com

Do you believe that when Jesus says the law or the prophets he is referring to just some of the law?

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:17 - King James Version

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

www.biblegateway.com

Yes. He makes sure we understand that too by telling us which laws are eternal. There will be no death in heaven so there will be no meat esting and the Sabbath will be kept there for eternity. So, the 10 commandments and the dietary laws will be kept eternally.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. He makes sure we understand that too by telling us which laws are eternal. There will be no death in heaven so there will be no meat esting and the Sabbath will be kept there for eternity. So, the 10 commandments and the dietary laws will be kept eternally.

Okay... Are you saying that when Jesus says he didn't come to destroy the law or the prophets, he means that he didn't come to destroy the ten commandments and the dietary laws or the prophets?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I'm not denying it. But God has completely changed my life. I was a drug using, cursing, swearing, effing this and effing that person for a long time. I was an alcoholic who drank himself sick from the first time I ever tasted alcohol. I was abused physically. emotionally, and sexually as a kid. I was so messed up that on our senior trip when I was in high school a girl I thought was the best looking girl in our high school came up to me and took my hand during a class walk on the beach and after holding hands with her for a couple of minutes I took off running away because I was so afraid she'd get bullied the way I had been all my life. As my wife told me when I trold her the story, I was a real misfit.

I had never had a close friend until a few years ago. Here I was in my mid sixties and never had had a close friend because of what bullying and abuse had done to me. You go through what I went through and you're positive if you let anyone get really close to you they will not like you because your entire immediate family didn't like you. I mean my own brother tried to murder me when I was in the eighth grade because he hated and feared me because he was the one who sexually abused me.


A few years ago God directly answered my prayer one day as I had been sitting one afternoon with the tears streaming down my face as I was wondering why everyone in my family had hated me. For some reason I had never taken that pain to God before but I started asking Him why He answered my prayer and revealed to me why. His answer made my entire life make sense in a moment and it never had before. I am now able to have close friends. I'm no longer afraid to share who I am.

God has performed many miracles in my life. He's saved my life multiple times and restored my mind after I tried my best to destroy it, deliberately. Why? Because the pain of being hated by my family hurt so bad that I couldn't handle life any more. I started doing that the year I graduated from high school. It continued until I was so burnt out I couldn't hold down a job and so full of anxiety I could barely breathe at times as I lost my cookies on acid one night..

So I know whereof I speask when I say God works miracle3s in our lives through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe He can make me holy in the here and now because of all the miraculous changes He's made in my life up to this point.

Today I understand why God allowed me to go through what I did. I'm the only kid in our family who loves God. He also performed all those miracles in my life so that I could tell others about His ability to change lives and save people from themselves as sin is very destructive. It makes us desire to destroy ourselves. The devil hates us because we were created in the image of God and the very last thing he wants us to know and believe is that God is infinitely more powerful than sin. I am extremely thankful today for what I went through as it gives me the ability to witness for God as to His power to change lives and His love for all of us including His enemies. He wants to save all of us but most people will not allow Him to.

I went so far as to ask the devil into my life. God saved me grom that too. He stopped the devil when he came to claim me after I was rebaptised as I was raised in a religious, but not Christian home.

God can work miracles of regeneration in all of our lives as His word has creative power, He spoke our world into existance and His word can recreare us back into His image the same way He created us to be. It jujst requires us to desire it and to believe it's possible. Without faith it is impossible yo please God and Jesus told us that it will be done to us according to our faith. So if you're tired of sinning ask Him, believing. to change your life. Just ask Him hoping He will and He will begin working miracles in your life. I know it works because at the depths of my despair caused by my own deliberate destruction of myself I used to walk around early in the morning and ask if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was real and that if He was would He show me He was. He did. And He will do it for anyone who asks. If He could do it for me, a hopeless basket case, He can do it for anyone.

All it requires from those people is the desire to change for the better aand the willingness to place themselves in His care and keeping. The same God who walked this earth and healed every sick. diseased, and demon possessed person in the villages He passed through will heal them too. He can bring us back to spiritual life just as surely as He brought the widow of Nain's son and Lazarus back to life.

I was somewhat familiar with your story from what you shared before, so I knew already that you said you still sin now but not like before. That's not unusual because we all sin. You may not want to say your current sins come from a sinful heart (i.e., the sinful flesh), and that is understandable too because it is scary to think about. But there is no other place for it to come from. And when you face up to it and take it to the Lord, you will find that He forgives you not only for your individual sins but for your sinfulness as well. There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1).

 

[Gary K]

Okay... Are you saying that when Jesus says he didn't come to destroy the law or the prophets, he means that he didn't come to destroy the ten commandments and the dietary laws or the prophets?

Exactly. He inspired the OT, so why would He come to destroy it? You need to understand how far the Jews had walked away from God. They had gone so far away from Him when He showed up they murdered Him. That is an extreme level of hate. It means they were basically demon inspired.

 

[Gary K]

I was somewhat familiar with your story from what you shared before, so I knew already that you said you still sin now but not like before. That's not unusual because we all sin. You may not want to say your current sins come from a sinful heart (i.e., the sinful flesh), and that is understandable too because it is scary to think about. But there is no other place for it to come from. And when you face up to it and take it to the Lord, you will find that He forgives you not only for your individual sins but for your sinfulness as well. There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1).

Our sins don't come from a sinful heart once we are converted and give ourselves over to God's control We are made of sinful flesh. We are completely carnal until we are born again. Remember Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Then Paul goes on to tell us the cure for our sinful flesh.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The Bible can't be understood from a surface reasding of it. Much of what it teaches us is learned by implied reasoning. It stretches our minds to come in contact with God's infinite mind. It's another one of His limitless number of blessings He has given us.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Our sins don't come from a sinful heart once we are converted and give ourselves over to God's control We are made of sinful flesh. We are completely carnal until we are born again. Remember Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus?



Then Paul goes on to tell us the cure for our sinful flesh.



The Bible can't be understood from a surface reasding of it. Much of what it teaches us is learned by implied reasoning. It stretches our minds to come in contact with God's infinite mind. It's another one of His limitless number of blessings He has given us.

Since you know the Bible, please, please, please tell me where a believer's sins come from. It looks like you agreed with me that it comes from flesh when you said we are made of sinful flesh.

 

[Leaf473]

Okay... Are you saying that when Jesus says he didn't come to destroy the law or the prophets, he means that he didn't come to destroy the ten commandments and the dietary laws or the prophets?

Exactly. He inspired the OT, so why would He come to destroy it? You need to understand how far the Jews had walked away from God. They had gone so far away from Him when He showed up they murdered Him. That is an extreme level of hate. It means they were basically demon inspired.

Okay... And when Jesus says,

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:19 - King James Version

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

www.biblegateway.com

He means
Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of the ten commandments and the dietary laws, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven?

 

[Gary K]

Since you know the Bible, please, please, please tell me where a believer's sins come from. It looks like you agreed with me that it comes from flesh when you said we are made of sinful flesh.

I do think our sins come from our sinful flesh. And that is why God's solution for sin is so great, With His power within our lives we can freely choose to sin or not sin. It's the infinite genius of God on display. He has given us back our free moral agent ability

 

[Gary K]

Okay... And when Jesus says,

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:19 - King James Version

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

www.biblegateway.com

He means
Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of the ten commandments and the dietary laws, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven?

It's a figure of speech. The devil teaches people to break the commandments. Is he going to be in heaven?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I do think our sins come from our sinful flesh. And that is why God's solution for sin is so great, With His power within our lives we can freely choose to sin or not sin. It's the infinite genius of God on display. He has given us back our free moral agent ability

Finally, thank you! That was so hard that I hesitate to move farward, but I will.

Our sins come form our sinful flesh. Our righteousness comes from the union of the new man with the Spirit of God. Does "our free moral agency" change the sinfulness of the flesh (to make it better) or the righteousness of the new man (to make it worse)? Spoiler: the answer is an emphatic "No", and I can provide Scriptural support if needed.

 

[Gary K]

Finally, thank you! That was so hard that I hesitate to move farward, but I will.

Our sins come form our sinful flesh. Our righteousness comes from the union of the new man with the Spirit of God. Does "our free moral agency" change the sinfulness of the flesh (to make it better) or the righteousness of the new man (to make it worse)? Spoiler: the answer is an emphatic "No", and I can provide Scriptural support if needed.

And I can supply scripture to refute your misreading of scripture. Do you think I lied about all the changes in my life? If not, how do you explain them other than the power of God to change lives?

I'm always amazed when people think sin is more powerful than God. How can that be when God is going to destroy the devil? If the devil and sin were more powerful than God the devil would have kicked God out of heaven, not the other way around. God is the creator and infinte in power. The devil is a created being and finite. It always amazers me when I think about how the devil thought he could win against his own creator. It was pure insanity, but then that is what sin causes..

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And I can supply scripture to refute your misreading of scripture. Do you think I lied about all the changes in my life? If not, how do you explain them other than the power of God to change lives?

I think I understand your answer. You're saying that the changes in your life prove that your flesh is less corrupt now than it was before you were saved. Is that right? I don't find Scriptural support for that. I find the opposite: "the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22).

The reality is that the difference in a person's life after he is saved is not because his flesh becomes less sinful. It is because he is separated from his sinful flesh (through dying with Christ) and is united with Him in new life (through the resurrection from the dead). These things are spiritual, of course. The flesh remains just as sinful as before, but the spirit of the new man is alive because of righteousness (Romans 8:10).

I'm always amazed when people think sin is more powerful than God. How can that be when God is going to destroy the devil? If the devil and sin were more powerful than God the deviil would have kicked God out of heaven, not the other way around. God is the cretor and infinte in power. The devil is a created being and finite. It always amazers me when I think about how the devil thought he could win against his own creator. It was pure insanity, but then that is what sin causes..

This is too painful. I really want to help you. But you keep throwing barbs at me. In this post alone, instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, you just accuse me of misreading Scripture. And this last paragraph is rediculous. I have also had to ignore your previous substantive insults. But continuing to discuss things with you is not worth it without mutual respect.

 

[Gary K]

I think I understand your answer. You're saying that the changes in your life prove that your flesh is less corrupt now than it was before you were saved. Is that right? I don't find Scriptural support for that. I find the opposite: "the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22).

The reality is that the difference in a person's life after he is saved is not because his flesh becomes less sinful. It is because he is separated from his sinful flesh (through dying with Christ) and is united with Him in new life (through the resurrection from the dead). These things are spiritual, of course. The flesh remains just as sinful as before, but the spirit of the new man is alive because of righteousness (Romans 8:10).

This is too painful. I really want to help you. But you keep throwing barbs at me. In this post alone, instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, you just accuse me of misreading Scripture. And this last paragraph is rediculous. I have also had to ignore your previous substantive insults. But continuing to discuss things with you is not worth it without mutual respect.

You're still misunderstanding me. I've never claimed that our sinful flesh will ever change before heaven. It is our characters that God changes by changing our desires and thus our habits. Does a sinful honest man lie on a regular basis? No, because he has made it a habit to tell the truth. When God changes our desires through the indwelling of the HS He changes our habits. We therefore become far less likely to sin on an every day basis.

I have never insulted you. Do you insult me when you disagree with how I read scripture? No. So why do you think I insult you when I say you misread scripture? You're telling me the same thing when you disagree with me.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You're still misunderstanding me. I've never claimed that our sinful flesh will ever change before heaven. It is our characters that God changes by changing our desires and thus our habits. Does a sinful honest man lie on a regular basis? No, because he has made it a habit to tell the truth. When God changes our desires through the indwelling of the HS He changes our habits. We therefore become far less likely to sin on an every day basis.

I have never insulted you. Do you insult me when you disagree with how I read scripture? No. So why do you think I insult you when I say you misread scripture? You're telling me the same thing when you disagree with me.

OK, We'll go on then.

So you agree with me that the flesh is sinful and does not improve over time, and that the new man is truly righteous and holy and does not degrade over time? I couldn't tell because you just said I was misreading Scripture and was denying the power of God.

 

[Leaf473]

It's a figure of speech.

Okay... And the commandments in the figure of speech, are those the ten commandments and the dietary laws?

The devil teaches people to break the commandmens.Is he going to be in heaven?

No, I don't think so.

 

[Leaf473]

I think I understand your answer. You're saying that the changes in your life prove that your flesh is less corrupt now than it was before you were saved. Is that right? I don't find Scriptural support for that. I find the opposite: "the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22).

The reality is that the difference in a person's life after he is saved is not because his flesh becomes less sinful. It is because he is separated from his sinful flesh (through dying with Christ) and is united with Him in new life (through the resurrection from the dead). These things are spiritual, of course. The flesh remains just as sinful as before, but the spirit of the new man is alive because of righteousness (Romans 8:10).

This is too painful. I really want to help you. But you keep throwing barbs at me. In this post alone, instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, you just accuse me of misreading Scripture. And this last paragraph is rediculous. I have also had to ignore your previous substantive insults. But continuing to discuss things with you is not worth it without mutual respect.

I agree that posts that do not reflect the kindness and gentleness aspects of the fruit of the Spirit have no place on a Christian forum.

 

[Gary K]

Okay... And the commandments in the figure of speech, are those the ten commandments and the dietary laws?


No, I don't think so.

Yes. That's what I said earlier.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is a really odd question. Why would you point to laws designed to pass away? You're implying that God's eternal law is going to stop being in existence when the Bible tells us it is not.

From new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath. Is this saying that people will worship on the sabbath or everyday? If you’re going to say that this is evidence that we must observe the sabbath then you must also conclude that this is also evidence that we must observe the new moon feasts and rituals, but how does that line up with Colossians 2:16?

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If “from sabbath to sabbath” means we are to continue to observe the Sabbath then from new moon to new moon must by that same reasoning mean that we must observe the new moon rituals which directly contradicts what Paul wrote.

The passage is saying that we will worship everyday.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's a figure of speech. The devil teaches people to break the commandments. Is he going to be in heaven?

The devil also teaches people that justification is the result of obedience to the law. That’s why Paul told the Galatians that they had been severed from Christ and had fallen from grace, because they believed the deception coming from the Judaisers.

The devil also quoted scripture to Jesus in the wilderness. he not only uses disobedience as a way to trick people into condemnation but also unbelief, self righteous, and pride. Now I’m not attributing any of these to what you’re teaching my friend because I don’t think that you are a follower of satan I just believe that your example here is invalid. In the case of the Galatians they had not broken any of the commitments but they had fallen from grace just the same.

 

[Gary K]

From new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath. Is this saying that people will worship on the sabbath or everyday? If you’re going to say that this is evidence that we must observe the sabbath then you must also conclude that this is also evidence that we must observe the new moon feasts and rituals, but how does that line up with Colossians 2:16?

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If “from sabbath to sabbath” means we are to continue to observe the Sabbath then from new moon to new moon must by that same reasoning mean that we must observe the new moon rituals which directly contradicts what Paul wrote.

The passage is saying that we will worship everyday.

I don't know as I have never felt any guilt about not observing anything to do with the new moons. That's not true about the Sabbath.

The only thing the Bible says on the subject is that the new moon rites exist. There is nothing else about them. No description and no commands to follow them.

Thanks for bringing that up as I just learned something I never knew before.